Did anyone else find the ending of this film totally out of place? I mean the film was so realistic and honest throughout and then suddenly it ends in a dream sequence. More so the ending seemed to sugar coat the actual tragic end to this mans great life. Why sugar coat such perversion and horror?
shareI believe Wajda refused to film the factual ending because it would just be too "grotesque".
I find the ending appropriate because it implies that the spirit of the children lives on "elsewhere" as in Israel.
Ultimately, I believe that to be the "factual" ending of the holocaust.
I can't generate much interest in discussing the holocaust any other way. And I think ultimately the audience for which this film was made feel the same.
This is probably my favorite holocaust-related film for that reason though "The Pianist" is hard to beat for its historical accuracy and "Schindler's List" is hard to beat for its sentiment. "Korczak" seems to balance the three with unusually moving results.
I have no complaints about this film and find it all-encompassing emotionally and promotes the most hopeful and positive messages to the viewer.
Because you wouldn't eat your beets, Aunt Nellie is working the streets!
I'm not a big fan of this ending. Obviously, Wajda couldn't possibly show the realistic ending a la Grey Zone but he could have ended it with the train disappearing into the fog, which would be more literal than this a bit Catholic-ish metaphorical ending. From what I read it was Holland's idea and at that time, she had a somewhat annoying penchant for dream sequences(Europa,Europa).
shareHello again NuYorkie! How are you? Hope all is well and that you weren't anywhere near France on 11/13/2015.
I'm in the minority in my high opinion of "Korczak" and I've read Claude Lanzmann's condemnation of the film, yet being familiar with Lanzmann's work I find them to be more of a political necessity than "artistic triumphs" or historical documentaries, so I really don't admire his work enough to regard his views in my opinion of this film.
I've never seen "Europa, Europa" but I'm familiar with Holland and her film "In Darkness" which I did not admire, finding its "warts and all" honesty undignified. I have put it on my "watch again before you condemn" list so you may see me posting on that board sometime in the near future. I haven't pursued any of her other films for this reason though "Europa, Europa" seems to be highly recommended and this may change my viewing options.
There is a significant amount of Catholic imagery in "Korczak" which I found a bit jarring, especially the halo miraculously appearing over the head of the boy when he was crying over his absence at his mother's death. I always expect foreign films to have a bit of "national weirdness" in them and have a tendency to recognize but gloss over such inexplicable artistic flourishes. Since the film specifically was made for a Polish audience, mostly Catholic, this "weirdness" just makes sense to me.
Both "Korczak" and "Schindler's List" were designed to have a subtle pro-Israeli ending and I find the imagery in "Korczak" more palatable than the "everybody hates you so you have no place to go" ending delivered by the Soviet soldier in Schindler. Though arguably historically accurate, I'm reminded that the Communists were crucial in the rebirth of Poland (twice) as well as the partitioning of Palestine and the Israeli state. I liken my emotional response at this scene to finding out ones mother was a whore (twice) and ones father a child molester.
The Jews return to the Holy Land likely was a dream to them at the time their orphans were murdered in Treblinka, and I thought the ending captured this dream coming true nicely while refuting the age old cliche that Poland was a "heaven" for the Jews.
It all just "worked" for me.
Actually, if I were working with Wajda at the time, I might have recommended the inclusion of Judy Garland singing "Over the Rainbow" as the credits rolled.
That addition would be my tinge of "national weirdness".
Because you wouldn't eat your beets, Aunt Nellie is working the streets!
Hey there,
I was in Europe for a while but not in France. My good friend's friend died in that Parisian club though :( Was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Going back to Korczak, I do have a high opinion of the movie itself,especially of Pszoniak in the title role; I'd just prefer a simpler yet memorable ending. I think you're completely right in your interpretation of its Zionist message. Lanzmann made a big deal out of it but Holland is a tough broad who bit back after his critique by saying "he thinks he owns the Holocaust" (because of his monumental documentary Shoah). I respect his work however, for better or worse, he is clearly obsessively maniacal and dictatorial about this subject.
Holland herself can be quite brilliant, very sensitive and knowledgeable about the complicated polish-jewish history, but not without a fatal flaw - an urge to add something that makes sense to her but ultimately spoils the soup. "In Darkness" had its strengths - the leading man and the story, it could have been her "Das Boot". Check out "Europa, Europa" (which, in its original German version ran under a more appropriate title - " Hitlerjunge Salomon")and let's see what you think about those cheesy dream sequences I mentioned. Still, I like her guts and these two movies.
Don't get me started on the simple-minded historical shortcuts and inaccuracies of Schindler's List. What was supposed to be a historical lesson for the general audience, often turned into Raiders of the Lost Ark. Btw, Spielberg got the idea of using b/w format from Korczak, a fact he graciously acknowledged in SL credits.
Out of all WWII movies, till this day, I'm haunted by the scenes from "Come and See". In comparison, SL feels like "Lassie come home" dripping with schmaltzy emotions. I know what to expect from Spielberg so I was prepared and I accept his brilliance with his flaws.
Hi NuYorkie: My friend's daughter, who is also my sister-in-law's niece, was in Paris at the time and eating few blocks away at a Bistro so heard the explosions when they happened. I'll get more intimate details when I see her at Thanksgiving and have every intention of accusing her of masterminding the terrorist attack via my Drunk Uncle Syndrome routine. She should've gone to Italy as I told her July 4th! After all, none of us are French!
I don't think there will ever be an all-encompassing holocaust film that pleases everyone, that's why one has to watch a lot of them to absorb everything that happened. Too often they involve what didn't happen, though.
I feel just as bilious watching people in a sewer engaged in sweaty sex as in "In Darkness" as I do with cute little Jewish Ghetto police in "Schindler's List". There is always something included that annoys me. The films that annoy me the least are "The Pianist" and "Diary of Anne Frank". Both of them emphasize "loss" as a major theme and the degree of "loss" seems to make for the most sympathetic characters.
Then there is the film "Korczak" which looks for the best in humanity in inhuman times in an environment when even "goodness" and the search for dignity is a liability. It is hard to view Dr. Korczak as a hero because he educated, washed and dressed up his orphans then marched them peacefully onto a train headed for Treblinka...but is that really what he did? Was that his point? Was that the message of the film?
No. He maintained a civilized childhood for his orphans for as long as he could. They were, after all, only children who should not have to face the stress and struggle of an evil reality.
The viewer is confronted with numerous moral questions. The enemy was pretty much everything else that was interfering with his orphan's childhood...but was shutting it all out the answer...and teaching them to accept death as a "gentle" thing? Might they have been better off radicalized? Was "Korczak" a fool? Did he sacrifice those children...or did he just face the reality that they couldn't survive without him? What a terrific moral dilemma to have forced upon him! Poor man.
I keep hearing excellent things about "Come and See", but I want to watch "Beyond the Steppes" first. The version in my library claims to have subtitles but I found none when I loaned it and had to turn it off. Looks good though it's not exactly a holocaust film, only WW2 related and I'm interested in what went on in what was once Eastern Poland during Soviet Occupation. I have a copy of Wajda's "Katyn" which I feel is a very good film and I think the subject of the fourth partition pregnant with dramatic possibilities.
Keep well. The holiday season is upon us with all it's turkeys, twinkling lights and revelry. Much as I dread this expensive time of year, I can't wait for the first heavy snow when there are Christmas lights on display. It's so peaceful. May no explosives mar the effect.
Because you wouldn't eat your beets, Aunt Nellie is working the streets!
When deportations started, Korczak was offered a way out of the ghetto, fake papers and a place to hide by Zegota/Polish underground that was trying to save valuable members of Jewish intelligentsia. He refused despite being aware what fate awaited him and his orphans. He devoted much of his life to children, especially the unprivileged yet under the circumstances there was not much he could do for them besides keeping them alive with dignity. They were helpless, hungry and often sick but as long as one lives, one has hope.
I think The Pianist is one of those rare cases. Come and See is another but more as a horror war movie. Some are put off by theatrical acting style(which was partially cultural) and a slower tempo but both fit the atmosphere of those remote Belorussian dwellings and externalize the trauma of a child caught in the ghastliness and cruelty of war. It's disturbingly authentic.
Personally, I'm disappointed with "Katyn". Knowing Wajda's best work, I expected more than a Polish "Schindler's List". I think he is too emotionally invested in the topic since his father was murdered there. It hits too close to home. Polanski turned down directing SL for similar reasons. Besides that, there were other issues in Keneally's historical fiction script that he as the actual survivor of the Cracow ghetto wouldn't agree with.
I'm glad Katyn was made, it needed to be made, maybe for the same reason Spielberg made SL - to educate broad audiences about this event - and I'm pleased to read that many foreign viewers like it for what it is.
What spoiled it for me was too much pathos, unnecessary schmaltzy moments, weak sub-plots and bad acting of some characters(line delivery is often on a sitcom level; thankfully this gets lost on non-Polish speakers) with the exception of the Russian officer character and maybe few others.
Frankly I'm not big on the whole Anne Frank cult. Her "coming of age" story is very sheltered in comparison to what others were going through in the ghettos, concentration camps etc. If she survived, I doubt the diary would have become such a wide read best-seller. It made a perfect high-school reading material though. No exposure to nasty stuff I had to read about in school like Borowski, for example, even if his writings are considered art in the war literature category.
Btw, are you familiar with his short stories? Here's the most famous one, just don't read it before your Thanksgiving meal lol
https://cc136.k12.sd.us/thiswayforgasstory.pdf
Speaking of the hollies, I wish you a tranquil Thanksgiving with no explosives :)
Hey NuYorkie:
I just found this article on Yahoo about Poland trying to finance a major Hollywood film concerning an incident in Polish History to boost their image abroad. I've included the story below.
Which historical episode would you recommend?
Polish conservatives plan 'patriotic' Hollywood film to boost image
WARSAW | By Justyna Pawlak
Poland's new conservative rulers think their country faces an image problem abroad and they want Hollywood to produce a Polish equivalent of "Braveheart" or "Pearl Harbor" to promote their country's positive place in history.
They believe a major movie would make Poland feel proud of its achievements and win it more respect on the world stage at a time when many citizens are falling behind financially.
Critics say the government wants to exploit growing feelings of nationalism in order to boost its popularity and divert public attention from economic problems.
But, by putting an emphasis on patriotism, the government also risks stirring up more xenophobia at a time when Europe is grappling with a massive influx of refugees from the Middle East.
"There is no internationally recognised film about Polish history. I regret this," Culture Minister Piotr Glinski told Reuters in an interview.
"Why is this important? Every community needs something that brings it together ... in order to build its strength and to win, or rather, not to lose, on the world stage. Economically and politically," he said.
Glinski's eurosceptic Law and Justice party (PiS) won an election in October promising greater economic equality and a nationalist response to growing influence from Brussels.
PiS has since announced plans for a major public relations campaign at home and abroad, including the possible film venture, as well as a drive to make schools, theatres and public television promote more patriotic themes.
Glinski, who is the most senior member of the cabinet after the prime minister, said the film could for example tell the story of the 1683 battle of Vienna or the 1944 battle of Monte Cassino, the latter one of the toughest in World War Two.
In Vienna, Poles helped defeat the Turks in what marked the end of the Ottoman Empire's expansion into Europe.
"Almost every wartime story of a Polish soldier is a ready-made script," Glinski said. The film would "tell the world who has protected our civilisation".
Asked if there were any movies that could serve as a model for the government's plans, he said: "Yes, there are many, particularly American ones: Saving Private Ryan or Pearl Harbor. The well-known patriotic production about the heroic history of the Scots – Braveheart – can also be used as an example."
Glinski said the goal was a "Hollywood-level" film and the government had been in touch with potential producers, although he did not say who they were.
COMPLICATED PAST
Another subject Glinski said should be addressed was Poland's relations with its Jewish community during the Nazi Holocaust, potentially reopening a painful debate that has dominated the Polish media in recent years.
A series of books and films have revealed that Poles were not only the victims of the Nazis but, sometimes, also the perpetrators of crimes against the Jews.
This has raised questions of collective guilt and reconciliation in a nation taught to believe under communism that, with a few exceptions, it had conducted itself honourably during a war that killed a fifth of the population.
It has also contradicted the view of many Poles that their centuries-old cohabitation with Jews was one of the most harmonious in Europe. Of the six million Jews who died during the Holocaust, about half had been living in Poland.
"Poland's image abroad suffers because, sometimes, Poland is said to be co-responsible for the Holocaust," Glinski said. "It is disturbing that Poland is ascribed fault here."
Last year, the Polish drama "Ida", a story of a Polish-Jewish orphan searching for her identity and family history, won the Oscar for best foreign language film but attracted heavy criticism from Polish nationalist groups.
Its director says the film - in which the protagonist is told by her parents' Polish neighbour that he killed them during the war - is a tale of human experience not history.
But some in Poland said it misrepresented reality.
Glinski said Poland could make a film about a Polish family that had hidden Jews from the Nazis during the war, in an effort to contradict revelations that some Poles had actively helped the Nazis in their genocidal campaign.
Critics say reopening the issue would damage Poland's efforts to come to terms with its complicated past.
"Every nation is guilty of something," said Konstanty Gebert, an expert with the European Council on Foreign Relations, a think-tank, in Warsaw.
"But that image improves when you discuss it and admit to it. This can earn you respect."
If your wife is a wicked witch, you're a flying monkey.
All I can say is good luck to them. And btw, Glinski is a total moron, just like the rest of that pathetic party. The new government is taking a swing at the Constitutional Tribunal trying to install a dictatorship. People are already on the streets protesting like it's the 80's all over again.
Nonetheless, it would be nice to have a major blockbuster. Dunno, maybe a remake of "Teutonic Knights" would be good - a cross between Braveheart and Gladiator.
Poland has made zillions of historical movies, the most famous being a trilogy based on Sienkiewicz's books about XVII c. history. Poland was invaded by every-freakin'-body: Turks, Tartars, Mongols, Russians, Germans, even Swedes swam across the Baltic Sea lol so there's plenty of material to make 100 computer games that could be released together with the movie.
Actually, my favorite in the trilogy is "Colonel Wolodyjowski" ("Pan Wolodyjowski" in Polish) that has enough good characters and story to be re-made into a cool movie for the American audience with American narration style - minimal historical blabber, lots of action + plus love stories(the original has it all). So, voila.
At some point, I re-watched this movie with English subtitles and it was rather funny how the distributors couldn't translate a very flowery language of the XVII c. into its English equivalent. Instead, they used contemporary English and it often sounded ridiculous especially when the main character was addressed. There's a very particular polite form of addressing people using Mr./Mrs + first name that doesn't really exist in English so instead of using "Mr. Michael" or "Sir Michael" they just went for " Michael." lol.
The last one of the above mentioned trilogy was called " With Fire and Sword", the most expensive movie in the history of Polish cinematography and I don't think this would be the right candidate.
I found hilarious mock trailers called " If Americans made.... With Fire and Sword" The Teutonic Knights Order and others, with fake dialogs of course, but that would be pretty much how the Hollywood version would look like.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3Aj3hpWgHE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgktFbRcSm0
Hi NuYorkie: Thanks for your reply. I purchased the Sienkiewicz Trilogy on DVD but found "Pan Wolodyjowski" the weakest, maybe because of the translation or maybe because it was made in 1968, it just didn't hold my interest and I barely remember it.
My personal recommendation would be the story of the extermination of the Prus Tribe by the Teutonic Knights through the Battle of Grunwald (Tannenburg) as told in James Michener's "Poland". That story may appeal to all the WW2 and Lord of the Rings movie-goers, and easily paves the way for sequels and video games based upon the novel. I think they need to add "The Deluge" to the narrative, though, as James Michener seemed to skip this very important section (too confusing, no doubt). The movie version and sequels of this novel may actually bring moviegoers into the theater who have no prior interest in Poland because James Michener still has a lot of fans even though he's been dead almost 20 years.
As far as Polish politics, I've watched the protests in Poland on You Tube and was originally sympathetic but ended up rather appalled. I actually applaud Poland for standing up to the European Union and Germany about the Syrian refugees, after all, why would Poland import anti-Semitic groups when so many tourists visiting Poland are Jewish? I understand this position perfectly. But I was rather put off when they had signs saying "No Jews! No LGBT!" In my opinion, that just made the whole country look ultra-Catholic with all the primitivism and intolerance that comes with it. To my knowledge, Jews and gays have not been blowing up people while they eat at restaurants, so why was this included! Suddenly the protestors just looked like fascist thugs! I have to blame the government for not reigning these people in and adding these positions.
And after all my Russian bashing, looks like the United States is going to be courting Russia again. I'm supportive of Trump normally, and he's right that the U.S. has to get along with the rest of the world, but his bromance with Putin made me put the brakes on! That "swing to the Right" anytime the Republicans take charge is just so jarring and unsettling for me I get a little nauseous even though I know a lot of what they do needs to be done.
Back to the film...We'll see how this movie goes for them, and I hope they realize that a film that serves only their interests is propaganda, just like in the bad-old-days of communism. They really need to look at the bottom line and return on investment like true capitalists. If they do, they may achieve their desired goal. So I'll recommend Michener's novel in 3 or 4 films. At least there may be an existing market of filmgoers for a series of Hollywood Films amongst Michener fans.
If your wife is a wicked witch, you're a flying monkey.
The demonstrations you are writing about are not the recent ones I'm talking about :)People are protesting illegal maneuvers of the new government to remove the last vestige of supreme constitutional power that stays in their way to establish authoritarian rule.
The ones against Syrian refuges were a disgusting display of the worst in Poland. Seeing this, you can imagine the same wave of antisemitism in the 30's after Endecja came to power, by exactly the same type of people who are in power now. Muslims became the new Jews. But, not only right-wingers and nationalists behave insane. Thousands of people liked a meme with the gates and rails to Auschwitz Birkenau inviting Syrian refugees there with comments/hate speech so vile that made my stomach churn.
Google translate this :
http://wyborcza.pl/duzyformat/1,146230,18447691,dlaczego-5-tys-polakow-polubilo-mem-z-muzulmanami-i-torami.html?disableRedirects=true
Despite the fact that Germans created a mess with the refugees and have serious issues that everyone, including myself, are concerned about, I'll not, ever, support anyone with quasi-fascist ideas - here or over there. The funny part is there are between 15- 25,000 Muslims living in Poland already and these protesting, hysterical twits are not even aware of that. Not to mention, those pseudo-patriots do not represent what Poland historically stood for. Till 1945 it was a melting pot of nations, just like the US, where minorities and religions (catholic, protestant, jewish, russian and greek-orthodox and islam )co-existed for centuries. Polish citizens were Jews, Ukraininas, Lithuanians, Germans, Tartars, Gypsies, Karaim and others. Poland became a cultural and ethnic monolith after WW II.
Going back to movies, I always loved the "Little Knight" character and Basia who had spunk. The translation is god-awful indeed and all funny Zagloba's remarks were completely lost yet, the film had more "personal" plots and not as much historical droning. My favorite part was Basia's escape from Azja's unwanted advances in the middle of snowy nowhere. The scene when the ice cracked underneath her galloping horse and they fell with into the frozen water made me very sad as a child and now too when I watched that poor horse drown, just to find out the other horse, she accidentally let go, was eaten by the wolves :( You could make a great action adventure movie out of her various troubles alone. I could totally see blond Anjelina Jolie playing her :) Finally a fun female character among the constant macho sword rattling. Other movies featured bland female characters similar to Krystyna, Colonel's first love who played a lute and looked beautiful. Her character and story were not as developed and could be spiced up since she was the object of love of two men and best friends at that.
Did you see the 1999 " With Fire and Sword"? If not, check it out. To me, the only interesting character was Bohun, with beautiful wild eyes and sensual, deep singing voice played by a Russian heart-throb, Sasha Domogarov. His object of desire played by Iza Scorupco was another example of gorgeous Slavic beauty who has to choose between the righteous Polish nobleman and a hot-blooded Cossack lol.
The old Teutonic Knights Order movie has many good subplots and of course, the whole regalia that makes it cool. Actually the battle scenes were top notch in those movies filmed without CGI. I wouldn't mind seeing an updated version made in Hollywood.