I can't believe how bad this movie was. - King of New York (1991) Discussion

[–] matandocabos777 18 years ago

I respect your opinion on the film But why would you waste your time if you hated it so much? KINDA pathetic.

ps this was a independant film and to this day is not appreciated aka underrated, what boggles my mind is that people can say this and that about this film calling it the worst and crap like that, but it makes me laugh because this film is great while films like battlefield 2000 or torque or even the fast and the furious are horrible plotless and plain and simple retarted. Not king of new york though its a great movie but not for everyone especially if you as i expect have never seen a film by Abel Ferrara his movies are tough but worth it. Stick to your Hollywood mainstream Bull*hit!!!!!!!!!

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[–] SteDevote 18 years ago

Actually, I've never seen any of the three movies you mentioned. My point is that with this cast, this movie could have been very, very good. I gave it a try early, but after the scene with the gloves, I realized it was a train wreck. It was to be laughed at after that. And I did laugh at it.

And why is criticizing a movie any more or less pathetic than coming here to praise it? This is a discussion board. My criticism stimulates discussion. That's kind of the point of being here.

I'm just here trying to figure out if anybody knows why it went so horribly wrong. Somebody in an early post put it together in a way I understand. I think Abel tried to make this movie both stylish and gritty, and failed at both.

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[–] selfishbastid 18 years ago

I had no problem with the cast in this movie. Fishburne is obnoxious and believable. Caruso is a great dick of a cop. Snipes is the perfect Uncle Tom. Walken is brilliantly detatched from emotion or empathy of any sort. The shots were all impeccably timed out to just the right time of night/morning, so it has that deep blue throughout. It's as realistic as Scarface, it just didn't get any press, I guess the mainstream audience was more suited towards a trite piece of dung like New Jack City.

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[–] Zuider_Zee 11 years ago

Snipes was an Uncle Tom? What the hell were you smoking when you wrote this BS?

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[–] sommert-507-32566 11 years ago

I think I understand what you mean. This was a grade A cast, but the movie itself didn't live up to the actors potentials, except maybe Walken's role. It's not so much it's bad as it underperformed from its potential (for me)

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[–] There_Will_Be_Plainview 14 years ago

I agree fully with SteDevote. This movie is a train wreck. The writing was laughably bad at many, many moments. I loved Walken in The Deer Hunter, and Fishbourne in The Matrix. I was surprised at how bad they managed to be, purely as a result of the terrible script. For example:

Frank White: How come you never came to see me?
Jump: Who wanted to see you in a cage, man?
Frank White: Oh, right. (or something like that)

The way this exchange was handled was just laughably bad.

The direction was also horrible. It was incoherent, and contained way too many changes in tone, especially with Christohpher Walken's character. A cast like this deserves a much better script and director.

My rating: 2/10

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[–] irwin25 14 years ago

how about go and direct a movie yourself....then let us pick it apart ok? until then....stfu

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[–] There_Will_Be_Plainview 14 years ago

Hey, don't get so defensive. A film watcher is a consumer, and the director, producer, actors, etc, make the product. I was displeased with it. If I go to a store, pay for a soda, and the soda tastes like crap, I have every right to say what I didn't like about it, and can even show displeasure toward the company that puts the drink out (assuming it's the company's fault, not the store's). I paid money to watch the movie, and was displeased. This is a film message board, so I wrote about why I was displeased. Why don't you write the same message you just wrote to me, to every single person on IMDB who has ever given any movie a bad review. Do I need to have made my own soda, before I say that a certain brand's drink tastes horrible?

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[–] irwin25 14 years ago

well the point is you keep going on and on about the horrible directing. most people are sick of hearing this scape-goat critique of a film. it is almost as bad as saying 'this movie sucked' and giving no real reason. you cannot fault a directer for their filming style for the same reason you cannot fault a photographer for their shooting style. it is THEIR interpretation and if you do not like it, that is one thing, but you cannot say a movie was directed horribly because it didn't suite your style. of course, their are people behind the lens that should never have been behind it (IE: Coleman Francis, Bill Rebane) and yes, those movies may have had technically bad directing but even those are debatable because once again, it is THEIR view. The technical flubs aside. so in closing, all I am saying is hate a movie, go ahead, that is fine, but pick real reasons instead of the tired. There are many films that were not technically brilliant or directed proficiently but are still classics.

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[–] There_Will_Be_Plainview 14 years ago

I did not only critique the directing, I also said that the dialogue sucked. Also, directing can suck. Would you say Ed Wood was a fine director, it was just his vision?

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[–] DJ-Ren 14 years ago

Sorry - it took me a few minutes for my body to recover from the shock that people would say this was a BAD movie. They spent FIVE YEARS writing this movie - admittedly it was deeper than 99% of other "gangster/crime" movies, but why would that make it bad? Walken's character was intense and deep. He had spent most of his life in prison (starting in childhood, as we see when the "older cop" pulls up Frank White's rap sheet); he was a deeply conflicted soul (he WANTS to keep the Bronx Children's Hospital open, but the chinese guy with the barrels of coke calls Frank "crazy" for wanting to do so... so Frank reacts with violence; same situation with Artie Clay - he wants to work out a deal, Artie says no, so Frank reacts with what he learned in prison - violence); and the scene with the gloves (that everyone is hating on) shows us more of Frank's sensitivity (he's genuinely sad that Jimmy Jump didn't visit him in prison, but when Jimmy brushes away the question with a sneer and a snide remark ["Who wants to see you in a cage, man?"], Frank wants to react with sadness, but instead acts like he completely agrees with Jimmy's reasoning.

Not to mention this is a "first" in many ways. Other than "Breakin'" or "Wild Style", no other films had rap soundtracks at that time. But Abel Ferrara not only used rap songs at critical moments, but he used very underground rap, namely tracks by the Original Gangster Rapper Schoolly D. I would give ANYTHING to get the remix of "Am I Black Enough For You" used during the police-dressed-as-gangstas raid on Frank's crib.

Just my (and millions of other's people's) humble opinion.

"I am insane... and you are my insanity" - James Cole, 12 Monkeys

-ak

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[–] moviestar26 14 years ago

'I didn't want to see you in a cage'. Fran didn't agree with his answer. He just accepted it.

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[–] DJ-Ren 14 years ago

But it's HOW he accepted it. Like I said, he was sadenned by the response, but what's he gonna do - start crying? So he "manned up" (like he's been doing his whole life), and just put on a "blase facade" (i.e. - like you said, he just acted like he "accepted" the answer; and I don't really think he was expecting much more).

"I am insane... and you are my insanity" - James Cole, 12 Monkeys

-ak

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[–] moviestar26 14 years ago

Fishburne must of been waiting in hope that he could have taken over from Frank's position. So news of Franks release must have been dissapointing news to him.
This is what I think was going on in Franks mind.

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[–] DJ-Ren 14 years ago

moviestar26 said: "Fishburne must of been waiting in hope that he could have taken over from Frank's position. So news of Franks release must have been dissapointing news to him.
This is what I think was going on in Franks mind."

That's an interesting take on the scene. I mean, we KNOW that things were running differently while Frank was in jail: Jimmy Jump was killing everybody and just TAKING their money/drugs (and losing any "respect" Frank had built up); Frank wanted to "sit down and work things out" with people.

Sorry - like I said, I've seen this movie hundreds of times, but I never considered your theory (i.e. - Jimmy LIKED running the "gang"; he was not happy when Frank got out of jail [thereby reducing Jimmy back to "2nd place"];... and Frank KNEW Jimmy was mad about him getting out of jail). You'll have to give me some time to think about this. But if anybody reading the "I can't believe how bad this movie was." forum wants to say something positive about the film, be my guest.

"I am insane... and you are my insanity" - James Cole, 12 Monkeys

-ak

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[–] moviestar26 14 years ago

Thanks for your aknowledgement on my comment. It is a good movie, but I think some people are bashing it because of some flaws and the fact being that they critisise Ferrara for making a gangster flick.

Maybe it's not Ferrara's cup of tea. But if people feel there is a hitch in the movie, then the writer and the editor should take responsibility.

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[–] DJ-Ren 14 years ago

People are bashing it because they expect a "gangsta flick", a "hood movie", you know - something co-starring a rapper (using his real name because he's a "serious actor"); something with lots of black guys holding their gun sideways (so that when the shells fly out of the ejector port, they hit the shooter in the face); something with "authentic" actors (i.e. - real ex-criminals with real "gang tats"), "authentic" music (even if it has no place in the scene), "authentic" rides (because EVERY drug dealer drives a brand new [insert vehicle product placement here]), and "authentic" ebonics.

But sorry - this is an Abel Ferrara film. Even though it's his most well-known, highest budgeted, closest-attempt-to-a-genre-film movie, it's still Abel Ferrara and Nicholas St. John. So it's film rebels making a movie about redemption (which is what ALL Ferrara & St. John movies are about, LOL), and they will never make a film that will play in the Megaplex on 9 screens, competing for space with a 3-D, PG-13 remake/reboot/restart/reject movie with a big name director.

In fact, the (relative) success of KONY led to Ferrara being given his first (and last) "studio assignment". He was supposed to make (yet another) remake of "Body Snatchers", but, being Ferarra, he basically handed the project over to the 3rd Assistant Director, said "Put in LOTS of nudity and LOTS of blood", and basically siphoned money from the budget so that he and St. John could make "Bad Lieutenant". How could you NOT love a filmmaker like that?

"I am insane... and you are my insanity" - James Cole, 12 Monkeys

-ak

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[–] moviestar26 14 years ago

You mean like 'New jack city'. Yes but these days I guess you can't have a gangster flick without the flare and glare. Maybe that is why nobody is making these movie anymore. I think many people have misinterpreted the movie with its moral message.

But I don't think Frank was really going to be able to anything positive for the neighbourhood especially after spending so much time behind bars. It was more wise for him make an attempt to go staraight. I did find it strange however that the cop crew was so hell bent to take him down so quickly even after he came out from doing time.

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[–] chas77 14 years ago

In fact, the (relative) success of KONY led to Ferrara being given his first (and last) "studio assignment". He was supposed to make (yet another) remake of "Body Snatchers", but, being Ferarra, he basically handed the project over to the 3rd Assistant Director, said "Put in LOTS of nudity and LOTS of blood", and basically siphoned money from the budget so that he and St. John could make "Bad Lieutenant". How could you NOT love a filmmaker like that?

Where did you hear this? That is interesting news, indeed. I was really disappointed with "Invasion" -- it was not well put together at all. But the 3rd asst. director?? That's kind of odd...was there even any nudity in it?

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[–] moviestar26 14 years ago

Body Snatchers was good. It was short but still had an impact. It is difficult to compare it to Sutherland's movie because that was shot on a larger scale and there were way to many characters. However I don't think there is any need for a remake.

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[–] ganryu-3 14 years ago

Sorry maybe this movie was mind blowing and gritty and artsy and realistic back in 1990 but it's 2010 and we live in a post Wire world now and it just comes off as goofy and cartoonish.

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[–] moviestar26 14 years ago

So in your opinion it has not stood the test of time ?. I admit that there were a few sequances that were unrealistic. But please elaborate on the issue.

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[–] ganryu-3 14 years ago

A white guy is able to unite all these black gangs under him, go to prison for a long time and come out and take back over like nothing happened, that's a big stretch of the imagination there, that the white guy is a weirdo played by christopher walken, who starts dancing after a staredown with his second in command is pushing it even further, I mean what is this? And he's got these two female sidekicks that just do his bidding. It was like a comic book adaptation that took itself too seriously.

It's filled with terrible dialogue, like when Snipes is trying to get Fishburne to come out of hiding ("Where you at!? I got some chicken! You chicken eating mother *beep* Who says that kind of crap?

The action scenes, like many cheap movies from that era, are terrible, people just standing around or laying across the roof of cars firing machine guns at other people just standing there. There's a five hour long car chase of fishburne firing out of the sun roof and not hitting a damn thing.

It's got that whole New York is Hell look type thing going on that all 80s movies seemed to have, with gangs of punks wearing leather all the time screaming and hollering constantly, always raping and murdering. That's not real, that's a cartoon.

And the story, so he wants to support a hospital in a poor area, and other criminals think he's crazy and the cops want to kill him because he's a criminal, and that's it. Well big deal. Is that supposed to be mind blowing or deep or something? You can get a more deep portrait of the complexities of the workings of a conflicted criminal mind from a single episode of the sopranos. Nothing the movie does hasn't been done a million times better and with actual realism countless times over.

It'd be one thing if it was going for some stylized Streets of Fire type thing, but this movie seemed like it was trying to be serious and realistic and judging by the comments that's what most people take it as being.

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[–] 14 years ago

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[–] djsnafu23 12 years ago

That's the best breakdown of the movie I've read. I love the why didnt you visit in the joint scene. Great movie, and to see Walken bug out to Saturday Night was ill too.

....

http://soundcloud.com/dj-snafu-bankrupt-euros

Coz lifes too short to listen to Madlib

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[–] irwin25 13 years ago

That is not even what was said there. Obviously you have a reading difficulty.

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[–] susansebanc 11 years ago

Wow. You don't appreciate cool, classic Laurence Fishburne? Full-flavored Apolcalype Now, Cotton Club, School Daze, King of New York, Deep Cover, Boys in the Hood, Laurence (aka Larry) Fishburne? He was at his blandest in the Matrix trilogy, & if you dig that repressed, castrated acting style, you must have loved Drive and think Ryan Gosling is phenomenal. Keanu Reeves did monotonous better.
And you must not know anyone who has ever been to jail, because that's the excuse they get over & over from family and friends.
By "was bad", perhaps you and SteDevote both mean "took us out of our comfort zone" or maybe even "corny/cheesy," but you have no business judging this classic, as you obviously lack context.
~Room Service *beep*

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[–] gossedepulpe 13 years ago

biggest problem with abel ferrara movies is he works in a genre where when you make something actually good (like he does) you're largely putting pearls before swine

There, there, David. There's one for the each of us.

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[–] squifurgie 13 years ago

This movie is terrible, I fully agree with the TC.

Literally everything in this movie was badly done. The acting was over the top and laughable cartoonish, maybe that's what they were going for and if they were then they didn't pull it off.

There is no story or plot and the script is bad as well. The rating for this movie is waaaay to high. I like gangster movies, more specifically I like good gangster movies. This is not a good gangster movie.

you know what you are? you're a bastard-coated bastard with bastard filling.

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[–] sJoe90 13 years ago

ganryu-3 is spot on. It was like something from the robo-cop school of gangstarism, where people walk around completely out of cover shooting people. Utterly aweful!
I watched this film tonight, 9 march 2011, and yeah maybe in the 80's people could watch this sort of thing, but today, its just laughably unrealistic. I mean for starters, Frank kills all his "business associates" now any business man will tell you thats pretty bad for business, and furthermore to that other gangsters still want to deal with him... word spends fast in the ciminal world.
The bit that really killed this film for me was the china town bit, all the black guy + walken show up and just kill everyone, but it is in that cartoonish way, standing in open ground 5 feet from their enemy shooting, but where they manage to kill everyone, the china man gangstars are completely inept at using their weapons and couldn't hit a barn door from a yard away.

If they spent 5 years writing this they wasted their time. Towards the end i found myself not caring for any of the bad guys well being or even their stories, not one bit, but what i found myself thinking was that they should have taken this idea and expanded on the cops side of the story, that in fact they should have made the police the main characters, and i think if they had done it that way around instead, they could have had something very special.

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[–] ltobin39 13 years ago

im with you. that chinatown shootout was ridiculous. the 2 gangs were less than 10 feet apart and all had machine guns and shotguns and the shootout still lasted a full 5 minutes or so. and i laughed out loud when walken emerged from the backseat of a car with an uzi and stood firing away at the chinese gang in open ground. yeah thats right, the brilliant mob boss orders the theft of a bunch of coke and then actually GOES ALONG FOR THE HEIST/SHOOTOUT!

the crackden shootout was even worse. (and why, btw, is a convicted felon that's trying to reform himself as a socialite/philanthropist spending his downtime hanging in the lair of a violent gang anyway???) that room looked like it was the size of my living room, yet it took 10 minutes of machine gun fire to finally clear the room. one of the cops shot the big black guy with the sunglasses about 60 times with an uzi from a couple feet away while fishburne sprayed automatic gunfire all around the room and somehow didnt hit the cop, who was standing in the middle of the room.

i didnt understand why the cops were so insane. they're a gangland detective squad, meaning theyve all been cops for years, yet none of them have become hardened at all to the violence of NYC street crime and take it so personally when gang members kill other gang members.

then walken goes to a NYPD funeral where hundreds of cops are in attendance, blows a cop's head off in broad daylight, coasts away in a limo, and escapes. then he goes to the home of the boss of all the cops he and his men have killed to announce that he's put a bounty on the heads of an entire police unit IN PERSON, and tries to make his getaway on public transportation, somehow surprised that the cop managed to track him down on the subway.

if they were going to make a zany, campy crime movie like dick tracy then the filmmakers took the material way too seriously. if they were trying to make a serious crime movie, they made it way too goofy. it looked to me like they went into the shoot with about 1/2 a script, tried to improv the rest on the fly, went in 10 different directions simultaneously, and were left with a big mess that all the diting in the world couldnt make sense of.

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[–] susansebanc 11 years ago

People couldn't watch this in the 80s as it was released in 1990, & it's been a classic for those of us who appreciate style & flavor over conforming to white people's view of gangster realism. You going to pick apart True Romance next? Zatoichi?
Some of us enjoy over-the-top with mad style- it keeps things interesting.
“Style, after all, is a kind of humor,
Something truly beneath contempt...”
(Larry Levis)
By the way, Robo-cop is not generally considered a gangster film.

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[–] stagebandman 12 years ago

I just got done watching it for the first time, and have to say I quite enjoyed it, if enjoy is the right word. Maybe appreciated it is more to the point. I thought the acting was good, and it was fun to watch so many young not-yet-stars.

Compared to "The Departed", a film which I detested as much as you hate this one, I think KONY is a very good movie. But, I've been raked over the coals for my opinion on that one, so I know how you feel. Just read my tagline, it should explain all.

If we all liked the same movie, there'd only be one movie!

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[–] balthazar_bee 12 years ago

I watched it again last night, and I don't think its impact has lessened over time. Highly enjoyable.

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[–] oonagimaki 12 years ago

You're pretty spot on Stedevote--it was just as bad upon initial release--even to a 15 year old know-nothing like my then-self.

-This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

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[–] NexusP 12 years ago

You people are nuts. This movie was a classic. On Frank White taking over when he got back, he was still in charge from behind bars obviously. Fisburn homered him by getting one of his top targets before he got out. White was smart enough and connected enough to make power plays that his underboss couldn't dream of. Whites team was crazy enough to help him take over. They also came up in the streets money before White went to prison. He was famous before he did 10 years. He was was locked up often as a kid but had plenty of time before the 10 years stretch to cause havoc.

The "got some chicken" showed that snipes was an uncle tom. They harassed Fishburns character at the chicken spot where they arrested him on suspected murder charges. The women were paid bodyguards, hit women and hookers as evidenced by them doing the crew.

Walken was overjoyed by the gift of a dead targets glove (probably a main rival before he went to jail). These guys party and do drugs together, so a dance isn't so out of place on a reunion. If you know anybody in jail, you know it's hard mentally to visit a person there. Or maybe fishburn just didn't care, idk.

The gun scenes were believable in the sense that they were mostly catching people off guard when having large shootouts. They had plenty of cover behind cars and couches in both scenes. Whites crew was high off coke when the Base was raided so they weren't exactly think straight when they jumped in front of bullets lol. Bottom line, this is a fantasy drama because nobody could take over NY like he did which is why the cops were so crazed about taking him down after he got out much earlier then they liked. The dialogue was funy, witty, and for it's time, timeless.

-----------------------------------------
The Key to life is to not lose your keys.

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[–] 12 years ago

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