just noticed a 'plot hole' or whatever....

People misusing the term "plot hole" out of ignorance is a pet peeve of mine. But I'll try not to slam you on it too hard.

People tend to use plot hole as being another term for goof. A plot hole is in actuality, a very SPECIFIC TYPE of goof. one that is actually quite rare.

More oft than not, the supposed plot hole is no such thing, just some other sort of goof.

Quite often, it's not a goof at all... but just the individual's inability to process the scene with logic and intelligence. This is a quite common occurrence because the same sort of person that cannot differentiate that a plot hole is a unique type of goof and not just a generic term for goof... also lacks the ability to process the scene with logical intelligence.

I'll slap you a bit for misusing the term plot hole generically for goof... But not for misunderstanding the scene because the film is rather vague in that respect and for a non-Naval background would be difficult to understand. AND... the scene involves alterations from novel to film.
That's all I'll say on the subject of "Plot Holes" The rest of the post will be devoted to answering tour questions and correcting some assumptions and mistakes on your part.

When the Red October first engages its Caterpillar Drive, and "disappears" off the USS Dallas's radar,

Radar does not operate underwater and is not used to track submerged submarines. Sub rarely ever use radar except as a navigation aid when on the surface and entering a port.

Red October was being tracked by Passive Sonar, Not by radar.

RADAR: puts out specifically coded radiowave pulses through the air and by the kind of pulse and the design of the antenna.... is designed to track surface ships, or air contacts.

SONAR: puts out a modulated sound pulse or "ping" in the water and listens for the return echo if active... or just listens to the sound in the water put out by the contact itself if passive. This is for underwater use.

Red October was being tracked by passive sonar... Dallas listening to the sounds put out by Red October's screws and other sounds coming from the Soviet sub itself.

why didn't they call "Crazy Ivan" (or something similar) and shut down into silent running? Weren't they afraid the Russian sub had halted its engines and they would run into its rear?

Because it wasn't a crazy Ivan and no.. they were not afraid they'd run into the back of it.


A "crazy Ivan" is a peculiar maneuver used to check for trailing contacts in your aft blind zone. It is not simply "Stopping your screws". Watch the scene again when they do call Crazy Ivan. Not the phrase used by the Sonar Techs... "Possible aspect change in target based on bearing rate". This is right before Jonesy yells out, " CONN, SONAR. CRAZY IVAN!"

What that phrase means is that they are detecting a course change in Red October. The suddeness of the change is what alerted them to it being a crazy Ivan rather than just a simple change of base course.

Red October does not stop his screws during the Crazy Ivan. He makes a complete circle to look behind him and see if anyone is following. Dallas goes quiet to prevent their own sub being detected while not in Red October's blind spot.

A sub, surface ship, any vessel steered with a rudder at the back... does not change course by turning it's bow in the direction of turn. It does so by kicking the stern(back of boat) out and away in the opposite direction of the turn. Think about trying to steer a shopping cart while pushing it backwards and you'll get the idea. By suddenly turning to Port (left) the Red October's stern kicks out to starboard(right). This causes Red October to lay ACROSS THE PATH of any following vessel like Dallas for a brief period of time until Red Octobers own speed has moved the sub's hull out of the way. Dallas meanwhile is drifting dead in the water, speed slowly coming down but if they're too close, they could collide.

The US also uses maneuvers to check for and possibly shake following subs..We call it "clearing baffles", but it amounts to the same thing.

Again... a Crazy Ivan is a MANEUVER to check your blind spot. Simply cutting your engines and stopping is not a Crazy Ivan and does nothing to clear your blind spot as you have to turn the vessel to see what is in the blind spot. And Dallas was not worried about running into Red October that first time because they were not tucked in close behind them as they were later when trailing right in their blind spot.

And BTW... that alteration from book to film I mentioned... It was not Dallas that they up and disappeared from. It was USS Bremerton, another Sub. Dallas did not pick them up until much later near Thor's Twins. But rather than introducing another sub another crew, and more actors to the script... they condensed the scenes down to just being Dallas. They did the same sort of condensation of the story during the climactic final battle as well. There were TWO US sub's escorting Red October during the battle with the Alfa. USS Dallas and USS Pogy. Also... the Getting the crew off and the battle with the Alfa took place days apart. They got the crew off, Exploded a decommed old American Sub in its place to fool the crew, and then his Red October in an inlet( That final scene with Ryan and Ramius talking on the bridge of the sub at night). A few days later after the soviets were convinced red October had sunk and they departed back to Russia... Red October and the two American sub's left the inlet to head for Norfolk. It was then that the Alfa came across them and realized that Red October was still alive, and attacked.


Hope that explains things to your satisfaction. Just be more careful throwing around the term "plot hole".

I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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Oh dear, you dared to enter a message board regarding a movie dealing with the Navy. You poor chap. I can see a user I have on ignore whipped in to replay and by your follow up reply he apparently didn't like something you said (what a shock....how unlike him). This guy was apparently in the Navy decades ago and lives on almost every board regarding any movie with a ship/vessel in it and basically does nothing but gripe and criticize, smart-off, bitch, complain, call names to any thread he decides to comment on. You may not know yet how serious this guy takes himself or how "important" he feels that he can't just enjoy a film and harmlessly chit chat about it on here. He kind of considers himself the board's "police" who bitches and corrects every topic or question he considers unworthy to be posted. He is the king of semantics and he'll freak out about the most irrelevant and meaningless things. He has zero people skills and really never makes a post or has an opinion, he just lurks about and waits for someone to spaz out on because they used some inaccurate description of some nautical terminology. He feels it's his job to decide what can and can't be said here and thinks it's his job to tell everyone their post was no good.

Do yourself a favor and just put him on ignore. He is just the local jerk who really has nothing better to do but argue on irrelevant, movie message boards all day. 85% of threads on here are silly, but he thinks he's part of some Pentagon or Annapolis debate team and every topic is life and death. He rarely ever has a take or starts a post he just criticizes everyone else who does. He really feels important. This guy really has NO sense of humor and is no fun at all. He is nothing but rude and he's not a novice, he has a master's degree in no fun, arrogant, self righteous rudeness. Being a dull, rude, condescending, internet black hole of fun is his life's passion.



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I can't remember the scene particularly well, but here's my take on it.

The time when they all go bananas over the 'Crazy Ivan' is because they WERE trailing behind Red October at the time, and if they didn't react to the Crazy Ivan then they risked running up the rear of her.

Pretty much any time a submarine does a 'Crazy Ivan' is safe for everyone... unless they are being trailed.

So that's why they weren't worried, because at the time they weren't closely tucked in behind the Red October (from memory - I may be wrong).

Now someone like Jonesy could probably pick up that it was a crazy ivan by all the other ancillary noises that go on. The rudder would turn and therefore make some kind of noise... but none of this happened this time. The engines just stopped and it went dead.

That's my take on it anyway.

Besides which, they had to add suspense 

SpiltPersonality

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