Which seems to be the weapon used by the foreshadowed "every peasant with a rifle" which penetrates the A-6 in the opening scene, mortally wounding one of the crew. Could this rifle have penetrated the A-6 canopy/fuselage? Thanks!
shareIt comes straight from the book both the farmer shooting at the Intruder flying low and the comment about every peasant with a rifle. And the author was a veteran Navy A-6 pilot who flew during the Vietnam War.
51 Intruders were lost in combat over Vietnam. None of those losses were confirmed to be from small arms. All 51 were from AA, AAA, SAMs, Fighter CAP or for instance being too low during a bomb run and getting caught up in the effects of its own ordnance.
Of course this Aircraft was not a loss, it came back intact. Having said that hundreds of low flying A/C were hit by small arms during the Vietnam War. Intruders were low level attack A/C and dozens were damaged by small arms from AK-47s to Mosin Nagant bolt-action rifles.
This was probably a Type 53 not a Mosin Nagant. Either way 7.62x54R will easily penetrate the thin aluminum. A-6s were not armored. Even A-1 Skyraiders which had armor kits were vulnerable to small arms near the canopy/
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Hey Dubya! Wiki told me that NVAF Migs shot down 2 A6s; do you have any additional information, by chance?
Thanks ahead of time;
Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?
*To edit I only included Navy losses. For some reason I wasnt thinking about the Marines.
AFAIK no Navy A-6s were lost to VPAF. The 2 A-6s lost to Migs were lost to Chinese Migs over Vietnam. Low-level, fast and oddly enough very low IR signature. The Navy flew them almost exclusively at night. Funny(not really) that many of the losses came during the rare day strikes most of which were Alpha Strike or Alpha Strike-like. The Navy also picked bad weather for flying the A-6 which in Vietnam was often especially during the wet season. Combine NOE flying with low IR signature, with bad weather, with darkness and you have the A-6 bread and butter.
But there are actually several A-6 losses that are unexplained. Some were confirmed(VID) to have gone down but the reason why isn't clear. Some were just never heard from again. Then there is the 'Pentagon Fog' that hates saying planes were lost to Migs. Some of the losses credited to AAA/SAMs are undoubtedly actually Mig losses. Same issue with the Pentagon and Scott Speicher in Desert Storm. God forbid a antique Mig shoot down one of our high tech jets, so lets cover it up and say it was a SAM. Many A/C losses were unconfirmed regarding cause. Many losses you will see "Believed to be hit by SAM""Probable Grounfire" and similar.
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Well the Speicher loss seems 'custom made' for a Mig-25 shootdown: swift approach, shoot & 'break away'-classic MiG21 tactic during Late Rolling Thunder & early Linebacker.
As for 'stuff' lost to MiGs that are not reported, well...what little I can stomach going over NVAF material-it seems they claim on days there are no losses & they have losses on days there are no US claims. Such are the vagaries of air to air combat. You've probably heard the efforts to re write the Korea War air to air scores to play it out as a Soviet victory.
Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?
Speicher, now there is a movie they should make. Its pretty clear at this point that it was Mig-25. I actually know one of the people involved in the Strike. The way its setup by those involved makes it more a situation where the Mig pilot was in the wrong place at the wrong time. He should have been dead he ran into 3 different packages: the F-18 SEAD strike, the F-14 strike CAP and F-15 MigCAP that were out of position.
The issue with losses especially in those days was that the cause even if there was some evidence, the system by design was on a mission to 'debunk'. Attack it and see if it holds up to scrutiny. If it can't be proven beyond a shadow of doubt than you must acquit.
Its hard to rewrite getting p'owned but if anybody will try to do it, the Russians will. The Brits claim the longest sniper shot, oh wait Russia says its guy shot a Chechen from 100 meter farther and they have dozens of witnesses(who are all getting paid to said "Da I saw")
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Well it ain't the Russkies it's an Argentinian guy in collaboration with a Cuban historian; he kept trying to claim US/UN CAS losses to flak well south of 'The Alley' were actually downed by Soviet Migs. Joe Brennan reviewed Soviet/Russian (and to a lesser extent PRC) unit histories and they are very detailed as to their own losses--and if you tally them, they still come out to around 6 to 1 in favor of the Saber forces.
Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?
The Russians have been getting more and more outspoken now too. Cause now its all the rage for them to reveal and joke about how they were advising in combat incognito and lying about it for 50 years. And god knows the Russians would never exaggerate about numbers...
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That's what I keep telling folks: there weren't that many serviceable Sabers in country during 1950-1951 period. If the Russian claims were anywhere near accurate the Saber force would have been wiped out a dozen times over.
That being said, their records are pretty accurate when it comes when engagements took place. If they said they encountered 'swept wing jets' then there was a corresponding encounter at the same place & time on the US Side.
Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?
The truth is easy to see though, even when you consider the debunking fog. Free and Open society that can't hide casualties vs. completely closed society that lies about virtually everything. I was watching some Space documentary, an episode covering the Shuttle-Mir program came on. I think they were on the second cycle and the replacement NASA astronaut is doing the turnover with the guy he is replacing. Only then was full explanation of the fire and no radar equipment causing a near collision given. The Russians just never told the Americans. And when the evidence was presented, even in the face of losing the program to US Congress cuts solely because of the lie the Russians denied it. They denied for years. And now since the ease of the internet has made it possible for the Cosmonauts to speak out, the Russians actually try to blame NASA and the Ukraine.
The situation in Korea is prototypical Soviet/Russian behavior. They have complete deniability for any losses. They can pick and choose where they participated since they were hiding their participation to begin with.
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And of course...Given who their 'boss' was back in 1950-53, I'd say it'd probably be safer to 'claim more than you lose'.
Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?
What is really funny or sick depending how you look at it, is the modern recognizance of the 64th Fighter Group with medals from Putin. In 1951 it is reported that many of the Vvs pilots were disgraced, some of the commanders even sent to the Gulag or sacked outright. Even if its not 70 Sabers to 700 Migs, 500-600 Sabers to 700 Migs is still nothing for the Russians to be proud of, let alone give medals for.
Panthers and other Navy and Marine Corps A/C did well against Mig-15s which says a lot. The Panther was a horrible dogfighter. Its like the disadvantaged fat kid in a road race with a track stay. And most of the Panther victories were undoubtedly against Russian pilots.
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The Panther had 20mm cannons so when they hit a MiG it made an impression to be sure. And I always heard that the MiGs that were engaged were inadvertently encountered over Vladivostok.
Out of curiosity, where did you read that VVS pilots were in disgrace?
Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?
Several defectors including Yuri Rastvorov gave the US accounts from 54 on regarding details of the Soviet involvement in Korea. Rastvorov gave detailed info on POWs and the Internal Detainees. 2 of the Heroes of the Soviet Union that were from VVS over Korea were actually imprisoned shortly after they were awarded. It contributed greatly to the 64th withdrawal from combat and transfer of duties to KPAF. The Soviets were saving face. Get the units out, award them, shut them away. The fog though is so thick because of the present Russian touting, covering up and history rewriting. If the Soviets were doing so well why did they suddenly withdraw the help? Pepelechov talks about loving the North Koreans and the Chinese. And we know that is utter bullshVt. The Chinese specifically felt the Soviets cut and ran like cowards and they surely didn't get along while the Soviets were present. the Chinese were constantly complaining about the Soviets not proceeding further than Mig alley and incensed by the Soviets only flying with Chinese markings.
You're taking a dump and they call GQ do you pinch it off or finish your business?
Interesant', non?
Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?