MovieChat Forums > The Field Discussion > Shamey or Shame me? (SPOILERS)

Shamey or Shame me? (SPOILERS)

posted 17 years ago by Bertaut
18 replies | jump to latest

When The Bull is beating The American to death, he's talking about being shamed infront of the village, in front of his son and in front of God, and he screams 'You'll not shame me, shame me, shame me, shame me'. However, it also sounds like he's saying 'Shamey', which is, of course, the name of The Bull's dead son.

This is especially interesting insofar as he and Tadgh have a conversation about Shamey on the way to the fight with the American, and then, later on, as The Bull holds The American's dead body he looks at it and says how old Shamey was when he died.

What do you guys make of this conflation between 'Shame me' to 'Shamey'. I found it fascinating, but I'm not sure how to interpret it.

[–] bejasus 17 years ago

I think you are on the right track: Seamus, the name of the dead son, sounds like "shame - us" and the nickname sounds like "shame - me". And they make that real explicit in the scene you describe.

Personally, I think the Shame-me/Shamey thing is laid on kind of thick, even though "The Field" is one of my favorite movies.

The scene that I think is so well done is the one at the "American wake," with the tensions between Richard Harris, Sean Bean, the American, the tinker's daughter, and the girl with the "good breeding hips." The way pride and shame play out there (among all the characters) is really complex and quite dramatic.

Brideshead: There's nothing wrong in being a physical wreck, you know . . . .

[–] barrett-ronald 17 years ago

I got the impression that Seamey left his family as a boy due to abuse at the hands of his father. Then Bull created the suicide story since he felt his son was dead to him. The Tom Berenger character might actually be Seamey coming back to reclaim his family's land from who he thinks is a monster of a father. You might notice we never learn "The American"'s name. This would make the story even more tragic, since Bull kills both his sons even though one of them actually wanted to preserve the land for the family, just not in the way he intended.

[–] knoweveryone 17 years ago

They visit Seamie's grave at one point, which kind of puts paid to the idea of Berenger being his son. Though the idea has its merits, in that Berenger might be the sort of person that Seamie might have turned out to be, more independent minded that Sean Benn's character.

[–] 17 years ago

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[–] bejasus 17 years ago

I'm sorry, but The American is not The Bull's son. He's a "blow in," a foreigner, the descendent of Irish ancestors who probably left during the Famine, which The Bull remembers with such bitterness, and has now come to the old country with all his dollars and making life hard on the one who stuck it out during the famine.

Seamus committed suicide, and so the Church did not allow him to be buried in the churchyard. Another source of bitterness for The Bull.

The movie doesn't make much sense by your theory. The Bull feels guilty because he made a comment about how one of the sons would have to emigrate, since The Field wouldn't support both. The Bull thinks that comment drove Seamus to suicide, so his weaker brother didn't have to emigrate. The family dynamics only make sense from the guilt surrounding the suicide.

But if you want to ignore the movie plot and come up with obscure alternatives to what we're shown on the screen, why not imagine that one of the Tinker's is buried in the grave, or that there wasn't a grave at all, The Bull and his wife just went over the little hill to smoke a ciggy out of the eye of the medaling priest, or that the American had amnesia, which would explain why he didn't give his long lost family a hug hello once he returned to the village dressed like a movie star? Or that the American had an affair with the widow -- which explains why she wanted to be sure he won the auction?

Brideshead: There's nothing wrong in being a physical wreck, you know . . . .

[–] 17 years ago

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[–] cableface 16 years ago

Doesn't the priest call the American by his name when they're talking in the Priest's house? In the scene after they've been driving around, talking about the potential for building. The American calls the Priest Chris (I think), but I can't remember what the American's name is. Either way, it's not Seamey.

[–] shipool 16 years ago

I think the american's name is Peter. The priest does call him by name when they are talking in the house.

[–] kennellygerard 10 years ago

bull is short for bully

A question about working with Richard Harris
brings an animated, albeit unexpected reaction:
“Me and Harris fought nearly every single day!” He recalls,
without a moment’s hesitation.
”Over everything; where he stood, the script . . .
I will never forget Harris, he was mad to work with.”
As if to back up this point a bizarre anecdote follows suit:
“One day I was fighting with him because I wanted him to do a retake
on the scene in the river
and he ran up a hill.
People came with coffee and towels,
and first the coffee went flying in the air
and then the towels went
so I ran up the hill after him.”

http://www.iftn.ie/news/?act1=record&aid=73&rid=4283580&tpl=archnews&only=1

[–] Phillipobrien79-492-585455 8 years ago

There's no evidence of the Bull being violent to his family on the film (apart from the end).
Tadgh said his father never hit him in his life.
It's unlikely Bull would have hurt the "heir" to the land.

[–] kcanavan84 15 years ago

The American is a representation of Seamy in the mind of Bull. A Substitution.
Such a wonderfully layered film

Some of you will remember that I have an extraordinary visual sense

[–] IrishLumog 14 years ago

"I got the impression that Seamey left his family as a boy due to abuse at the hands of his father. Then Bull created the suicide story since he felt his son was dead to him. The Tom Berenger character might actually be Seamey coming back to reclaim his family's land from who he thinks is a monster of a father. You might notice we never learn "The American"'s name. This would make the story even more tragic, since Bull kills both his sons even though one of them actually wanted to preserve the land for the family, just not in the way he intended."

"The American is a representation of Seamy in the mind of Bull. A Substitution.
Such a wonderfully layered film "

Both are completely incorrect. Seamie has nothing to do with the american.

Back to OP question, I always thought he started saying "You'll not shame me" (In front of his family and neighbours) but that it gradually morphs into "You're not Seamie" - The "you're not seamie" is directed at Tadgh (He had just said "you, will I ever make a man out of ya?") suggesting that he thought Seamie was the better man (More appreciation of the land). This is alluded to throughout the film as well.

Seamie hung himself when he was 13 because Bull had said Tadgh would have to emigrate as the land could only support 1 man (All Bulls brothers & sisters had emigrated). Seamie thought the problem would be solved if he wasnt around. When they fish the yank out of the lake with the crane, the memory of finding seamie hanging clearly returns to Bull which is why he says "Seamie". But there is no direct link between Seamie & the yank.

[–] Bertaut 13 years ago

Morphing into "You're not Shamey" and directed at Tadgh? Now that is very interesting. Never thought of that one. Well spotted sir.

This film is being screened at the IFI in Dublin on February 7 with Jim Sheridan in attendance. I'm going to ask him about this if there's an audience Q&A.

"Someday we'll fall down and weep...and we'll understand it all. All things."

[–] bejasus 13 years ago

Ahh! Wish I'd known about the Feb. 7 thing . . . Did you get to ask your question? Did Sheridan say anything? Do tell!

Bronagh Gallagher/The Commitments: runner up to Joe Pesci for times f* was said in a movie.

[–] Bertaut 13 years ago

Sadly no.

There was supposed to be a Q&A but only one person got to ask anything (actually it was one of those long rambling questions that are more to do with "look ho intelligent I am" than actually asking anything), and then Luke Gibbons (who was chairing) went on so much that there was no time for anyone else to speak.

[–] bejasus 13 years ago

Thanks for the update (which I just saw today). Shame (!) you didn't get to ask a question. Still nice to have had the chance to watch the film with Sheridan! It is one of the all-time greats . . . .

[–] dbeane 11 years ago

"Seamie hung himself when he was 13 because Bull had said Tadgh would have to emigrate as the land could only support 1 man (All Bulls brothers & sisters had emigrated). Seamie thought the problem would be solved if he wasnt around."

Ah, thanks for that. I had trouble hearing Bull's part of the conversation with his wife by the fireside, so that part of the film remained a mystery to me.

[–] 8 years ago

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