I figured you of all people would appreciate the scene's subtlety, poetry, and ambiguity.
Sorry to disappoint. But for me, the scene had none of the subtlety, poetry or ambiguity which you see in it.
You said that it doesn't climax into a jump-scare, but it in fact does!
Not really, not for the truly important people, namely the audience. The only "scare" is the mutual scare of Kinderman's and Alice's "chance encounter".
No scare paydirt for the audience there. We see the two characters startling each other, but that is not frightening for us.
It's supposed to be one of those early-on scenes in a Horror film in which the protagonist receives hints that something is not quite right, yet is still unaware of the full magnitude of the threat awaiting them
Except it happens in mid-film, not early-on, and Kinderman/the university president have already received multiple Weird Hints via the stopped clock, the Regan giggle, the blowing papers and the door opening (and maybe the whispered "...exorcisti..." Latin). The rest leads nowhere.
Instead, in my imaginary re-edited version, Kinderman would be shown standing in the hall, the whole "Alice" scene would be cut, and the film then resumed just after Kinderman gives the speech papers to Kinderman. Or if possible a dubbed line for Kinderman saying something like, "Looks like someone left these for you" as he hands the speech to the university president. That way, the Weird Hints are preserved without resort to the Alice Anticlimax.
which the protagonist receives hints that something is not quite right, yet is still unaware of the full magnitude of the threat awaiting them
But of course, the threat is not (yet) Kinderman meeting Damien/confronting Vennamun-the demon. Rather it is (supposed to be) a nameless dread that leads Kinderman into the hallway to confront what is plainly hinted to be a present menace. A menace that never appears! Nothing supernatural, paranormal, or demonic shows up after the earlier buildup of "manifestations" in the president's office. It's a wet firecracker.
the fact that it keeps things to a minimum and never spoonfeeds proof of an outright supernatural presence at the moment
Oh, but the film has been spoonfeeding the audience all along (small bites to be certain), and it's just spoonfed Kinderman and the university president with a stopped clock, a Regan giggle, rustling papers, a door that swings open, and flickering lights in the hall. Then the pace increases: a Joker statue comes to life! Rapidly advancing feet are shown scrambling toward Kinderman!... And then the Big Reveal: Alice delivering the speech ("what's wrong with these lights?" - very funny, hah hah). All that delicate spoonfeeding, after buildup, has abruptly ceased in a "climax" devoid of punch, scares, meaning, and context.
would one expect or prefer some supernatural confirmation in heavyhanded form for this scene?
Yes. For the simple reason that the filmmaker has set it up as such - ghostly winds and whispers, a stopped clock, the Regan giggle, the whispered Latin words, an empty hallway whose lights flicker, an unexplained, obtrusive statue that (illogically) comes to dread life, swiftly approaching footsteps... the entire setup demands a supernatural shock. Who said that this shock had to be heavyhanded? Not me.
As I mentioned earlier, in one original version, instead of Alice, Kinderman sees a scuttling nurse, a puppet of the Gemini, skulking around stalking Kinderman. Now THAT would be a subtle, supernatural payoff, and much more realistic than an out-of-place statue coming to life. The nurse herself is chilling precisely because she IS out-of-place, but in a non-obtrusive manner.
Blatty should have filmed Kinderman seeing the nurse, not Alice, and returning to the president's office. No need for handing over the speech papers, since Alice wasn't there to deliver them in the first place.
I thought someone made a thread about the joker statue once a few years back. Isn't it supposed to be symbolic? Why would Kinderman or the woman or anyone need to see it?
Iirc, it was claimed that the Joker has associations with a similar Tarot card, which provides resonance to the Tarot poster on Temple's office wall. But still I don't think that idea, though allegorically clever, really works, because:
Either the Joker statue is real, which is well nigh impossible because it just doesn't fit anywhere in Georgetown U's decor;
or
it is a "vision" perceived by Kinderman and/or Alice (something like what Karras and Merrin see in the exorcism - Regan's full head-turn, the Pazuzu statue, "Mary Karras", etc.), except... they don't perceive it at all. Which leaves it hanging out in space without relation to the immediate scene or the film as a whole.
This is why I say that it has no context, either in the scene itself, or in the film's overall narrative. The presence of a Joker statue is bad enough, but to further outrage logic and context, it comes to life (Huh? WTF?).
To recap: the Joker, in order to "work", has to be a real statue in a real hallway - highly improbable;
or
it has to figure in the awareness of Kinderman and/or Alice - which it doesn't.
So it's obtrusively out-of-context both physically and narratively. Blatty may as well have stuck a Pazuzu statue in the hallway - at least that would have resonated with the story's overarching context and the Blattian theological perspective, as well as being an in-context visual that most audiences would immediately understand.
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DreTam2000
8 years ago
...and it's just spoonfed Kinderman and the university president with a stopped clock, a Regan giggle, rustling papers, a door that swings open, and flickering lights in the hall.
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All that delicate spoonfeeding, after buildup, has
That's just the thing. To me, "delicate spoonfeeding" is an oxymoron. I don't think it can be considered spoonfeeding if the hints are subtle. I feel like the term "spoonfeed" is therefore desensitized or being used out of context.
And then the Big Reveal: Alice delivering the speech ("what's wrong with these lights?" - very funny, hah hah).
I really never felt like that line was supposed to be funny. I thought it was the story's way of simply having a character acknowledge something that had been occurring during the moment. Now, if you want to argue that it was a weak way of inserting such an acknowledgement into the dialogue, via a weak choice of words, then you might have a point.
The presence of a Joker statue is bad enough, but to further outrage logic and context, it comes to life...
Uh... I don't ever recall seeing it come to life.
But anyhow... I guess the only thing I can picture which would suit your fancy, would be an occurrence similar to the one in the original story, when Father Merrin is almost trampled by oncoming horse and carriage (I mean, I think that's what that was anyway- a horse and carriage). That nurse idea wouldn't be a bad alternative. The scene would still work for me either way.
The thing about the statue coming to life confuses me, though. I've never noticed that. But I do feel like either Kinderman or Alice could have glanced at it in an alternate version (if we are to go by your logic that it should have more context), turned their heads in puzzlement at it, and then he or she is distracted for a moment enough to turn their heads away from it, and once the lights flicker back on they glance over again to see that the statue is back to normal.
That's one possibility anyway, as if the "presence" was fooling with them, even if he or she dismisses it as a mental mistake.
I'm not a control freak, I just like things my way
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bastasch8647
8 years ago
The thing about the statue coming to life confuses me, though
Right - I might be over-interpreting on that. But the first Joker shot shows the statue in the foreground, almost full-frontally - I think the bottom part is below-frame. It's holding a big knife. The second shot focuses in closeup on the knife. My interpretation has been that Blatty's intent was to strongly imply that the statue is not only horrific, but is invested with an animistic kind of life or half-life, i.e., that it could injure or kill with that knife. I'll concede that I might be overdoing this interpretation. But I can't imagine why Blatty does a closeup on the knife if he did not mean to imply a very real, active and living or life-like potential for the statue. If no life-force applies to the statue, then, of course, it has no power to harm in the external world. It's just an out-of-place statue.
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TheSolarSailor
8 years ago
The Gemini tells Kinderman specifically that the spirit is not enough. They must have a functioning body to act through. The statue does not come to life.
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I am not a fan. I just happen to enjoy movies. Fans are embarrassing.
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bastasch8647
8 years ago
As I said, I could be over-interpreting here. But a statue that changes its whole costuming and demeanor, but at the same time represents zero physical danger (not even when it's made to hold a large dagger)... almost HAS to have some lifelike qualities, or the "danger" becomes nothing but a spoof - because if no lifelike qualities adhere to it, it represents no danger at all. It has no power to harm.
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TheSolarSailor
8 years ago
The scene in question doesn't bother me. Kinderman is dealing with some incredibly strange things, and is pretty uneasy about the man in the cell knowing details of the Gemini killings from so long ago, things that no one could possibly know. The Gemini is dead. The man in the cell can't possibly be him. Kinderman is faced with having to consider something that he just can't believe in...possession. He expresses this for the first time when asking the Father what the connection between the killings could possibly be. I think the scene that follows of the clock stopping, the pages turning, the door creaking open...it all shows how scared Kinderman is getting over the unknown. Is it supernatural activity, or is he just getting spooked the more he thinks about the Gemini? Of course, it is just Alice, so the scene can be looked at as Kinderman simply getting spooked. Or...maybe Alice is just the explanation that Kinderman needs to dismiss what was obviously an evil presence??
Now, I can't explain the Joker statue that no one else sees except for the audience.
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I am not a fan. I just happen to enjoy movies. Fans are embarrassing.
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bastasch8647
8 years ago
Is it supernatural activity, or is he just getting spooked the more he thinks about the Gemini?
I believe Blatty intended it to be supernatural or at least paranormal - it's not just Kinderman who seems to be witnessing all of it - at least Blatty does not exclude the university president as a witness. So it's probably not "all just in Kinderman's mind". And specifically, the Regan giggle*, the whispered Latin, the stopped clock, the flickering lights - all occurring in a cluster - certainly suggest, at the very minimum, the real, close presence of the Uncanny. Which leads the viewer to expect an equally uncanny climax, which never happens - it's only just a natural outcome of two characters startling each other, not the audience.
I can't explain the Joker statue that no one else sees except for the audience
I saved the asterisk for this issue -
* The Regan giggle. Like the statue that only the audience sees, the Regan giggle is only meaningful to viewers who saw the Friedkin film. If you haven't seen the first film, the giggle is just a random sound effect. So, strictly speaking, it has no place in this film, since neither Kinderman nor the president ever met Regan. Granted, Regan does sort of haunt this scene, but she is not mentioned as "that MacNeil kid" until after the Kinderman/Alice hallway encounter. So, whether or not both Kinderman and the president hear the giggle, the only people who would really understand it are audience members who have seen the Freidkin film. So ultimately, the giggle is (almost as) out of place as the Joker statue...
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TheSolarSailor
8 years ago
Ok, I have studied the film more closely and here is what I think is going on with the scene. You may disagree, but this is the best I can come up with.
* The scene starts with the camera above the stairwell, looking at the large ornate wall made of glass window sections with glass doors on either side. In the center stands a statue of a priest holding a Bible and a cross.
* The conversation between Kinderman and the priest ensues leading to the clock stopping, the giggle, the whispering voice, etc. As Kinderman approaches the door and sees the other door creak open, you can hear the sound of something heavy being moved across the floor.
* As Kinderman leaves the room and exits through the glass doorway and into the stairwell hall, notice that the statue that had been located at the center in between the two doors is now gone. The lights flicker, then go out. We hear the sound effects that always accompany the presence of the evil force at work in the film.
* We are then shown the statue in a new position, hidden down the hallway to Kinderman's left and facing away from him (and towards the audience). The statue now holds a sharp knife where the cross had been, and instead of the priest's head, it is now the Joker's head. Kinderman then suddenly encounters Alice, who is very jovial after appearing from absolutely nowhere.
Forget what I said earlier about Kinderman being spooked. Obviously, the demon is at work here. I want to remind you of very early in the film when we first see Kinderman at home, he tells his daughter Julie to "watch out for red shoes" as she leaves for dance class. He of course is referring to The Red Shoes by Hans Christian Andersen. It is very important here to take note of the fact that Alice is wearing red shoes. We get a closeup of her feet speedily approaching before it shows us who it is.
I honestly think that the demon is using Alice at this point to toy with Kinderman, hence the Joker face on the statue. We know nothing about who Alice is other than someone who writes speeches for the priest. She may be someone who has the early signs of Alzheimer's Disease, for instance. Why do I bring something like that up? Because the Gemini tells Kinderman that Catatonics are so easy to possess. Emphasis on "so easy". If you read more deeply into that line, he isn't ruling out the ability to possess other people with more effort, especially those who may have early symptoms of something liker Alzheimers, just as an example. The film establishes that people with these types of problems are being used at the hospital. I think the demon knows the things that Kinderman thinks and says, and I think it might have picked his brain about the red shoes comment. We already know there is an interest in Kinderman at this point, revealed by how Temple is given the mission of getting Kinderman into the cell to meet the Gemini.
I know I am stretching and creating new ideas to consider, but I gave this a lot of thought and re-watched it all very closely. The only real variable here is Alice, since we are given no detail about who she is or what her condition may be. This is how I choose to view the scene.
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bastasch8647
8 years ago
Thanks for your detailed and attentive review of this scene. I appreciate the effort you put into it, but as you might guess, I can't go all the way with your interpretation.
I don't see the Joker statue being the same as the St. Ignatius (or whoever) statue that was in the atrium. It looks like a completely different statue with not only a different head/face, but a new wardrobe and a large dagger. (This of course does not explain your very good point of why the St. Dominic statue has disappeared from the atrium and ended up on Kinderman's floor, in the hallway he's standing in.)
But more importantly: neither Kinderman nor Alice see either statue. If it's a case of the demon "possessing" the statue, then the demon is wasting its time, because it's creating a "scary" event that no one in the film witnesses. It may or may not be frightening to the audience, but obviously the story's demon has no awareness that it's in a movie, and so cannot be playing to an audience. The only other alternative is that Blatty is playing with the audience, but as you know from my other posts, if that's the case, his little tease is illogical and fails to frighten.
Alice as Alzheimer's victim. Possibly, but for me to accept that, the script would need to have already specified that Alice is indeed in some way mentally deficient. Otherwise we are led to create an Alzheimer's Alice out of whole cloth, without any script-derived reason do do so. As you wrote,
The only real variable here is Alice, since we are given no detail about who she is or what her condition may be
Exactly, and I am using "the argument from silence" to support my contention that an invention of a mentally-impaired Alice probably goes too far. We don't know what her condition may be, and that is because Blatty has not given us that information. But in all the other cases, Blatty makes us understand that the elderly and the mentally ill and "vacant" are clear, obvious, likely, and even factual possession-targets for the Gemini. Not so Alice. of whom the script only says she's a fast walker in red shoes and strange raingear, who is there to deliver a typed speech, and to startle - and be startled by - Kinderman. No hint is given of her mental condition, which would only be fair if Blatty intended her to be one of the Gemini's "vacuous" possession victims. That is: Alice has no context in regard to that issue.
Moreover, if the demon is using Alice to mess with Kinderman, it's not much of a "messing". Alice's hurried footsteps last only a few seconds, and she brings no harm at all to Kinderman (the demon would surely have done some serious psychic or physical damage to the detective) - she only brings the harmless typed speech to the university president/Kinderman.
So I think that, for this particular portion of the scene, the demon is an unnecessary hypothesis, because Alice would have been there to deliver the speech in any case, with or without the demon temporarily pulling her strings - and with or without Kinderman being in the hallway at the time. Granted that there could be a connection between the line, "watch out for Red Shoes" and Alice's red shoes, but again ... there was really nothing to "watch out for" with Alice, because she's simply there to deliver the speech papers, and would have done so even had Kinderman not been present. Neither Kinderman nor Julie were threatened by the red shoes. So the red shoes may, at best, be an allegorical red herring.
As Kinderman approaches the door and sees the other door creak open, you can hear the sound of something heavy being moved across the floor.
Huh...hadn't noticed that, but will look out for it next time I view the movie - thanks for the clue. But I don't know what it could mean. Fairly obviously, it would not be the sound of the St. Ignatius statue being moved, because:
1. All probabilities seem to indicate that the demon would simply, noiselessly, levitate the statue, or equally noiselessly, paranormally "bilocate" it up to Kinderman's hallway. The demon would have wanted it to be a noiseless procedure in order to make it more of a shocking surprise (a surprise that never comes, since Kinderman never even sees the transformed statue).
2. Even if the demon did (much more physically/laboriously) move the statue by dragging, the dragging sound has a much too short duration. There is a lot of floor space to cover (not to mention those stairs, if the statue's original position was on the ground floor). A lot more sound, thumping, and noise-duration would be called for in such an operation. ... So what do you think the dragging noise indicates...?
Thanks again for your thoughts. It's fun to kick this stuff around with a fellow-fan.
:)
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TheSolarSailor
8 years ago
This of course does not explain your very good point of why the St. Dominic statue has disappeared from the atrium and ended up on Kinderman's floor, in the hallway he's standing in.
The statue has not moved that far. It was in front of the same set of doors that Kinderman walks out of as he investigates. It was simply dragged over the the hallway that is to his left, facing away from him. It has only been moved a few yards at most, hence the sound of something heavy dragging the floor that can clearly be heard moments earlier as Kinderman begins to investigate the weirdness.
But more importantly: neither Kinderman nor Alice see either statue.
Yes, I know all of that. I am simply trying to explain how I view the scene based on what we have and NOT argue over how pointless it was. We've already been over all of that.
Alice as Alzheimer's victim. Possibly, but for me to accept that, the script would need to have already specified that Alice is indeed in some way mentally deficient. Otherwise we are led to create an Alzheimer's Alice out of whole cloth, without any script-derived reason do do so. As you wrote,
Like I said, I am having to create ideas to make it work, as we get NOTHING about Alice at all. It's merely a possibility because, just as nothing in the film hints at her having early onset Alzheimers, nothing says that she doesn't have it either.
Exactly, and I am using "the argument from silence" to support my contention that an invention of a mentally-impaired Alice probably goes too far.
And while I agree with you, you do understand that I am merely trying to create a scenario to make the scene work, right? The fact is that there is the sound of the demon that is always present when something evil is happening. Ergo, the demonic presence is there. Blatty has left us with a situation to where we are forced to try our best to make sense of the scene. I definitely would have showed Kinderman AT LEAST notice that the statue was gone from its original position. Also, I like you idea posted earlier about a nurse lurking about, as opposed to Alice. Again, though, what we see in the finished film is what we have got to work with.
(the demon would surely have done some serious psychic or physical damage to the detective)
There I disagree with you. The demon and/or Gemini want to toy with Kinderman, hence the whole plan to get Temple to make sure that Kinderman visits the man in the cell to start with. Doing damage to the detective would only get in the way of the larger plan, to watch Kinderman try to solve the murders and to come face to face with his own disbelief in the supernatural. There is no denying that the demon has a presence during the scene we are discussing, but since it obviously is not trying to harm the detective, we must assume that it is simply toying with him.
So the red shoes may, at best, be an allegorical red herring.
Well, the reference to
The Red Shoes and to Julie taking dance class was all included for a reason and not just a completely random line. I mean, I had to look up red shoe quotes to even get the line to begin with. I knew it was referencing something, but I had completely forgotten about the tale that I was vaguely familiar with long ago. I don't think it was a coincidence that Alice had red shoes on. Watch out for red shoes! Of course, as you say, nothing comes of it regardless.
Even if the demon did (much more physically/laboriously) move the statue by dragging, the dragging sound has a much too short duration. There is a lot of floor space to cover (not to mention those stairs, if the statue's original position was on the ground floor).
Pay closer attention to the scene. The original placement of the statue was not moved from a different floor. It is right there on the same level where Alice runs into Kinderman. It is in the middle of the same door Kinderman comes out of to investigate. It was moved to the hallway over to Kinderman's left, shown right after Kinderman glances down the hallway and the lights flicker on and off.
Joker statue:
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wdXinzVPk0w/VzNxrU3HkYI/AAAAAAAABrE/W0D053_fHHcxtAmy32d8_RajgM00SIAdgCLcB/s1600/vlcsnap-00030.pngDragging sound at 24 seconds...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2j3apVleS4Visit pictures 60, 61 and 63 at the following site for proof that the statue was on the same floor, and for proof that the statue is exactly the same as the Joker statue, only the cross becomes a knife and the head is changed to Joker:
http://movielocationsandmore.blogspot.com/2012/09/exorcist-iii-1990.html (just click any picture and it will take you to a page featuring the picture where you can navigate across the bottom to the desired number[s])
Thanks again for your thoughts. It's fun to kick this stuff around with a fellow-fan.
Agreed!
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I am not a fan. I just happen to enjoy movies. Fans are embarrassing.
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bastasch8647
8 years ago
Thanks again for your careful analysis. You wrote,
you do understand that I am merely trying to create a scenario to make the scene work, right?
Yes, I do. I understand you weren't laying down rules or trying to be dogmatic - I've done the same thing myself with this film (particularly the mechanism of possession and the presence of Paul Morning) and with the Friedkin film.
The original placement of the statue was not moved from a different floor
Right. You've convinced me on this point - the chandelier is one big piece of evidence, as are the ornate doors. Thanks, too, for the link that has those big, beautiful photos which illustrate your point so well.
And thanks for the movie link - yes, I do hear the dragging sounds. Excellent catch on your part. It does suggest that the demon is somehow pushing or dragging a heavy object, which I am willing to concede is probably the statue (what else is out in the hallway that would account for a heavy dragging noise?). I do still think that the demon "should" have levitated the statue noiselessly, but it seems that, for whatever reasons, the demon chose the noisy route. Also I can now see that it has to be the same statue only with a dagger and different head/face - e.g., it's still holding the red prayer book in its right hand. Again, I concede your good observations.
There is no denying that the demon has a presence during the scene we are discussing, but since it obviously is not trying to harm the detective, we must assume that it is simply toying with him.
Conceded: the demon probably didn't want to physically harm Kinderman, so would prefer just to mess with him - at least up until the demon/the Gemini starts to choke Kinderman in his own home.
Well...that was brisk! I've just learned a lot from your keen and intelligent observations - thanks. ... One lingering question, what do you think the statue really was, what do you think Blatty meant it to be? If it's just visionary, why does it seem to have bulk enough to make a heavy dragging sound - or is that sound just part of the vision? But if it's physical, we have a real statue that has been moved "out of place" - which would create a small real-world question, as to who moved it, and why... Also, at the very beginning of the scene, a typewriter is heard - is this Alice finishing typing the speech? I wonder if Kinderman and the university president would have heard it at such a distance...
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TheSolarSailor
8 years ago
Thanks again for your careful analysis.
You are welcome. I appreciate you taking the time to discuss it with me and to offer up your own points of view on the scene!
Yes, I do. I understand you weren't laying down rules or trying to be dogmatic - I've done the same thing myself with this film (particularly the mechanism of possession and the presence of Paul Morning) and with the Friedkin film.
It is like the Xmen movie franchise, of which I am a fan. The continuity between films is awful at times, and I freely admit that, but as a fan I like to create my own scenarios to help explain away the inconsistencies. They certainly are not a rule that others have to abide by, but just my own personal way of getting it to make better sense since I am a fan and enjoy them so much. That is what I found myself wanting to do with this scene in Exorcist III. I love the movie, but admit that the scene is flawed. But I want it to work!
I do still think that the demon "should" have levitated the statue noiselessly, but it seems that, for whatever reasons, the demon chose the noisy route.
I could probably create some excuses for it! Example: Maybe the demon is not inhabiting anyone at all. Maybe we are just experiencing it's ethereal presence, and maybe all it can do in this ethereal form is small things such as poltergeist-like disturbances, though much more subdued in form. I always want to go back to the line about the spirit not being enough. Without form or possession, this is the most the demon can do in our real world.
One thing I like better about the Theatrical Cut is the absolute presence of the demon itself. In the director's cut, I feel like the demon's only role is to give his son the Gemini another chance to continue his work and through him exact revenge on certain parties who were responsible for it being expelled from a certain young girl. The Director's Cut is the Gemini's story. The Theatrical Cut opens the way for the demon itself to take on more of a role and have a much more active presence. Do you concur with this viewpoint?
at least up until the demon/the Gemini starts to choke Kinderman in his own home.
Yep, after the Gemini's final warning! I love that line, "final warning, lieutenant!"
what do you think the statue really was, what do you think Blatty meant it to be? If it's just visionary, why does it seem to have bulk enough to make a heavy dragging sound - or is that sound just part of the vision? But if it's physical, we have a real statue that has been moved "out of place" - which would create a small real-world question, as to who moved it, and why...
Good questions. I was disappointed that the statue scene was not discussed on the new Bluray at all. There was one mention of Blatty being adamant about the Joker head on the statue, but nothing else was said about it. I don't think it was just visionary, honestly. As you say, the statue was physically moved. Either the demon manifested enough power to move the statue, or my idea of a possessed Alice did it, seeing that possession gives the body added strength. It is impossible to say what happened since we only hear the moving sound and see the end result.
The why? Well, this is where you are absolutely right in your critique. The scene doesn't work as far as internal logic is concerned. I think Blatty made a misstep here, as the scene seems more intent of creating a scary mood for we the audience. But like you say, it has no impact at all on the characters, unless of course we create our own reasons like I attempted to do earlier in the thread. Perhaps Blatty wanted the Joker head so badly to merely draw attention to the statue having been moved, and to try to get the point across that the demon was toying with Kinderman. Joker, practical jokes, ha ha! Without adding our own fiction to the scene, though, it is just a bit of a misfire. I think it is a very eerie scene and I like it, but the statue fails the logic test when all is said and done because no one in the film is even remotely aware of it!
Also, at the very beginning of the scene, a typewriter is heard
Now see, for some odd reason I did not notice the sound of the typewriter!!!!!
I just wanted to add one more observation to our Alice debate from earlier...it is strange that the evil demonic presence seems to depart when Alice leaves!
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bastasch8647
8 years ago
Without adding our own fiction to the scene, though, it is just a bit of a misfire.
Yes, that's the key issue with this scene... as we've discussed, it would have been better if Kinderman's eerie encounter had been with the out-of-place nurse...
I just wanted to add one more observation to our Alice debate from earlier...it is strange that the evil demonic presence seems to depart when Alice leaves!
Yeah, it's strange and interesting. Then there's that typing. Is it Alice - seems unlikely because she has such a distance to cover to get to the president's office - she seems to far away for her typing to be heard in the office... and then there's that "Regan giggle". People, myself included, have thought it was virtually identical to the demon's giggle in the Friedkin film. But was it the "ghostly imprint" of Regan, or was it Alice giggling, which just happens to sound like the Regan giggle? But then, why would Alice be giggling - was the demon prompting her to startle Kinderman (your theory of a possibly Alzheimer Alice) - and the demon was giggling in anticipation?
Without form or possession, this is the most the demon can do in our real world.
Yes, I think that theory works for the actual movement of the statue. But to create the ornate Joker face and to materialize the dagger would seem to indicate a more than merely ethereal power...!
One thing I like better about the Theatrical Cut is the absolute presence of the demon itself. In the director's cut, I feel like the demon's only role is to give his son the Gemini another chance to continue his work and through him exact revenge on certain parties who were responsible for it being expelled from a certain young girl. The Director's Cut is the Gemini's story. The Theatrical Cut opens the way for the demon itself to take on more of a role and have a much more active presence. Do you concur with this viewpoint?
Absolutely. The Theatrical Cut has much more of an "Exorcist feel/ambience" than what I've heard about the DC - the demon is very much more in the forefront in the Theatrical Cut, almost as the Gemini's own shadow. After being positively bombarded with the demon - its hate, its power - in the Blatty novel and the Friedkin film, the DC seems rather a wet firecracker. The demon - which is the motive force behind the entire story - is reduced to a kind of weak puppeteer's role.
But in the Theatrical Cut, the demon itself emerges toward the end of the film. It speaks to both Morning and Kinderman - not as Vennamun or Karras, but as its own vile self. When it refers to "my son, the Gemini" it's making clear that it's the original demon who is taking revenge through the Gemini-occupied body of Karras. This dialogue confirms what Vennamun has previously asserted about the manner, method, and purpose of Karras' resuscitated corpse, and about the two alternating personalities that dwell within it.
Because, as you say, the Theatrical Cut permits the demon to be more present/active...and, at the end, self-descriptive, this allows the story to be linked directly to what went before it in Blatty's book and Friedkin's film. The story virtually cries out for the demon to be present in an active role, so that the viewer can sink his/her teeth into the reality of the evil that has come back to haunt Georgetown's damp night streets. Miller/Dourif are phemonenal in suggesting this evil, but having the Great Instigator return to the story in person is much more than frosting on the cake - it becomes almost an essential, core element.
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TheSolarSailor
8 years ago
Then there's that typing.
If you don't mind my asking, where are you hearing the typewriter? Is it in the video I linked earlier? I turned up the volume and reviewed the Youtube link, and all I hear in the video is the creepy whispering of what I assume to be Latin (maybe), the Regan giggle, the sliding sound of the statue, and the creaking of the doors as they move or when Kinderman opens one. Is the typing in the Youtube scene, or does it take place a bit before the video starts, perhaps when the clock stops?? (Sorry, I don't feel like putting in the Bluray at the moment!!)
But to create the ornate Joker face and to materialize the dagger would seem to indicate a more than merely ethereal power...!
Maybe the Joker face is there for no other reason than to clue in the audience? I mean, maybe if Kinderman had walked down the hallway and noticed the out of place statue himself, it would have looked normal??
The demon - which is the motive force behind the entire story - is reduced to a kind of weak puppeteer's role.
Yes, my view exactly!
the Theatrical Cut permits the demon to be more present/active...and, at the end, self-descriptive, this allows the story to be linked directly to what went before it in Blatty's book and Friedkin's film. The story virtually cries out for the demon to be present in an active role
Interestingly enough, I think the scene in the hallway that we have been discussing becomes more problematic in the Director's Cut. We know that the Gemini is given the power to possess other bodies, but since the demon is not really participating and instead is letting the Gemini do the work, one must wonder why the hallway scene with the statue would happen at all. Why would the Gemini have the power to move the statue, cause the Regan giggle, etc. In the Director's Cut, it would become even MORE essential for Alice to be possessed by the Gemini. I think the demon's active presence in the Theatrical Cut makes the hallway scene more plausible.
Miller/Dourif are phemonenal in suggesting this evil, but having the Great Instigator return to the story in person is much more than frosting on the cake - it becomes almost an essential, core element.
Beautifully worded!
Will you be getting the Bluray any time soon, bastasch8647?
- - - - - - -
I am not a fan. I just happen to enjoy movies. Fans are embarrassing.
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bastasch8647
8 years ago
Thanks for the kind words!... I don't have a blu ray player, but maybe for Christmas, or maybe I can find a friend who has one.
The typing is heard at the very beginning of the scene at 0.43.25 with the dark campus showing the Founder's statue, continuing to be heard in the hallway when the normal St. Ignatius statue is shown, and it immediately cuts off when the shot goes to the president's office. I guess that's Blatty telling us that the typing can't be heard behind the president's closed doors, but can be heard in the hallway. So when the doors open, we don't hear the typing, as Alice apparently has finished the speech, but then we do hear the Regan giggle. So is it Alice who giggles? It sounds like it could be the actress... and after all, what use is a Regan giggle to anyone but those who saw the Friedkin film? Kinderman and the university president never met "that McNeil kid".
I think the scene in the hallway that we have been discussing becomes more problematic in the Director's Cut. We know that the Gemini is given the power to possess other bodies, but since the demon is not really participating and instead is letting the Gemini do the work, one must wonder why the hallway scene with the statue would happen at all. Why would the Gemini have the power to move the statue, cause the Regan giggle, etc. In the Director's Cut, it would become even MORE essential for Alice to be possessed by the Gemini. I think the demon's active presence in the Theatrical Cut makes the hallway scene more plausible.
Great observation deserving to be cited in full. Yes, it would seem that, in his dedication to understatement and conservatism, Blatty way underplayed the demon and its influence in the Director's Cut. And I can see how that would have made the hallway scene more difficult to understand.
Off-topic, but another scene that I don't like is where Kinderman stands directly in front of the headless Christ bust when he's waiting for an elevator and doesn't even notice it. Blatty cops out by having Scott use body language suggestive of stress, frustration and deep concentration. To me, that's no excuse for him missing this huge clue in solving the Kintry murder. And it's a bad wannabe jump scare with the blaring music. It isn't scary, and it just makes the "brilliant" Kinderman look incompetent.
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apollo86
8 years ago
I've always thought of the "Regan giggle" as just for us the audience to hear, like an audio equivalent of the subliminal imagery Friedkin used in the original- just a short little nod to put us in mind of the original and what drove Karras over the edge (especially as it comes straight after the President saying "the one that killed him") . Having viewed the scene again it's hard to judge whether they are reacting to the giggle or the door creaking open as they happen in quick succession.
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bastasch8647
8 years ago
Yes, it could be either the giggle or the door opening - Blatty made it really ambiguous...
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8 years ago
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bastasch8647
8 years ago
Yeah...I think the scene would have been spooky enough without the statue and Alice. I would have cut it out, with the only remaining parts being Kinderman and the university president being distracted by the wind that shifts the papers and blows open the door. No need at all for a jump scare that doesn't deliver.
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