So who lost more?


Why was it never revealed what the Soviet losses were? I loved the Cold War, but I hated how in every Cold War movie the U.S. losses were depicted as much more severe than that of the Soviets. Just like The Sum of All Fears, the U.S. lost a city and an aircraft carrier while the Russians merely lost an airbase. At least in Red Dawn obviously the U.S. won that war between the Soviets and in Rambo II and III one American destroyed many of those Commie b@$tard$! I also liked Firefox seeing Clint Eastwood infiltrate the Soviet KGB and stealing their superjet.

In this movie obviously a good portion of our military strength was caught with our pants down. It would be nice to think that the U.S. did just as much if not more damage to their military. I know that if I were the President I would not act as insane as Condor but I would ensure that their military suffered the same fate as ours.

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The soviet union is massive and the population is spread out compared to the US. Though in this movie, I'd guess the soviets got hit harder since China also launched missiles at the soviet union as part of a treaty with us.

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true since the Chinese also retaliated Im sure the Soviets got hit really hard



When there's no more room in hell, The dead will walk the earth...

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so what your saying is that you want more of their innocent people to die than yours?...nice, real nice.

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So what you are saying is that you want more of OUR innocent people to die than theirs? It works both ways.

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Military losses, not the innocent. It really bothered me when they told the Condor that most of our bombers were caught on the ground and the Soviets turn a whole sqaudron of bombers for 1 turning.

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You don't get to find out the USSR losses in "The Day After" either.

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That movie was nothing but garbage and terror propaganda. One of the worst movies ever made, and it came out in 1983 at the height of the Star Wars program. Gald to see that the makers of that movie watched the news.

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This movie came out in 1990 not 83 get your facts straight

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Pronouns. "That" movie -- The Day After -- was released in 1983.

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"I know that if I were the President I would not act as insane as Condor but I would ensure that their military suffered the same fate as ours."

Thankfully, you aren't.

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To even ask that question is to miss the entire point of nuclear war. The real question should be, does it matter? As soon as an all out nuclear war begins, both sides have already lost. Does it matter whether we killed a hundred million or a hundred-fifty million of "theirs"? As the Admiral correctly says in the movie (and I'm paraphrasing slightly here), nuclear war isn't a game where you can just add up the death tolls to see who won. The implication made in most of these movies, and this is no exception, is that both sides have been devastated to the point where they are barely able to function. Isn't that enough?

If it makes you feel any better though, the book upon which this is based made it clear that the USSR was effectively turned into a wasteland following a multi-wave U.S. counterstrike, supplemented by a wave of Chinese missile attacks.

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"If it makes you feel any better though, the book upon which this is based made it clear that the USSR was effectively turned into a wasteland following a multi-wave U.S. counterstrike, supplemented by a wave of Chinese missile attacks."

Well, it would make me feel better that God forbid this ever happens that we come out on top because Americans are destined to always prevail and never lose a war, paraphrasing the great General Patton. I would hate to think that our great free country would ever have to submit to some idiotic forgein idea of politics; communism, socialism, totalitarianism, etc.

Call me a right wing nutjob, an ultra-conservative, nationalist, whatever. But believe you me mister winning is EVERYTHING! Go America, U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!
U-S-A!

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I know excuses and conspiracy theories for that defeat have been thrown left and right for 50 years, but it just is what it is. Might have been well before your time but it happened. No shame; the Vietnamese are a tough people with a very great culture. Sorry to burst the old proverbial bubble though.

Anyhow, the jingoism is cute. I know you're just being tongue in cheek.

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Just what in the world are you talking about? FYI OUR boys WON ALL BATTLES in Nam. Recently watched a great documentary on NatGeo about Nam and all the American vets said "We didn't lose, we left."

A cease was signed in 73 with South Vietnam still free from those Commie Bastards, then after we are outta the way, the NVA invades South Nam and we know the rest of the story as Paul Harvey used to say. Because of that "experts" say we "lost" the war.

Bull$h!t, we didn't lose nothing, our boys won all military engagements in the Nam, PAtton was right, Americans are destined never to lose a war and I believe wholeheartedly in those immortal words.

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A cease was signed in 73 with South Vietnam still free from those Commie Bastards, then after we are outta the way, the NVA invades South Nam and we know the rest of the story as Paul Harvey used to say. Because of that "experts" say we "lost" the war.


A naive type you are. Wars are not isolated incidents, wars have political ends. Clausewitz said that war is an extension of diplomacy. By going into Vietnam the Americans were trying to stem the tide against communism and prevent south Vietnam from falling to the various communist/North Vietnemese forces. Did they suceed in this? Most of the experts say no, but I guess since Vietnam is now a unified, capitalist and democratic society I guess you're right.

Its possible to win a war militarily and lose politically, this is what happened in Vietnam because they were fighting an unwinnable war and because there were no clear political ends. As soon as Nixon signalled that he wanted out of Vietnam, he had in effect lost the war. How would you feel as a soldier serving a war when your president and CIC says he doesn't want you there? That you're fighting for nothing?

Americans lost Vietnam, they lost in 1812, they'll probably lose in Afghanistan and who knows about Iraq. There's no shame in this. When Britain ruled the world they lost the odd war here and there. As did the Romans and all the other great powers of history. By refusing to acknolwedge you've lost, you refuse to learn the lessons and adapt, and thus hasten your own downfall.





http://www.last.fm/user/399796kms/

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"they lost in 1812"

A naive type YOU are.

The Americans never lost the War of 1812, it was technically a stalemate with neither claiming or losing anything. And just to add credibility to the American military might after the Treaty of Ghent was signed Jackson's forces ROUTED a British invasion at New Orleans. Stop reading "A People's History of the United States" and pick up a history book that contains facts and not liberial bull$h!t.

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The United States gained few, if any, of it's war aims. It did not stop impressment, it did not stop the British blockade, it did not take Canada. They did get the UK to agree to stop supporting Indians in the American Mid-West, an easy concession to make as the British weren't supporting them anyway.

The British agained all they wanted from the war - they didn't lose Canada and they didn't give up the right to re-impose impressment or blockade. While they did later abolish impressment in favour of more modern recruitment and conscription techniques, they did reimpose blockade the next time they faced a war as serious as that against Bonaparte.

As for the staus of military operations at the end of the war, the US had, at least for the time being, stopped the British from advancing up the Mississippi, but large parts of Maine and Michigan, as well as Mobile, Alabama were in British hands at the end of the war while only the border town of Fort Erie, Ontario was in US hands. American coastal shipping could only operate under British license, and the RN could and did land troops at will along the American coast.

That looks like a loss to me.

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The United States gained few, if any, of it's war aims. It did not stop impressment, it did not stop the British blockade, it did not take Canada. They did get the UK to agree to stop supporting Indians in the American Mid-West, an easy concession to make as the British weren't supporting them anyway.

The British agained all they wanted from the war - they didn't lose Canada and they didn't give up the right to re-impose impressment or blockade. While they did later abolish impressment in favour of more modern recruitment and conscription techniques, they did reimpose blockade the next time they faced a war as serious as that against Bonaparte.

As for the staus of military operations at the end of the war, the US had, at least for the time being, stopped the British from advancing up the Mississippi, but large parts of Maine and Michigan, as well as Mobile, Alabama were in British hands at the end of the war while only the border town of Fort Erie, Ontario was in US hands. American coastal shipping could only operate under British license, and the RN could and did land troops at will along the American coast.

That looks like a loss to me.


Technically speaking, it wasn't a loss. The Treaty of Ghent pretty much made things as they were before the War of 1812 began. The British blockade and impressment were no longer issues after the defeat of Napoleon.

The main issue from the American point of view was that there was fear that the British would come in and take over the United States, turning us into a colony again. Since we retained our independence and gained greater respectability in the world, I would consider that to be a partial victory. (I also don't think the British could have effectively maintained any long-term occupation of America. It would have been costly for them over the long haul, and it probably wasn't really worth it from their point of view.)

Even if the British weren't terribly impressed by the Americans, other powers (such as Spain) did manage to sit up and take notice, which is a large part of the reason we annexed Florida without actually having to go to war with Spain. If we had lost the Battle of New Orleans, Spain might have put up more of a fight to keep Florida.

True, the U.S. did not gain Canada, but it can be argued that the eventual annexation of Florida and Texas were due largely in part to the U.S. victory over the British at New Orleans. The Northern politicians wanted Canada, while the Southern politicians wanted Florida and Texas, so the idea was that the Southern politicians would support going to war for Canada, as long as the Northern politicians supported the subsequent annexation of Florida and Texas. Florida was annexed peacefully in 1819, but it would be another 26 years after that for Texas to be annexed.

The American victory at New Orleans also emboldened President Monroe to announce the Monroe Doctrine, which was a cornerstone of our foreign policy for well over a century (and the Europeans knew it, too).

Another aspect of the War of 1812 is that within America, the previous political divisions had evaporated for a while. There was a greater feeling of national unity in the country and a sense of national pride. Another thing that should be mentioned is that the British never again dared to attack America. They even ceded the Red River territory (1818), northern Maine (1842), and the Oregon Territory (1846), so they were definitely willing to negotiate and compromise with us. Eventually, the British realized that investing in America was far more fruitful and productive than trying to muscle us.

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Most of the experts say no, but I guess since Vietnam is now a unified, capitalist and democratic society I guess you're right.

Unified, yes. Capitalist, partly, Democratic, not at all. The Socialist Republic of Vietnam is still a one-party, totalitarian state with a poor human rights record. Like China, it's simply changed from a classically Marxist state to a quasi-Fascist one

Its possible to win a war militarily and lose politically, this is what happened in Vietnam because they were fighting an unwinnable war and because there were no clear political ends.

I don't agree it was unwinnable. The ARVN was turning into a reasonably competent force and the US had the ability to sharply reduce or even cut the North's logistic support from China and the Soviet Block. Even with the highly flawed Paris agreements that allowed NVA forces to stay in the South, the South was able to successfully resist the 1972 invasion. In 1975, though, the US had cut the ARVN supplies while the North still had support from two superpowers.

It had become very difficult to win politically. The Johnson Administration had basically squandered much of the American will to fight. The defeatist ascendancy in Congress beginning in 1968 (as well as the discrediting of the Republicans thanks to Nixon) led to the withdrawal of support for the pro-Western forces in Vietnam and Cambodia and the victory of the Communists.

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A naive type you are. Wars are not isolated incidents, wars have political ends. Clausewitz said that war is an extension of diplomacy. By going into Vietnam the Americans were trying to stem the tide against communism and prevent south Vietnam from falling to the various communist/North Vietnemese forces. Did they suceed in this? Most of the experts say no, but I guess since Vietnam is now a unified, capitalist and democratic society I guess you're right.


In terms of the overall Cold War, some might say that Vietnam is one battle that we lost, while still ultimately winning the overall struggle against communism.

I was rather young during the Vietnam War, and while I was growing up in America at the time, I didn't even know there was a war. There were no bombings from the North Vietnamese air force. I didn't see any NVA invasion forces coming into America. I felt pretty safe and secure. Of course, that doesn't make America "invincible," but barring any kind of nuclear attack, America was pretty safe from its enemies. That's no myth. America has not had a war fought on its soil since the Civil War. The last foreign invader we had to deal with was the British in the War of 1812.

And that was a large part of the reason the war was opposed by Americans, since we were perfectly safe and in no danger of any invasion from Vietnam. People couldn't understand what we were doing there or why American blood was being shed for these people living 10,000 miles away. (Americans were mostly isolationists 30 years earlier, so much of what was going on seemed way out of kilter.)

We didn't really "lose" anything from that war, especially since Vietnam was never our colony to begin with. It was probably France which lost most of all. All we were trying to do was correct a French mistake. But I think we know now that when the French screw something up, it's beyond fixing.

In any case, the Americans inflicted far more damage upon the Vietnamese than they inflicted upon us. The real tragedy is that the Vietnamese could have enjoyed complete independence after World War II and might have even become an important partner with the West due to its strategic location. Their economy would be much better, too. Unfortunately for all concerned (and especially the Vietnamese), Ho Chi Minh was a son of a bitch. He had the blue balls, crabs, and the seven-year itch.


Its possible to win a war militarily and lose politically, this is what happened in Vietnam because they were fighting an unwinnable war and because there were no clear political ends. As soon as Nixon signalled that he wanted out of Vietnam, he had in effect lost the war. How would you feel as a soldier serving a war when your president and CIC says he doesn't want you there? That you're fighting for nothing?

Americans lost Vietnam, they lost in 1812, they'll probably lose in Afghanistan and who knows about Iraq. There's no shame in this. When Britain ruled the world they lost the odd war here and there. As did the Romans and all the other great powers of history. By refusing to acknolwedge you've lost, you refuse to learn the lessons and adapt, and thus hasten your own downfall.


I already commented about the War of 1812, but as for Vietnam and the larger Cold War of which it was part, we're still trying to sort out just what in the heck happened. A lot of information is still kept secret, even though some classified information has been released since the end of the Cold War. Conspiracy theories about what our government was doing still abound.

Another thing about Vietnam was that we were bound by international treaties which meant (among other things) that we weren't really supposed to fight any kind of aggressive war. We had already (foolishly) ceded North Vietnam to the communists, so we put ourselves into a box, geopolitically speaking. There were fears that a U.S. invasion of North Vietnam would escalate the Cold War to dangerous proportions, and that's what really made the difference. The British never had to worry about that, nor did the Romans. If Napoleon or Nicholas I had nuclear weapons, I'm sure the British would have taken that into consideration when formulating their geopolitical agenda.

Nixon ran on the platform of "peace with honor," so he wasn't signaling a U.S. loss or surrender. Many wars have been concluded honorably by mutual agreement, without a declared "winner" or "loser." Both sides decide they don't want to fight anymore, and there's nothing wrong with that at all.

Nixon was looking at the big picture which involved the USSR and Red China. By recognizing China, Nixon established a foundation for friendship and cooperation which was vital in our overall Cold War strategy against the Soviet Union. If that meant pulling out of Vietnam, then that's what had to be done. Considering that we had gained a powerful ally of convenience against the Soviets - and that we didn't lead ourselves into a nuclear war - it's probably the best decision that could have been made under the circumstances.

When North Vietnam broke the agreement and continued its war against South Vietnam, that may be where the "loss" occurred, since we didn't send our forces back and continue our military operations. But by that time, Nixon had already resigned in disgrace, inflation was out of control, OPEC quadrupled oil prices, and Ford was politically weak and embattled. Carter was even weaker than Ford, but even then, it would have been too late to try to do anything about Vietnam anyway. U.S. attentions had shifted towards the Middle East at that point.

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Ater a nuclear war there wouldn't be any -ism to follow or submit to.

And you are right, you are a right-wing nutjob.

---
Top 5: Jaws, Shrek, Fucling Åmål, [Rec]. Add more if I find any top movies

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[deleted]

"In the nuclear age, the real enemy is war itself."

-Lt. Commander Hunter, Executive Officer, USS Alabama, as portrayed by Denzel Washington in "Crimson Tide."

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Dude, let me tell you a story.

Couple of years ago, i gone visit the family of one of my friend in my platoon, he was KIA in Diyala Region, Central Iraq.

I talked to his wife, son and parents. Tell him he done a very good job, he get a lot of bad guys in the time that was needed and save the lot of us.

You know what his father say?

"No matter how many he killed, it wouldn't bring my son back, if i have a choice between his duty and my son, what do you think i would choose?"

War have no winner, just remember that. No matter how many goal you achieve, how many people you've killed, it's just statistic, but when your loved one are one of the statistic, then everything will mean nothing to you.

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well said HM, I hope the OP learns something from that. Doubtful though.

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