MovieChat Forums > Back to the Future Part III (1990) Discussion > More plot holes

More plot holes

posted 8 years ago by deli584876
42 replies | jump to latest

Yeah yeah I know it's just a movie but there's a few things that always bothered me.

1. Okay so Marty goes back to the old west to save Doc from being shot by Buford. But an Indian arrow rips the fuel line and spills all the gas out. So it won't run due to lack of fuel. Obviously there were no gas stations in 1885 so they have to find a way to artificially push the delorean up to 88 mph and send them back to 1985 and Doc is saved.

But here's the kicker. Doc wrote Marty a letter and had it sent to him via Western Union with the instruction of him receiving it 70 years later. So why couldn't Doc simply go back to WU and add a page to his letter saying "PS if you decide to come here to rescue me, please bring an extra can of gas"?

2. Wouldn't it disrupt the space time continuum less if Doc brought Clara back with him to 1985? She was supposed to have died in 1885 but Doc and Marty intervened. So with her living and getting married to Doc and having children with him in the 1800's, it would drastically change the future. Their kids would eventually find wives and have kids who would eventually find spouses and have more kids, and so on. But those wives that Doc and Clara's sons would marry were originally supposed to have married and had kids with different men. So it would erase generations of people as well as events and accomplishments done by them. If Doc and Clara married and had kids in the 1980's, it wouldn't disrupt anything. Their sons would marry women who never existed or had kids and life would run its course.

3. Wouldn't Doc be caught in an endless time loop? If he lived the rest of his life in the old west, he would have died somewhere from the early 1900's to about the 1920's. But would be reborn a few decades later and his life would start all over and it would keep going!!

[–] TxMike 8 years ago

So why couldn't Doc simply go back to WU and add a page to his letter saying "PS if you decide to come here to rescue me, please bring an extra can of gas"?

You mean after Marty arrives to 1885, and after Doc learns all the fuel is gone, at that time go back to WU and send another letter telling him to bring an extra can of fuel? (gas wouldn't work)

If that is what you mean I suppose the scriptwriters could have done that. But then it would not have provided the story and ending they wanted, would it?

In a broader sense, when looking at "options" in a fictional script, any number of different things could have been done with almost every situation. But the scriptwriters have to make choices, based on how they want the story to run its course, so any of us asking "Couldn't they have done so-and-so?" the answer is usually "yes, they could have, if that is what they wanted."

..*.. TxMike ..*..
Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes not. With a time machine I never feel alone.

[–] buddyboy28 8 years ago

None of those are actual plot holes.

On the first two

Doc's not expecting Marty to arrive in 1885 because the time traveller retains their memories in the BTTF world (this is consistent throughout the trilogy). So he can only add extra info to the letter after Marty arrives, which means that Marty will take extra fuel to 1885 with another Marty there with Doc. An other Marty didn't disappear at the mall in part 1, or in 1955 when he went back for the almanac in part 2. So either one Marty stays stuck in 1885 or they both go back. Not really a good idea.

Doc's always overthinking/overreacting about everything. Even if you're right, I don't see it as a plot hole when he never said anything about that to Marty when he said they should take Clara. Just that he didn't think he should do what he's told Marty not to - use it for your own gain. Later he obviously contradicts himself, again very consistent with Doc's character.

[–] deli584876 8 years ago

Busyboy, if pictures, newspapers, and even matchboxes can change while looking at them due to a time altering event, why couldn't a gas can full of fuel appear in the trunk somewhere?

[–] buddyboy28 8 years ago

Completely different situations.

Marty's family comes back in the photo because George and Lorraine are in love and their fate is back on track.

Griff's photo appears in the paper because it's the next day's paper.

The matchbox changes because Marty took one, burned the book thus destroying the alternate reality Biff created, and they are his real self's Auto detailing cards.

A can of fuel can't just appear because Doc adds to or writes a new letter.

If it did that would be a plot hole because it would contradict the rules of the previous movies.

Again, another Marty would have to arrive with it only after the other Marty's already there because Doc's not expecting him, he wants him to just go home. If it happened (which it wouldn't because fuel would be around within a few years anyway), the first Marty would have had to grow old outside of his own timeline until 1955 when his other younger self gets the letter to bring extra fuel or to just not pull the arrow out of the delorean.

Marty's already there, his changes are locked in.

Just like when he goes back to the mall at the end of part 1, or old Biff goes back to 1955 and Marty's there.

[–] TxMike 8 years ago

"Again, another Marty would have to arrive with it only after the other Marty's already there because Doc's not expecting him, he wants him to just go home."

Maybe, but maybe not. Let's try. After Marty arrives and Doc realizes all the fuel is gone he writes a second letter to Western Union, telling them to deliver it, along with the other one, same place and same time. So Marty back when the movie begins no longer gets the one letter, he gets a second one too, "By the way Marty, when you arrived here (against my instructions) your fuel line was punctured, please if you decide to come bring a can of fuel. Two gallons will do."

So Marty would have gotten both letters before he ever traveled back to 1885 so when he decided to go he would bring the fuel, all the rest would happen the way we see it but he would have spare fuel, they would not need to rig the train, etc. And it would have been a quite different movie.

So tell us, why wouldn't it work that way?

..*.. TxMike ..*..
Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes not. With a time machine I can never feel alone!

[–] buddyboy28 8 years ago

After Marty arrives and Doc realizes all the fuel is gone he writes a second letter

So Marty would have gotten both letters before he ever travelled back to 1885

I don't get what you're saying, you've just contradicted yourself.

Doc would be writing the second letter only AFTER Marty has already arrived because he's NOT expecting him. How else is he going to know the fuel line was punctured?

He can make sure he gets as many letters as he wants at the same time to tell him about it but it doesn't change the fact there will be still another Marty waiting with him in 1885 who got only the one letter in the first place in 1955.

[–] TxMike 8 years ago

Well it would work this way, as I visualize it. BTTF3 plays out as we see it, when Marty is with Doc in his barn and they discuss the mishap causing the leaked out fuel, Doc says "Let me write another letter." When he returns from Western Union he says, "Now Marty, let's go check the car and see what we can find in it." When they get there they find a can of fuel neatly tucked into the rear seat area, because the second letter got to Marty before he left to travel back to 1885. There would be no need for two Martys, he would never have traveled to 1885 without the can of fuel in the first place.

Since it is all in an implausible, fictional world then why not?

..*.. TxMike ..*..

[–] buddyboy28 8 years ago

Because even in the sci/fi/fantasy genre you have to stick to the rules you have laid out like Robert Zemeckis and Bob Gale did.

That would be a cheat of the worst kind and a huge plothole in the entire trilogy because the time traveller retain their memories in the BTTF world.

Marty has no memories of his "new" family in part 1, Marty and Doc know the alternative 1985 isn't real when they arrive, and 1985 Doc isn't expecting Marty to arrive in 1885 after he left 1955 Doc at the drive-in.

But a change in the letter would make a fuel can appear, and Marty either doesn't know how or why which would make no sense because he had to have brought it or the memories are transported to him which still makes no sense because of the rules it has set up.

[–] tomsco_au 8 years ago

"Let me write another letter."

I'd imagine that would cause an alternate timeline like what happened in BTTF II.

[–] movienchill31 (222) 6 years ago

Nope wouldn't work because like buddyboy28 said, there will always be a Marty waiting with Doc in 1885. In this case, original Marty(Twin Pines) would have to be stuck in 1885 for 70 years until 1985A Marty(Lone Pine) gets the letter from Western Union to bring more fuel. As was stated Doc can send letter after letter, but that doesn't change the fact that Twin Pines Marty would only get that first letter saying how he was stuck in 1885 and for him to return to 1985 and not save him. Lone pine Marty would get all the letters sent, not Twin Pines Marty.

[–] libra113 8 years ago

What always got me is that 1885 Doc (who is from 1985) SHOULD know everything that 1955 Doc knows. So he SHOULD know that Buford is going to shoot him and WHY Marty is there and that he even dressed Marty in the silly 50's western style clothing.

For that matter Doc should've known, since 1955, that he would end up in 1885 eventually as he even read his own letter himself.

[–] buddyboy28 8 years ago

In the movie's reality, the time traveller retains their memories. It's the rules they stuck with throughout the trilogy - Marty returns to 1985 at the end of the first movie and remembers his family as losers, Marty and Doc return to alternative 1985 and don't have the experiences of been in that world - Switzerland or a mental institution etc, they remember the old Hill Valley.

[–] libra113 8 years ago

Yeah, except those situations it makes sense. In the situation I described it doesn't. There is no reason in all time travel theory I've ever read that 1985 Doc wouldn't already know he was going to be killed, that he sent Marty and that it was his 1955 self that dressed him the silly 50's idea of western clothing.

For that matter 1985 Doc SHOULD know that Marty was going to end up in 1955 at some point, at the very beginning. Actually, that might be how he ended up deciding to befriend Marty in the first place because his 1955 self knew who his parents were and that he would end up traveling back in time so he had to befriend Marty to make sure it all happened.

[–] mcp-69798 8 years ago

It makes sense. The Doc that ends up in 1885 never experiences Marty telling him in 1955 he would be stuck in the Old West and never finds out he would be killed by Buford. The events in the beginning of part III never happen in the 1955 of this Doc. As buddyboy says, time travelers retain their memories. Doc can't remember something that, from his perspective, has never happened.

"You're not thinking 4th dimensionally!"

[–] libra113 8 years ago

Sorry but that makes no sense. I have never heard of any theory of time travel that works that way.

[–] mcp-69798 8 years ago

It works that way in the BTTF universe. Can you explain why do you think what I said "makes no sense"? Marty doesn't remember growing up with a confident and succesful father, does he? He retains his memories from the unaltered timeline he's lived in. Same case with the Doc stuck in 1885 we see in part III.

"You're not thinking 4th dimensionally!"

[–] libra113 8 years ago

Marty does't remember that for two reasons: (1) He is the one who changed the past in the first place and he was outside of his normal time stream when it happened. Pretty much all time travel media and theory supports that.

However, in the case of 1955 Doc he neither changed events nor was he outside his native time stream so there is no reason whatsoever why his wouldn't remember what transpired between he and 1985 Marty down through the years to his 1985 self living in 1885.

I will say "Back to the Future" in general plays fast and loose with how time travel typically works for story conviene but this one always bugged me more than most. Mostly because it wouldn't have really hurt the story to have Doc acknowledge that he remembered sending Marty back to 1885 and putting him in the silly 50's cowboy clothes. In fact it would have helped the story because Marty wouldn't have had to explain to him what was going on he just would've known and even just hinting that Doc has known since 55 that he was going to end up in the old west and kept it to himself for the good of the time stream.

The only way it might have hurt anything would've been explaining why the Doc didn't put something in his letter about being in danger and needed him to come get him out of 1885 or why he didn't just avoid Bufford and thus avoid the whole issues but that could be explained away as he was willing to accept his fate rather than risk the damage to time and he tried to avoid Bufford but no matter what he did history kept winning out.

[–] EmpireKing 8 years ago

I don't know why it matters if you've never heard of any theory of time travel like that. It's all fiction so the filmmakers can make up whatever rules they want about it and these are the rules in Back To The Future. It sounds like you want every time travel movie to have the same scenarios which would be dull.

1985 Doc is just carrying on living his life because Marty wasn't there in 1955 to give him the letter in the first place.

The time traveller's actions may change their surroundings and position in the altered future, and people outside of the time travelling experience sees no change and just knows everything that occurred in their timeline and they don't get a sudden rush of information to make their memories up to date according to the new timeline.

Also, Robert Zemeckis and Bob Gale were clever because they deliberately left things open throughout the trilogy so you could interpret some things for yourself rather than trapping themselves. Which is one of the reasons why the movies remain endlessly fascinating to talk about.

For instance, we definetly know that time travellers keep their memories in these movies there's no disputing that but it's also never explicitly said they never will get those memories at any time later on gradually. We also know the ripple effect is a very common thing in these movies after major changes which admittedly depending on the scenario takes longer or quicker than others.

So Marty goes from 1955 to 1985 in the first movie, Doc instantly has the letter and bulletproof vest which makes sense because he's gone forward through time and Doc has stayed in his own timeline for 30 years.

But when Marty pushed George out of the way of the car he or his brother and sister didn't just erase. The ripple effect meant it took a few days. Same with old Biff altering the past and getting the Delorean back to Hilldale.

Even though Marty is going to see Doc's older self in 1885, he's still going to the past to see the Doc who's outside of his own timeline, and the ripple effect in the previous movies tells us any major changes are not instant, so Doc wouldn't have instant memories anyway should he get any memories all in this scenario.

[–] libra113 8 years ago

No, it's not that they should all the same so much as if they're going to make up rules they should make sense and not just because the rules applied the same through out the movies but they should make logical sense in themselves.

1985 Doc not remembering that 1955 Doc sent Marty to 1885 and that he's going to be shot doesn't make sense.

As for the ripple effect, yeah a LOT of movies, TV shows, etc... have used the delayed effect as a plot device since, it it was instant, there wouldn't be any movie. It also creates a paradox since the minute Marty is erased he wouldn't be there to push George out the way in the first place. :)

Actually, it makes sense that it would take time for them to be fully erased for two reasons: (1) George and Loraine didn't actually fall in love until they kissed at the dance and (2)it would, theoretically, take time for the time line between 1955 and 1985 to reorder itself (so to speak).

Of course, as I've said, "Back to the Future" does play fast and loose with a lot of time travel stuff and characters do seem to be kind of blind to certain thing (Robot Chicken had a funny bit where George accuses Loraine of meeting up with their friend Marty again, after high school, since their Marty looks just like him and has the same name). Mostly, it's unexplained plot convenience and mostly can be forgiven.

This one just kind of bugged me since it's so glaring. It would've been better to just omit the Doc asking him why he was there and who dressed him in his silly outfit and jump right to the scene where Marty's just explained it all to him. That, at least, wouldn't have put such a spotlight on it.

Oh and in regards to Marty and him remembering the old time line. There is a theory that the longer he lived in the new time line the more he would forget the old one and his memories would reorder themselves. Some theories say he would remember both time lines equally.

I've seen some versions where the new memories are formed painfully even causing brain damage and nose bleeds and others where it's just stated that the character remembers both. In any case, as you say, we don't see it, mostly because the doesn't stick around for long. :)

[–] buddyboy28 8 years ago

For that matter Doc SHOULD know that Marty was going to end up in 1955 at some point

Why? Back To The Future doesn't follow the predestined time loop rules of time travel.

[–] libra113 8 years ago

It's called basic memory. Why wouldn't 1985 Doc remember meeting 1985 Marty in 1955? Especially, since he ended up reading Marty's note and wearing a bulletproof vest.

He can't remember SOME of the events and forget the rest. It's all way too much convenient memories syndrome.

[–] buddyboy28 8 years ago

It's called basic memory

No you said 1985 Doc should know that Marty is going to end up in 1955 at some point at the very beginning. He had to befriend him to make sure it all happened.

Like I said it doesn't follow the time travel rules of movies like the original Terminator and Twelve Monkeys, so how would he know before he's gone back?

Why wouldn't Doc remember meeting 1985 Marty in 1955? Especially, since he ended up reading Marty's note and wearing a bulletproof vest

He does in the changed Lone Pine Mall timeline.

"Bulletproof vest. How did you know? I never got a chance to tell you".

[–] libra113 8 years ago

So, if you're friends with someone now and he goes back and meets you at, for example, age 12 and you go through a bunch of stuff and he tells you he knows you and he's from 2016 and all that then you're not going to remember it by the time 2016 rolls around?

You're just somehow going to forget all that?

[–] buddyboy28 8 years ago

What's that got to do with what I posted? It would help if you stayed on topic.

[–] libra113 8 years ago

It's the whole thing I was talking about. It's called an example, they're used to illustrate a point.

[–] buddyboy28 8 years ago

It's the whole thing I was talking about. It's called an example, they're used to illustrate a point

No, it's called you dodging around what I was talking about and bringing up something that wasn't mentioned which is why I quoted you with what I was replying to in the first place.

Let's get this clear. Doc's not expecting Marty in 1885 because the time traveller retains their memories in the BTTF movies and he was outside of his original timeline. I don't care if you don't like that explanation, that's the way it is. I wasn't even interested in talking about that because it's been mentioned enough in this thread.

I wasn't even talking about this movie, I was talking about the first one which you brought up and said that Doc SHOULD know which you posted in capitals to emphasize it, that Marty was going to end up in 1955 at the very beginning and that he knew he was always going to be friends with him which is wrong because BTTF doesn't follow the predestined time loop rules.

[–] Elephantlips 8 years ago

You guys are making my brain hurt.

[–] sanddragon939 7 years ago

I haven't read the BTTF3 novelization fully, but there's an interesting passage about the memory thing I remember reading somewhere online.

The gist of it is that after Marty tells Doc "You did" in response to Doc asking him who dressed him up in that "ridiculous outfit", Doc suddenly remembers the events in 1955 (meeting Marty for a second time, unearthing the Delorean from the mine, seeing the tombstone, sending Marty back to 1885 etc.) When he ponders about why he didn't remember them 'all along' he surmises that its because those events hadn't happened 'yet'...and Marty's appearance in 1885 meant that those events happened, which is how he remembers them now.

Personally, I prefer a simpler approach to the memory thing. The ripple effect, at least as far as memories go, moves only FORWARD in time, not BACKWARDS. So, if a change is made to Doc's past in 1955, it will move forward in time. So Doc in 1961 will remember the early events of BTTF3, as will Doc in 1973 or Doc in 1985.

But Doc in 1885 won't remember because the ripple from the altered 1955 can't reach him when he's in the past relative to his natural timeline.

So, maybe, when Doc travels to the future at the end of the trilogy, the ripple catches up with him and he remembers meeting Marty in 1955 again.

There's one more wrinkle as far as Doc's memories of the early part of BTTF3 go, and it touches upon the paradox at the heart of this film - namely, Doc's tombstone.

In the final Eastwood timeline, the tombstone doesn't exist, which means that Marty and Doc in 1955 shouldn't have seen it at the mine. Which logically should be a paradox since without the tombstone, Marty wouldn't have gone back to 1885 to save Doc in the first place.

Now, the 'fix' to this, which I long ago came up with, is that in the revised sequence of 1955 events, Marty and Doc didn't see the tombstone, but Marty DID visit the local library to look up Doc in the 1880's and he then comes across the photo taken at the Clock Tower inauguration...which now includes both Doc AND him in Old West garb. Suddenly, Marty realizes he's 'destined' to go to the Old West and meet Doc for some reason, and that's how he gets sent back to 1885.

So, if at all Doc gets memories of the revised 1955, he shouldn't remember the tombstone but rather, some alternate sequence of events (like what I've outlined above) which led Marty back to 1885.

Formerly sn939

[–] Kotter7579 7 years ago

if pictures, newspapers, and even matchboxes can change while looking at them due to a time altering event, why couldn't a gas can full of fuel appear in the trunk somewhere?

*sigh* ........deli, this comment alone means you need to watch all three movies again- twice- all deleted scenes AND you are banished to suffer thru the Kirk Cameron Q&A short special.

You'll kill everyone!
But Ice Cream Cake!

[–] movienchill31 (222) 6 years ago

As far as Doc sending a second letter requesting fuel, I'm sure they could have came up with something other than what they ended up doing. I think the whole purpose of putting the car on the train tracks was to end the movie. Doc wanted the time machine destroyed. There was always the chance that a train would come at the exact same time that Marty arrived back in 1985, but it wasn't a guarantee. But again the whole purpose was to end the movie. Destroying the Delorean ended the movie. If he had of written a letter requesting Marty to bring gas when he came back, that probably would have led to more movies being made.

As for him and Clara, The only thing that changed when she didn't die, was they didn't name the ravine after her.

[–] Martoto (4142) 5 years ago

The idea that the Doc and Marty in 1955 would not have filled the tank up regardless, before sending Marty back to 1885, is preposterous. They would have anticipated that much fuel would likely have evaporated in 70 years.

So I don't accept that Marty and the Doc going to the cave and siphoning gas from the Delorean being stored there would have disrupted the continuum one bit. (Nowhere near as disruptive as saving Clara Clayton's life and bringing two new children into being.)

On the other hand though. It's just a movie and it never occurred to me for years that their fuel problems could be solved so easily.

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

"Doc going to the cave and siphoning gas from the Delorean being stored there"

Ah , so theres 2 deLoreans! the one Doc came in and the one Marty came in ...
The fuel in the one Doc came in would be unpunctured , and only a year or so old.
In fact it would be ready to go wouldnt it? screw the one Marty broke , take the other.

What am i missing here?

[–] Martoto (4142) 5 years ago

The time machine that the Doc puts in the cave can't be messed with because that's the one that Doc '55 needs to repair, time circuit wise, using the instructions that Doc buried with it. But the gas doesn't need to be repaired in 1955. It's just gas. Fill her up. And take some spare in a can, geniuses

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

ah , cant use it , but borrow fuel , got it

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

couldnt Doc just refine some oil? its only like building a still surely?

[–] Martoto (4142) 5 years ago

Nope.

[–] MaximRecoil (4054) 2 years ago

Yes, he could've. Basic gasoline is just a light petroleum distillate, therefore he needed some petroleum-based oil (such as kerosene) and a still. Ethanol (which you also get via distillation) can be used as an octane booster. The other additives that are in modern gasoline, such as detergents, lubricants, anti-rust, and anti-icing agents, are irrelevant for short-term use.

[–] Martoto (4142) 2 years ago

In a modern engine which has already blown up from the alcohol they tried to run it on?

[–] MaximRecoil (4054) 2 years ago

First, the engine didn't blow up, but rather, the "fuel injection manifold" was damaged, and second, if he'd made gasoline like he should have, there would have been no reason to try running it off just ethanol, therefore he wouldn't have blown the fuel injection manifold.

Gasoline/ethanol blends such as E10 (90% gasoline, 10% ethanol) are commonly used today. For example:

"E10 became the standard fuel at petrol stations in the United Kingdom as of September 2021."

And:

"E10 is commonly available in the Midwestern United States. It was also mandated for use in all standard automobile fuel in the state of Florida by the end of 2010."

And no, it's not even remotely the same thing as trying to run a gasoline engine on just ethanol.

[–] Martoto (4142) 2 years ago

I wonder why people don't just use stills to make their own gas all the time and not pay the big oil companies. Since it's so fucking easy.

[–] MaximRecoil (4054) 2 years ago

"I wonder why people don't just use stills to make their own gas all the time and not pay the big oil companies."

You're somewhat of a dim bulb, aren't you? You'd still have to pay for it. Where else are you going to get the oil to distill into gasoline? Dig for it in your backyard? On top of that, you'd have to buy ethanol, unless you want to break the law by distilling it yourself. Plus, your homemade gas/ethanol blend wouldn't have detergents, lubricants, anti-rust, or anti-icing agents, so it wouldn't be good for your engine in the long-term.

"Since it's so fucking easy."

Obviously not anywhere near as easy as buying it at a gas station, plus it would probably end up costing you more, not less, since you'd have to pay for the oil, fuel for the still, and ethanol.