MovieChat Forums > Star Trek V: The Final Frontier (1989) Discussion > A Shatnerian Masterpiece...(Dream theory...

A Shatnerian Masterpiece...(Dream theory)


If you look at TFF as a strange dream of Kirks...from the first campsite scene post mountain fall to right at the end of the film with the 'Row Row Row your boat' reprise..then its possible that Trek V is actually a masterpiece of modern day cinema like a Blade Runner or Inception

Consider:

- The events of the movie are a reflection of Kirk's fears: being put back into action while he's unprepared, geting screwed by Starfleet, losing his crew and losing, above all, his friends.
- Events/discussions from the camping trip are mirrored/manifested in the dream: climbing El Capitan/climbing the mountain at the end...the fall from El Capitan/the fall from the turbo shaft...musing around the campfire/musing around the steering wheel....Kirks fear of dying alone/being alone on an uncharted planet with a Godlike alien that wants to kill him.
- The broken and unreliable Enterprise is another fear of Kirk; that no ship can live up to the original.
- The movie follows dream logic: characters appear when needed (Spock in the turboshaft, Scotty in the brig, Spock in the BoP) and reality 'warps' to accomodate the story (70+ decks, the mysterious wheel room, unicorns, sybok, God).
- Kirk ate gods for breakfast, so its no surprise they show up in his dreams. The fight against God' is Kirks subconscious idea of a generic adventure. Likewise, a Klingon is his idea of a generic villain. Also the whole fake God thing can be interpreted as Kirk's own atheist belief that there is no higher power.
- Spock having a brother which was never mentioned before.
- The romantic relationship between Scotty and Uhura.
- A 30 year plus impossible journey to the centre of the galaxy that happens in a few hours.
-the whole Sybok healing everyones pain and the fact that Kirk, Spock and Bones could see each other's illusionary flashbacks.
- the song 'Row, Row, Row Your Boat' ends with the line 'life is but a dream.'
- when going through the great barrier and the 3 are in the mysterious wheel room Bones asks 'are we dreaming?' and Kirk goes 'if we are..then life is a dream'
- going to a mystery planet at the centre of the universe to meet god (who looks like youd expect him to look) only for god to turn out evil has a very dream/nightmare like quality to it
- surviving a photo torpedo detonation by ducking behind a pillar
- Being chased by a floating God head which shoots lightning bolts from it's eyes would have had a very nightmare like quality to it
-The Klingons coming to Kirk's rescue is Kirk's subconcious trying to forgive the Klingon's for the death of his son.
- In the end, Spocks saves his ass, just like he saved Spocks.
- Kirk, Spock and Bones remain together for much of the movie..just like at the campsite..
- And of course the story starting and ending in the same spot, with the Kirk, Spock and McCoy wearing the same clothes.

When you look at the movie as a nightmare, a reflection of Kirks subconscious fears and desires, it actually, somehow, makes *more* sense. In fact, it starts making a *lot* of sense

When people finally realise this what Shatner did its going to be puzzled over and studied and followed... forever....just like was Deckard a Replicant? did the totem fall?

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Amazing.

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That was really worth the read, thanks for making a *beep* film plausibly the best film in existence! :P Now try and do that for the original Batman movie...

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The one with Adam West?

"Oh no...they sent the wrong Spock!"

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Not bad. Next you must try to find the reasons that Alien3 took place in Ripley's cryosleep dreams. Shouldn't be too hard.

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This was awesome.

Kat

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OP made my day....very cool analysis. Always kinda liked this film.

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There is actually a theory that experiencing a film is, psychologically, very similar to a dream, and that the same rules apply -- ie we don't tend to question facts as presented, even when we know differently and, particularly with horror films, we're forced to confront what's Putin front offs, and do so in real time. So looking at a film from this perspective is valid.

When you think about it, films in a sense are simply someone's daydreams put on film. In some it's more obvious than others. Isn't James Bond more an adolescent fantasy than any reflection of real life?

Of course, you can also then follow the theory presented elsewhere on the boards that Picard has been in the Nexus ever since Generations, and the three films that follow are his dream fantasy -- no damn kids, the old man becomes an action hero, etc.

Elsewhere I suggested that Nemesis is more enjoyable seen through stone else,s eyes. I'm looking forward to seeing the film again, this time entirely through Kirks eyes. I think you may have found the key to enjoying it.

(But you did leave out one dreamlike aspect -- his no doubt longstanding desire to see Uhura naked is finally fulfilled!

Also, his horsemanship skills finally prove to be worth something.

He acknowledges to himself that his pain is an essential part of who he is -- part of the "healing power" of dreams -- and acknowledges as well that he's not the only one who ever suffered.

great explorer he is, he's the first to go through "the great barrier". There's also a Freudian subtext there, but I'll let that one go.

He even gets to surrender the burden of command, for a while, to Sybock who, like a father figure, takes him to church to meet God... And like so many adolescents, he ends up questioning, and ultimately rejecting the theology he's given

This just goes on and on, doesn't it?




"After years of fighting with reality, I am pleased to say that I have finally won out over it."

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This isn't a new idea and has been floating around for years, though I never get tired of it. Still, you did a fine job of writing up the idea and analyzing the psychology behind why various things appear in the dream.

Sadly, there is a couple of flaws in the idea. For one, Uhura and Scotty are shown to be flirting well before Kirk goes to sleep at Yosemite that night. Also, Sybok is introduced and even lays siege on Paradise City well before Kirk goes to sleep. I guess we could say that the renegade Vulcan who is of no relation to Spock really did do this and perhaps it was on the news just before they left for shore leave, therefore Kirk's subconscious incorporated it into his dream. Meanwhile, in reality, the Vulcan siege was taken care of and Sybok arrested by others. Now, if only you can tackle the psychology behind why Kirk was dreaming of old Uhura dancing naked!

Other dream-logic moments:

* Nimbus III was said to have been established by the three governments well before a human had ever seen a Romulan.

* The jet boots that were used by Spock earlier show up in the dream, and Spock magically gets many levels ahead of Kirk and McCoy to obtain them, and then comes down from above.

* Everyone on the bridge can see everything that is happening at the rock alter and with God, even though the crew had climbed over hills and should be out of view from the shuttle's camera.

I love this theory right along side the one about Star Trek Generations where Picard never escapes the Nexus and the entire finale with Kirk helping Picard defeat Soran was just another Nexus fantasy for Picard, with Guinan being a figment of his imagination that tells him what he wants to hear. In reality, Veridian III was destroyed and the crew all died. Picard has many adventures in the Nexus as he fights a Borg Queen, discovers a literal fountain of Youth, and faces off against his clone. There is nothing to contradict the theory.

- - - - - - -
Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it?

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regarding discrepancies in the dream (e.g. the opening with Sybok and the bald dude set before Kirk beds down etc) there can be an explanation. the entire opening was still set in Kirks dream! - the opening is very dreamlike, Kirks ascent and fall from the mountain (falling is a very common dream) he is also saved by his best friend Spock (wearing jetboots) another symbolic dream image, the Scotty & Uhura out of nowhere romance, the 'Paradise Lost' siege with weird cat creature is like something from a dream etc.....which would make everything which occurs before they bed down at the campsite the first ‘level’ of the dream - the bed down and what occurred after would be a ‘dream within a dream.’ The only problem with having Kirk dreaming before he falls asleep at the campsite is Kirk falling from El Capitan would be 'the kick' and have shouldve woken him out of his dream!

unless...we have the opening with Sybok and the bald guy and the mountain climb etc as Kirks dream within a dream...he falls (the kick) is woken up into the normal first stage dream at the campsite...then they bed down and fall asleep and everything that occurs after (including being 'woken' by the shuttle) is a dream within a dream until at the end when they around the campfire again its just a dream (with the marsh 'melon' as his totem)

Of course the most rational explanation is as you say the opening, the climb and the siege etc were all real world that kirk knew about beforehand (or maybe checked out on his 23rd century smart phone at the campsite) then incorporated that stuff into his bourbon/marsh melon fuelled dream..

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Maybe someone could do a re-edit as an Inception style dream reality movie

-open the movie with the rock climb/campfire and put the Sybok opening and various other scenes AFTER Kirk beds down...

-insert a brief scene of Kirk staring at one of those blue unicorns with a curious expression....

-include some Inception style "BRRRRAAAWWWs!!" on the score at various points

-let Shatner have his devil/rockmen end in CGI

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potential end for JJ Trek 3:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098382/board/flat/214799383?d=214799383#2 14799383

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Row row row your boat..

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I salute you Bozo 500 for your efforts. What an extreme effort to make this, the worst of the Star Trek movies, uh... salvageable--re imaging beyond the writers' and the director's intent. If it could be swallowed it would raise this to be the same quality as ST, The Motion Picture. Grace is applied to that effort since Star Trek was finding its feet as a movie series. Sadly, though many of you believe William Shatner to be a great actor and perhaps a decent writer, this is irrefutable testimony to the abysmal quality of those er.. talents. Would that The Final Frontier could be stricken from the nexus.

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I salute you Bozo 500 for your efforts. What an extreme effort to make this, the worst of the Star Trek movies, uh... salvageable


thanks.. I like to think of TFF was adrift but salvageable

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Other dream-logic moments:

* Nimbus III was said to have been established by the three governments well before a human had ever seen a Romulan.


There are many possible theories about the chronological discrepancy. Undoubtedly in real life it happened because Star Trek V was made over 20 years after "Balance of Terror" despite being only about 15 years after "Space Seed" in fictional time.

One possible explanation is different productions happening in alternate universes.

This of course could also help with the big chronological problem of the movies from Wrath of Khan to The Final Frontier. "Balance of Terror" and "Space Seed" are both first season episodes and one can probably be no more than about a year before or after the other. The movies from Wrath of Khan to The Final Frontier should all happen within a few months of fictional time - probably less than a year of fictional time.

In Wrath of Khan there are statements that it is fifteen years since Kirk left Khan on Ceti Alpha V, an event which is usually assumed to be right after the last scene in "Space Seed".

TERRELL: What do you want with us? Sir, I demand...
KHAN: You are in a position to demand nothing, sir. I, on the other hand, am in a position to grant ...nothing. What you see is all that remains of the ship's company and crew of the Botany Bay, marooned here fifteen years ago by Captain James T. Kirk.


KIRK: There's a man out there I haven't seen in fifteen years who's trying to kill me.


http://www.chakoteya.net/movies/movie2.html

In The Final Frontier the planet Nimbus III is settled by people from the Federation and the Romulan and Klingon Empires. Romulan representative Caitlin Dar says:

CAITHLIN: Twenty years ago, our three governments agreed to develop this planet together. A new age was born.
TALBOT: Our new age died a quick death. And the settlers we conned into coming here, they were the dregs of the galaxy. They immediately took to fighting amongst themselves. We forbad them weapons, but they soon began to fashion their own.
CAITHLIN: Right! Then it appears I've arrived just in time.


http://www.chakoteya.net/movies/movie5.html


So if Star Trek V: The Final Frontier happens about 19 to 21 years after the Nimbus III treaty, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan should be more than 18 to 20 years after the Nimbus III treaty. Thus "Space Seed" - 14 to 16 years before Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan - should be more than 2 to 6 years after the Nimbus III treaty. And thus "Balance of Terror" - no more than a year before or after "Space Seed" - should be more than 1 to 7 years after the Nimbus III treaty.

But if Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan is in an alternate universe to "Space Seed", an alternate universe where the Enterprise didn't find the Botany Bay until years after "Space Seed", then it would be possible for "Balance of terror" to be before the Nimbus III treaty instead of illogically after the Nimbus III treaty.

Another possible theory is that the Romulan government made a decision shortly before TOS. In one alternate universe the Romulans normalized relations ith the Federation and signed the Numbus III Treaty 20 years before Star Trek V: The Final Frontier. "Space Seed" and the movies from Wrath of Khan to The Final Frontier happen in that timeline. In another alternate universe the Romulans decided to develop super weapons and "Balance of Terror" is in that timeline.

A third possible theory is that "Space Seed" happened soon after "Balance of Terror". About five years after "Space Seed" Kirk checked on Khan at Ceti Alpha V who seemed to be doing fine. The movies from Wrath of Khan to The Final Frontier happen 15 years after Kirk's last visit to Ceti Alpha V and 20 years after "Balance of Terror" and "Space Seed" and the nimbus III treaty.

A fourth possible theory is that Caitlin Dar in The Final Frontier used years about 0.75 times as long as the years Khan and Kirk used in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.

None of those or other possible theories will be necessary if Star Trek V: The Final Frontier was just something that Kirk dreamed.

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bumping in light of the final weeks 😖

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Never thought about it like this before. You're totally right!

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I certainly consider this movie to be a bad dream.

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final scenes of JJs Trek :
The heavily damaged Enterprise is in its final battle with long haired bare chested Khan (Benedict Cumberbatch) and his army of renegade Klingon followers led by Commander Kruge (Jason Moma). Alone, with what was left of the crew evacuated and his bridge crew dead, Captain Kirk (Chris Pine) in a final act of desperation puts the ship on auto destruct and sets the Genesis II carrying enterprise at the centre of a nearby nebula - on the burning bridge he fires all weapons at the armada of ships closing in as onscreen he watches the shuttle pod carrying Carol (Alice Eve) and infant son David escape to safety.... As the enterprise finally destroys Kruge's bird of prey, Kirk sets a collision course with Khans stolen Federation ship USS Reliant which has followed the enterprise into the nebula, and diverts all remaining power to forward phasers....Khans chilling voice is heard on speakers goading Kirk as he sits in the command chair for the final time and launches into a big KHHAAAAAN!! yell... And then, just before everything is about to go kaboom, the burned, bloodied, shirt ripped Kirk closes his eyes and reaches into his pocket..we see a strange look on his face. He pulls out a marshmallow, and starts to hear a overpowering loud noise BRRRRAAAWWWWW!!! then what sounds like Bones shouting 'Get that damn light outta ma face!'....

cut to:
Kirk (CG 1989 Shatner) awaking hungover in his sleeping bag by the deafening noise of a shuttlecraft landing. Empty bottles of bourbon and Romulan Ale surround him along with a copy of Quantum Mechanics Monthly and a bag of half eaten marsh 'melons' near the campfire. A silver haired Uhura (CG'89 Nichols) appears out of the trees and we see Kirk, Spock and Bones (CG'89 Nimoy and Kelley) enter the shuttlecraft. As they leave we see a marshmallow roasting on the fire, but the movie ends before we actually see it burn completely leaving it ambiguous whether he was still dreaming or not

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