MovieChat Forums > My Name Is Bill W. (1989) Discussion > What a JOKE! The Orange Papers

What a JOKE! The Orange Papers


http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-secrets.html

I went to this site to see what this research was all about.

It's laughable! I have never heard of anything so ridiculous in my life.

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Is that an objective analysis? I personally went there and found it to be pretty much in keeping with my own experiences, in the subjective judgements that are made. The research is backed up with an extensive bibliography. What do you have to counter it with?

Would love to know. You sound like you have a bit of a resentment to me. Why ridicule something that so many people find so useful?

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Let's start with this from the "secrets" section:

And note that the Harvard Medical School says that the support of a good spouse is more important than that of a 12-Step group. But A.A. says just the opposite: "Dump your spouse and marry the A.A. group, because A.A. is The Only Way."

There is absolutely nothing in any A.A. literature that states anything like that.

The Alcoholics Anonymous definition of alcoholism is so goofy that A.A.-member therapists won't even agree with this statement:
"Alcoholism is caused by drinking alcohol."


Again, absolutely not in any A.A. literature. In fact, just a little further down the page there is the statement Notice that drinking alcohol is not on that list. Bill Wilson considered everything but drinking alcohol to be the real cause of alcoholism

So that completely contradicts the earlier statement.

How about this one:

All of Chapter Four of the Big Book, "We Agnostics", covers just one subject: how all agnostics and atheists must be converted to having the same religious beliefs as the author Bill Wilson.

Also completely false. The whole point of that chapter and the concept is that a person can have any higher power they choose. There is no religion in A.A. I know several people who use the phrase, "Sun comes up, sun goes down-- everyday and I had nothing to do with it." Just means there is something "greater than ourselves."

I'm sorry if you had a bad experience with A.A. Just like everything else in the world there are a few bad apples out there that an leave a sour taste with some people. If you are clean and sober without any recovery program, I'm just glad you are clean and sober.




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OK, point one, when you're right you're right. In this case, you are 3/4 right. AA lit does not state explicitly that people should dump there families and partners (as far as I am aware...) However, it does talk about removing influences that are negative to sobriety. The point Orange is trying to make is that some people are often told by groups/sponsors that their family is bad for their sobriety, esp if the family doesn't agree with AA dogma. This has not happened from my experience, but I have read stories about it on the net. Perhaps Mr Orange is getting a bit carried away with himself, but that is not to say that it doesn't happen, because it does.....

Point two, I think you are misunderstanding what is being said. AA therapists don't think that alcohol is involved in alcoholism, and neither did Bill W. But clearly, the most direct and obvious symptom of alcoholism is the use of alcohol.

Point three, The AA god must be able to fulfill certain conditions. It must be willing to manage your life for you, it must be willing to remove your defects of charecter, it must remove your desire to stop drinking. This is not just any old "higher power", this is a religion unto itself. The Christian God will not do that, a door nob will not do that, the fact that the sun goes up and down will not do that, and as an aethiest, I can assure you that I find it quite disrespectful to my own beliefs to tell me that a higher power that can do such things could be called anything other than God. Bill, as a believer, had no right to inflict his religious views on aethiests down the decades. Just because you call God a door nob, that doesn't stop god from being god....

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Sounds like someone tried the program and it didn't work for them... Usually the reason people bash AA, otherwise how would they have had any significant exposure to the program?

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And a lot of misinformation from both stephenjrees and Agent Orange.

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Which particular misinformation is that? When I pointed out how you were wrong, you failed to respond. The ball is back in your court to prove that you are not the one providing misinformation.

As for the program not working for me: Well, it didn't need to. I am nearly 4 years clean of heroin. I attended NA/AA for 18 months of that. Nearly bought into the whole "need to attend meetings for the rest of my life" thing. Luckily figured out that this was not true before I worked a single step. Please keep your untrue smears and assumptions about me to yourself. I dont know you, and you dont know me. I think you call it "not taking someones inventory" and it's a "spiritual principle" that is talked of much in the rooms....

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I will answer your points.
Point one:
What influences are negative to sobriety? The book Alcoholics Anonymous talks about how a sober alcoholic should be able to withstand any situation, do or be around anything or anyone without it or them affecting their sobriety. Some people in AA do say stupid stuff, but it is NOT what AA says.

Point two:
There are no AA therapists. And, of course alcohol is involved in alcoholism, how could it not be? The book Alcoholics Anonymous alludes to the fact that you get alcoholism by drinking alcohol. All alcoholics have other things wrong with them, why else would they drink the way they do. They hurt people they love, they cause all kinds of havoc and damage. They kill people, and themselves. They are self-centered egomaniacs. They think the world revolves around them, and when they don't get what they want they throw temper tantrums. they are immature, and emotionaly crippled. And they all drink like fish to not feel the severe pain that comes from being like that.

Point three:
There is NO AA God. If the desire to stop drinking were removed, you would drink. That is directly counter to the AA message. It is NOT a religion at all in any way. Why won't the Christian God do any of that? Ask the hundreds of thousands of Christians in AA about that. Bill Wilson was a christian, so was Dr. Bob, and Ebby, and most of the first bunch of people. They were all going to the Oxford group, a Christian fundamentalist group. They broke from them in the late 30's because of the differences in belief in God, or whatever. I don't quite understand this statement, "I can assure you that I find it quite disrespectful to my own beliefs to tell me that a higher power that can do such things could be called anything other than God." If you are an Atheist, why would what a theist calls a power greater than himself disrespect you? How exactly did Bill "inflict" his views on Atheists? By the way, the word god is not a pronoun it is a noun.

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There are no such things as 'AA dogma', or 'AA therapists'. It is a program of spiritual fitness, or a set of tools to use as one wishes-- nothing more. And it is not the only one--this is even explained in the 'Big Book'.

Any one who calls themselves 'AA therapists' or tries to 'preach dogma' is lying, or doesn't know enough about the 12 steps to be sponsoring, etc.

AA works if you work it. It won't if you don't

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glad you like AA

i read the orange papers and agree with most of it

i found half of AA members to be the biggest kooks and psychos i ever met

whatever works for you, i guess it's better than death

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The 12 step programme works for me today.

After 50 years of eating addictively I have not done so for most of the last three years.

I am happy to go to meetings of Overeaters Anonymous and Open meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous because right now they help me not to use substances or behaviours to change my feelings.

That feels good as does being about 140 pounds lighter than I did in 2005. So as I am willing to go to meetings, that is good enough for me. I am sorry if others still suffer with addiction who did not find what they needed from the 12 step programs and wish well,those who do not need a 12 step program to be happy joyous and free from addiction.

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[deleted]

Here's an interesting read.

http://www.geocities.com/agent.green/

I don't understand why some go so far out of their way to dishonestly discredit something. Is it iconoclasm for the sake of iconoclasm? Certainly there are more beneficial hobbies.

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