MovieChat Forums > The Karate Kid Part III (1989) Discussion > The match-up between Mike Barnes and Dan...

The match-up between Mike Barnes and Daniel LaRusso


It has often been claimed that it's quite surprising how Daniel LaRusso was able to prevail over Chozen and was generally competitive against him whenever they faced each other in Japan, but had an extremely hard time handling Mike Barnes. While I agree that at a first glance it doesn't make sense how Daniel is so convincingly defeated by Mike during their first two encounters, I actually did find this aspect of the story to be realistic.

I play racquet sports such as tennis and table tennis (which do have certain similarities to karate when it comes to the need to display great reflexes, hand-eye coordination, and quick thinking). I have personally experienced how you can win relatively easily against a certain player and the same opponent who has a losing record against you is able to gain the upper hand over another competitor who you stand almost no chance against. It's simply a matter of how different playing styles match against each other, unless of course the gulf when it comes to one's grasp of the fundamentals of the sport is way too wide.

Even if Barnes had retained his perfect record against LaRusso, it's not out of the question that he could have suffered a defeat against Chozen.

Of course Barnes' confidence in his own abilities and him being able to successfully intimidate LaRusso from the very beginning also set the course.

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I see what you are saying, but the problem I have with it is Daniel is afraid of Barnes, not that Barnes betters him.

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True, but Daniel was still willing to fight him (though arguably only when his protective instinct kicked in after Barnes showed that he was not averse to going after Jessica) and I somehow got the impression that LaRusso was not that scared of him until he had to face him in the tournament, more like he was tired of fighting and wasn't that motivated to further prove himself as a karate practitioner, thus regarding Barnes as a pest and an inconvenience rather than a huge threat.

Also, it's possible that Barnes simply had a certain aura about him that from Daniel's standpoint made him appear more menacing than Chozen and Johnny. As for myself, I don't actually consider Barnes to be less skillful than Chozen and in some respects he is probably the most impressive of Daniel's opponents, though I would have been the most concerned (and admittedly fearful) if I had to face the Japanese guy, especially given the high likelihood of weapons being used. Chozen is much higher on the intimidation scale from my perspective.



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Agreed

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You asked me who I thought would win in this scenario, not how. But let's do this for shits and giggles anyway.
I would guess that we would see some move taught by Miyagi (think Crane kick in first movie. Drum technique in second and Kata to relax in third) which would ultimately help Daniel win
I'm beginning to wonder if you have even watched these movies!!




It doesn’t seem possible. Your detachment from reality is, in its own way, quite fascinating. Barnes would destroy Daniel within less than a minute. His skill level and athleticism were light years ahead. He was in perhaps the top 100 percentile for physical fitness, whereas Daniel was struggling to breathe after a short jog with a girl.

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You see here is where your argument falls flat.
Barnes isn't a real person
Daniel isn't a real person.
It isn't a documentary.
Despite what you may believe about Barnes (ahem) ability, the script writer(s) would have Daniel win. They do in fact have him win in KK3.
Your detachment from reality here is laid bare for anyone and everyone to see. And no, it isn't fascinating, it's sad, truly sad.

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Theorists suggest the studio may have re-edited Avildsen’s cut to have Daniel win in the end. In Kamen’s original vision, Daniel was to be punished and humiliated for his arrogance.

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Theorists? You mean you!
Stop
You are doing yourself no favours here

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Similar to the Sopranos writers gradually making Tony more despicable, there’s storytelling subversion at work in the KK trilogy. If you rewatch Daniel’s meltdown after the Downstairs riot, the filmmakers are openly taunting the audience into hating the “hero”. As he berates the hospital receptionist and cries to Miyagi, it’s just impossible to feel anything but contempt. His personal failures are made all the more glaring when compared with the business acumen of Silver, the physical prowess of Barnes and the military heroism of Kreese.

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Lol
What a complete wanker you are.

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Kamen emphasizes the Kai big three’s excellence throughout the film as if to highlight Daniel’s pathetic nature. The lucrative Dynatox Industries makes a mockery of the failing Mr Miyagi’s Little Trees, Kreese’s heroic exploits in Nam stand in contrast to Daniel’s frequent cowardice, and Barnes’s prowess on the mat exposes LaRusso as a bumbling paper champion. Even Mamoa, the Tahitian beauty, displays more sex appeal in a few seconds than Jessica does throughout her entire arc.

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Something, something, something.
Yadda, yadda, yadda.
Didn't get past the first 3 words because I knew it would be more bullshit.

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You lack the critical thinking skills to see the film for what it really is. Like Daniel, you naively takes things at face value without appreciating the deeper reality.

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You lack the ability to join the real world, hence your ridiculous twaddle on these boards.

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I’m not the one who fled the boards in cowardice after the season four trailer came out.

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Except I haven't fled the boards have I? I'm still here.
Everything you say is simply fantasy isn't it? You have a track record in claiming things that simply don't stand up. The biggest being that a trial was held and I was incarcerated then executed!
You are a troll, a keyboard bully hiding behind anonymity. You have got no game and no gang to back up your bullshit. The old Kai from IMDb must be embarrassed knowing you are their representation on here. No wonder romefan123 never made it over here.

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VOICES
Fresh fish...fresh fish...fresh
fish...fresh fish...

WEARS
I WANNA GO HOME! I WANT MY MOTHER.'

VOICE (O.S.)
I had your mother! She wasn't that
great!

The lights bump on. GUARDS pour in, led by Hadley himself.

HADLEY
What the Christ is this happy shit?

VOICE (O.S.)
He took the Lord's name in vain!
I'm tellin' the warden!

HADLEY
(to the unseen wit)
You'll be tellin' him with my baton
up your ass!

Hadley arrives at Wears’s cell, bellowing through the bars:

HADLEY
What's your malfunction you fat
fuckin' barrel of monkey-spunk?

WEARS
PLEASE! THIS AIN'T RIGHT! I AIN'T SUPPOSED TO BE HERE!


Wears keeps blubbering and wailing. Total freak-out. Hadley draws his baton, gestures to his men. Open it. A GUARD unlocks the cell. Hadley pulls Wears out and starts beating him with the baton, brutally raining blows. Wears falls, tries to crawl.

The place goes dead silent. All we hear now is the dull THWACK-THWACK-THWACK of the baton. Wears passes out. Hadley gets in a few more licks and finally stops.

HADLEY
Get this tub of shit down to the
infirmary.
(peers around)
If I hear so much as a mouse fart
in here the rest of the night, by
God and Sonny Jesus, you'll all
visit the infirmary. Every last
motherfucker here.

The guards wrestle Wears onto a stretcher and carry him off. FOOTSTEPS echo away. Lights off. Darkness again. Silence.

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I rest my case.

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I Even if Barnes had retained his perfect record against LaRusso, it's not out of the question that he could have suffered a defeat against Chozen [who Daniel defeated]..


The best real fighters in the world will always say there's always someone better, even if that person lost to the person you beat. You're right, it's usually a function of style matchups.

Now, in sports where you don't play against your opponent, but actually play against the venue such as golf or bowling, then your competitor doesn't matter unless there's an issue of confidence.

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Very well put! Home advantage can be a major factor as well, depending on the sport, in addition to the stakes involved (i.e. whether the match is considered a 'must win' or a 'dead rubber'). There are almost always bogey opponents you are averse to facing in individual sports, even if in theory you should be vastly better than they are.



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I played sports in school, and several coaches lamented the fact I wasn't more gifted. I mean, I played well enough, but certainly not pro level. But the biggest difference with me in athletics is that I always played better in the big games which is what coaches love. I'm not competitive by nature, and it's difficult for me to screw together 30 consecutive seconds of competitive fight over a silly game, but always managed to do so when needed.

There were guys who had "game faces", but I wasn't one of them. My friends used to wonder how I was always so calm during stressful games, and I'd laugh and say pretty much that it is only a game. Tomorrow I'll be taking a test or something far more important. If we lost, it wouldn't ruin my day, my week, my year, or my life. There were guys on my teams that would live and die with a win or loss, and that's why I think they got "tight" during big spots.

So I agree that even playing venue sports, there are athletes that don't match up against others for a variety of intangibles.

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It's a very valuable quality to have and I guess that some of your coaches referred to you as an athlete who regularly put in clutch performances! I am not the calmest guy when playing racquet sports and have lost a number of games during tournaments due to not being able to keep my temper in check. However, I often manage to find another gear when facing an opponent in a final, especially if I am confident that his style of play suits mine. I think that the unfortunate situation with the current COVID-19 pandemic has imbued me with a greater humility and encouraged me to learn to set my priorities straight. It's good to be competitive and one should always strive to be the best out of respect for one's coaches, the opponents, and oneself, but it should never become a matter of life and death.



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Both Daniel and Chozen are trained in Miyagi-Do Karate. Therefore they are actually quite evenly matched. They know the counters to each other's moves. This is why the crane kick did not work on Chozen. He probably took countless crane kicks to the face by Sato until he could defend the move on a consistent basis. Barne's style is different and since he only represented Cobra Kai, his style of Karate was unfamiliar to Daniel.

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It had nothing to do with familiarity. It was about Daniels fear of Barnes. Once he conquered that he conquered Barnes.

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So you believe that Daniel could have gone an extra round with Barnes after that lucky flip and still won? I mean after-all, he's not afraid of Barnes anymore so it shouldn't be a problem for him right?

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Yes.

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Yes? LOL

Now the whole world knows you're intellectually dishonest.... and you have my pity.

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He beat Chozen, so how is it intellectually dishonest to believe he would beat Barnes?
Oh that's right, it isn't.

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If it's not intellectual dishonesty, it's a pitiable delusion.

Daniel nearly passed out after a light jog with Jessica and yet you believe he can beat nationally recognized karate's bad boy?

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Pitiable delusion? That's rich coming from someone who BELIEVES they put me on trial and had me executed. Pure gold!

You are talking earlier in the movie. Daniel went on to train with the QuickSilver method, so even you should recognise that his fitness will have improved.
As for Karate's bad boy, that title is bestowed on him because he flouts the rules and nothing more.

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Daniel went on to train with the QuickSilver method, so even you should recognise that his fitness will have improved.

But Daniel rejected the method and you yourself claimed quicksilver is useless in a tournament.

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But he still would have gained fitness from it. And yes, it is useless with regards the fighting methods for a tournament.

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But he still would have gained fitness from it. And yes, it is useless with regards the fighting methods for a tournament.

You're saying here that Daniel could beat Barnes in the tournament because he learned quicksilver and that quicksilver doesn't work in tournament. You contradicted yourself in the same sentence.

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No. You said he was unfit as is evidenced after the run with Jessica earlier in the movie. I said Daniel would have gained fitness training with Silver. There is no where in my posts that says he beat him because of QuickSilver. Now you are being disingenuous.

He beat Barnes because he no longer feared him and was able to do the Karate he had learned instead of freezing.

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Judging by the training montage (perhaps the least motivational in all of cinema), Daniel did little to prepare for the tournament beyond Miyagi’s outdated kata routine. While Barnes is shown in a variety of drills under the supervision of Kreese and Silver, Daniel approaches the tournament as though prepping for a dance recital. He wouldn’t have advanced beyond the early rounds had it not been for the rule change. The contrivance was probably added when the writers saw Macchio’s flaccid condition and questioned whether it would be plausible for him to beat several opponents in a row.
As Snake correctly pointed out, he was hallucinating by the end of the fight, accidentally pulling off a fluke move while lost in a daze. It was comparable to when Dock Ellis pitched a no-hitter on LSD.

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He won.

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Couldn't have said it better.

Let's not forget that even if Daniel HAD flipped Barnes legit, Barnes would have gotten up and had his foot on Daniel's throat in 2 seconds (like he did in the garden).

Daniel was saved by the buzzer going off and the match ending.

WA actually believes that had the fight continued past sudden death Daniel would have beaten Barnes.. priceless!

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Let's not forget that even if Daniel HAD flipped Barnes legit, Barnes would have gotten up and had his foot on Daniels throat in 2 seconds (like he did in the garden).

But he didn't did he?

Daniel was saved by the buzzer going off and the match ending.

What after he scored the winning point? The match ended because he won. If you mean before sudden death, then you are still wrong because Barnes was meant to take Daniel in to sudden death.
You aren't making any sense here.

He WOULD have beaten him. Are you saying the script would have played out otherwise? Now that is priceless! And it shows how lost in fantasy you really are!

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But he didn't did he?

Because Daniel was saved by the buzzer.

You seriously think that once Daniel lost his fear he would be in "the zone" and be able to destroy Barnes like this? LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oHOv9p9dHQ

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No. He wasn't saved by the buzzer.
First buzzer. Barnes was meant to rough him up etc, then take his title in sudden death. Which is what happened, so the buzzer didn't save him.

Then he beat Barnes. So again no buzzer saved him because he'd won.

I think Daniel would have beaten him, not destroy him.

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Daniel was completely outclassed throughout the match. Barnes had ten times the skill, strength and charisma, landing dozens of blows without Daniel scoring one. Christopher Nolan said he studied their match for inspiration when filming the Bane/Batman sewer fight.

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And?
Is your fantasising meant to impress?

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I think Daniel would have beaten him, not destroy him.

How? How would he do this? His strategy of "pretend to hallucinate by doing a kata dance in the middle of a sudden death kumite to distract your opponent and steal a point" can only really be used once.

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Guess you don't pay too much attention when you watch this movie?
He at no point pretends to hallucinate. He at no point attempts to put his opponent off (the fact that this happens is down to Barnes).
He would have beaten him, and he did.

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Answer the question.

How would he beat him?

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You have seen the movies haven't you?
He would beat him the same way you see him beat him. By using Miyagi-do Karate.

Why are you so stupid?

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You consider Miyag-Do real/effective karate then?

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Non sequitur.
What I consider and what the movie portrays have nothing to do with it.
For example, you think Barnes would win but the movie says otherwise.

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You said you believed Daniel would beat Barnes if the match continued by using Miyagi-Do karate. Therefore you think that Miyagi Do is effective karate.

Just keep digging that hole you're in.

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There is no such thing as Miyagi-do karate outside the realms of these movies and the Cobra Kai Netflix show. Just as there is no such thing as QuickSilver method outside these movies and shows.

Stop digging you can't win here. Your lack of knowledge and grasp of reality betray you.
Your tacit concession is noted and seeing as we have covered everything and you have nothing new to offer other than fantasy, the matter is closed.

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There is no such thing as Miyagi-do karate outside the realms of these movies and the Cobra Kai Netflix show. Just as there is no such thing as QuickSilver method outside these movies and shows.


LOL Every time you lose an argument to logic you always retreat to "These movies are not real anyway! Screw you guys I'm going home!"

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Your argument lacks logic and seeing as you have nothing more to offer, your tacit concession is noted

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Don't just stand there and let me kick your ass.... try formulating a reasoned response.

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I tried formulated response but once you realised you were out of your depth you resorted back to fantasy and non sequiturs.
Consider yourself dismissed out of hand

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WA. If Barnes and Danielle we’re locked in a cage in a fight to the death, who do you think would win? Answer honestly.

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Are you asking if the movie had called for Daniel to be locked in a cage in a fight to the death with Barnes, who would win?
If so, then Daniel would win.

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You live in a fantasy world WA.

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I'm not the one who believes they put somebpdy on trial, convicted and carried out an execution on them.
That would be you

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That’s simply insane. Please give details about how Daniel would outmatch Barnes.

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You asked me who I thought would win in this scenario, not how. But let's do this for shits and giggles anyway.
I would guess that we would see some move taught by Miyagi (think Crane kick in first movie. Drum technique in second and Kata to relax in third) which would ultimately help Daniel win
I'm beginning to wonder if you have even watched these movies!!

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I'm not the one who believes they put somebpdy on trial, convicted and carried out an execution on them.
That would be you

Ask Sam Gerard to work on your appeals case. I'm sure he'll do it pro bono.

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Keep digging, you are only proving me right....AGAIN!

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Who do you think would win in a fight.. me or you?

Keep in mind you believe that Daniel would beat Barnes.

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Without a doubt I would knock seven shades of shit out of you, and I wouldn't even break sweat.

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LOL you're an idiot.

You destroyed the last shred of credibility you had when you wrote Daniel could beat Barnes.

Nobody takes you seriously.

You live in a delusional world where Daniel could beat Barnes and you could beat me.

I'd probably show you mercy since I wouldn't want to embarrass you in front of your students.

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Daniel does beat Barnes. Credibility intact.
You live in a delusional world where that never happened. As for you beating me, you are a keyboard warrior who spouts shit from the safety of your cellar and anonymity. If ever you grow a pair, come out of the shadows. You know where I am.
Now fuck off

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Have you ever lost a karate match WA? Be honest.

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Of course I have

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So then why are you so confident you wouldn’t also lose to me?

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Because the people who beat me at least trained in Martial Arts. You? What the fuck have you ever done? Wanker!

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How were you beaten? What moves were you unable to defend against?

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He started doing kata and then he flipped me like a pancake and scored his point.

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So even Daniel could beat you?

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Can't believe you accepted that yet question everything else. What a dumb fuck you are!

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Well how were you beaten then? Did you lie (again like you always do)?

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Do you mean did I lie about losing a fight ?
Do you believe I never lost, ever?

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I asked you how you lost. Are you lying about the manner in which you lost? If so, tell us how you REALLY lost? What moves were you unable to address?

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I won't waste my time explaining something to someone who wouldn't understand how it works in the first place

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But you were beaten? Badly? If so how do you know history won't repeat itself when we fight?

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I have never been beaten BADLY and I have never been beaten in the street. As for you, you're just a keyboard warrior with multi personality disorder. Probably never been in a fight in your life.

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When you failed to show up at Harrods, those counted as losses. You have a 0-2 record against the Kai.

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In WA's mind, when he doesn't show up for a fight it counts as a "bye" for himself and he gets to advance... just like Daniel.

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He’s such a delusional clown. On my next trip to England I’m seriously considering visiting his dojo and putting him in his place. Then he’s gonna find out what pain and fear really mean. Right in front of a thousand people.

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Just one thing.... make his knuckles bleed....

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HEy. HEY I LIKE THAT. iM GONNA USE THAT CRUISIN. hAHAHAHAHAH!

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What? You are saying you are going to come to my Dojo AGAIN? How many times are you going to roll that bullshit out? When are you coming, the 12th of never? You are a liar and a fantasist as well as a keyboard warrior. I won't hold my breath.

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You’re lucky for COVID.

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Nope. You are a liar who is now hiding behind a pandemic. A new low for you.

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Except you and I know that to be false

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When a fight is arranged it requires both parties to agree to it. I never agreed to meet you at Harrods. So no, no defeat for me.

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It’s a short drive from where you live. I was willing to travel across the Atlantic to settle this dispute once and for all and you backed out. You’re like Billy Mitchell from the King of Kong, afraid to compete in public.

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Except it isn't a short drive from where I live. Furthermore my beef was with romefan123. You just stuck your nose in trying to whiote knight him. A bit like LaRusso who you so dislike.I also told you I would not be there. Why would someone turn up to meet someone who had told them they would not be there? Only an idiot or an asshole, or both.
You've been dismissed, now off you go.

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Regarding the differences in style of karate - that's indeed a possibility. I think that Daniel (who received a bye to the final) got to watch Barnes during his tournament fights, but it seems as if Mike's opponents were absolutely no match for him, so it's unlikely that LaRusso was able to glean many insights in terms of what strategies could work against "Karate's Badboy".



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Not only that, but watching Barnes destroy the competition no doubt left Daniel intimidated and nervous. Credit where credit is due, Daniel did have guts to step on to the mat. He could have wimped out, but he didn't.

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I agree, Daniel must have secretly been hoping that an unexpectedly strong opponent on Mike's side of the draw could do him a favour and put a spanner in the works of Silver and Kreese. In any case, he tried to give it a go, maybe also realizing that the people in attendance deserve to have the chance to watch a great fight. In addition to Miyagi's words of encouragement, I think what helped LaRusso is that by going overboard in his gloating, Mike became way too complacent, expecting the last point to be a mere formality.

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Barnes wasn't Cobra Kai though. He was essentially a hired gun. Although we do see him get trained by Silver and Kreese later in the film. In the first film Daniel is able to go toe to toe with Cobra Kai. Johnny's style was also unfamiliar to Daniel, but he was able to win. In KK2 once he loses his fear of Chozen then he is able to hold his own and eventually win. In KK3 he can barely stand up to Barnes the whole time. Barnes throws Daniel around like a ragdoll. Johnny and Chozen are very good, but Barnes is just the best

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