MovieChat Forums > Henry V (1989) Discussion > Henry...Did he have good judgment?

Henry...Did he have good judgment?


..in going to war? Was he on good ground when he enmeshed the French in his war against them? Perhaps he should've stayed home by the castle fire?

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I don't think that going to war was necessarily a sound decision, and obviously it was, for the most part, a power grab. However, that isn't what's important. What's important was that Henry proved himself to be a great leader, and a great king-- possibly the greatest that England ever had. He was willing to fight alongside his men and risk his own life, like the great warrior kings of the ancient world. He was a leader who took upon himself the same danger that he put his men through, and if that was the standard we held all of our leaders to, few would hold up to Henry. He may not have made a wise choice in going to war, but when he was in the war, he proved his best qualities. He was loyal to his men, and as a result his men were loyal to him.

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He was really loyal to his men. Along with his men being loyal to him. You are right Tim. As Henry was with them. Not at home just trying to hear news on the battlefront. But was right there with his men. A great leader, a great king, and a great human being.

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Well you know thjat's the great thing with Shakespeare. He shows you one side but he also wants you to pay attention to the other. In Henry V, these's alot of "duality" in the play especially in Henry's character. Perhaps all well and good as a great leader of men but perhaps he was also pretty "Machiavellian" in his motivations and behavior towards the French. Alot of his fellow countrymen got killed because of his incessant personal goal to consolidate power. And he asked much of the Church to agree with what he was doing against the French. With all that, Henry sure was lucky at Agincourt getting out of a mess that was caused by him alone.

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Yes, of course it was sound judgement. He got the war practically for free, the church footing most of the bill. OK, it was a bit of a gamble, but he was gambling with the church's money mostly and fighting on foreign soil, so he wasn't risking much. He doubled his/his house's power - he inherited one kingdom, but passed two kingdoms on to his son.

You can't argue with success.

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Had he lived, it may have been - it was a daring stroke to remove France as a potential enemy by invading at its weakest, with the French royal family dealing with mental illness (symbolised by the tennis balls perhaps?). Agincourt was so successful, play-Henry as well as real-Henry was probably unprepared to rule quite so many lands. His sudden death exposed this, leaving England without a mature heir and no infrastructure to control a much larger kingdom (which is explored in Henry VI).

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And he asked much of the Church to agree with what he was doing against the French.


Actually, he didn't have to. Watch the opening scene again - the Archbishops are manoeuvring him into going to war with France in order to distract him from the legislation that would have stripped the Church of much of its wealth. This is pretty questionable behaviour in anyone, let alone in priests, supposedly men of peace.

As you say, there is always this duality in Shakespeare, nothing is ever black and white.

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A great human being? His actions at Rouen and behaviour towards prisoners at Agincourt suggest otherwise.

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hmm..wasn't what he did technically against the laws of chivalry?

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Probably but he had no choice. Release them and he'd be fighting them again in a few days. Not enough men to keep them prisoner or supplies to feed them.

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In war, victory is the only standard that matters. if Japan had been on the winning side, today's Japanese school textbooks would be extolling the wisdom and audacity of the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor. Instead, Japan lost the ensuing war, and today's Japanese textbooks are almost completely mute on the Pearl Harbor attack. Henry might have violated the law of chivalry, but he won his war, and that is what is remembered.

"It ain't dying I'm talking about, it's LIVING!"
Captain Augustus McCrae

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[deleted]

From what I've been taught and come to understand, the "laws of chivalry" are mostly a Hollywood invention. While there was a code of conduct, it's not like it's something that many followed, and you weren't punished for not doing so.

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It probably shortened his life. Henry died at 35 from dysentery.

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As a warrior Henry had good judgement but as a king ... I'm not so sure. It seemed to me that he betrayed some of his country men and himself, to an extent, in order to win the battle.

Movement ends, intent continues;
Intent ends, spirit continues

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..in going to war? Was he on good ground when he enmeshed the French in his war against them?


Absolutely, the very best in the world. Knowledge of the facts of the situation are crucial. Some things are touched upon in the text of the play, others are omitted. Possibly Shakespeare believe his audience would know the implications of what was being presented and never question Henry's wisdom.

After Henry IV had put down all the rebellions that occurred after he deposed Richard II the English crown was in dire financial straights. Henry needed operating revenue. People had to be paid and obligations had to be met. There was no money to do this with. This left Henry with three options:

1) Tax the peasants more.
Rewards - Meager, that bone was fairly well gnawed already.
Risks - Great, the peasants were already forced to give 10% to the church and then were taxed. Raising taxes on the peasants could have had disastrous consequences for all levels of English society.
Who bears the cost - The English people you are supposed to take care of.
Worst case scenario - Civil war, extended disorder, huge body count.

2) Confiscate secular land holdings from the church that they had acquired from English nobility through extortion, exploiting superstitions, and invented doctrine. There was a bill before the Parliament to do just this. At the time Parliaments entire duty consisted of devising ways to raise revenue for the king. It did not meet according to a schedule, rather the king assembled Parliament when he needed money.
Rewards - Great, it would have been an immense payday.
Risks - Great, Henry may have been personally excommunicated and the Church may have imposed numerous sanction against England. This would have caused a lot of alarm in the population and could get out of hand. Further the Church had the ear of just about everyone in England and was a very powerful enemy. English kings deferred to the Church. They were crowned by the Archbishop of Canterbury.
Who pays the cost - The Church, an organization you want friendly to you.
Worst case scenario - Civil war, extended disorder, huge body count.

3) Invade France
Rewards - Possibly the throne of France.
Risks - Relatively low, excluding the personal risk to Henry. (Especially when the greedy Church is paying the bills to prevent their thefts from being recovered.)
Who pays the cost - France, an entity that is already your enemy.

Next, it's not as if Henry fabricated his claim to the French throne. The claim was pressed previously but was rejected in favor of the Valois dynasty's claim. As far as I can determine the claims had about equal merit. It goes far against human nature to want to let someone else, whom you hate, keep something you feel you have an equal or better right to.

Last, and most important, when the herald tells Henry to take the tennis balls in lieu of 'certain dukedoms that you claim' he is telling him that the French crown intends to continue stealing his money. The dukedoms that Henry had demanded were undeniably Plantagenet holdings. The French had inserted Dukes of their own in place of the absentee English landlords and had diverted the revenue to themselves.

What would you do if you owned rental properties and someone else started to collect the rents? Sit by the fire?

It's a perfect morality tale; thieves got their arses kicked.

I've lived upon the edge of chance for 20 years or more...
Del Rio's Song

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