Questions about the ending.


I'm just curious, and I'd like to hear others opinions on it.
At the end,after the Baron is shot,we see him back in the theater still on stage. So, what is meant to be going on. Was the entire main of the film just him retelling the story of his adventures?
It occoured to me because all the actors in the 'false' play are played by the same actors as in the main story? Was he just free-associating?
I like to think we're seeing Sally's imaginings of his tale.




This is a far superior drink to meths. The wankers don't drink it because they can't afford it."

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That would explain it. it still felt a bit weird. Maybe he is a ghost, appearing in the theater to battle the endless reason and unimaginativity brought on by the Horatio guy. or maybe the whole film just sets out to confuse audiences.

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I haven't watched it in a while but it is a story in a story in a story.

There is so much going on and it is all so wonderful is it kind of hard to keep the base story line in mind. This is one of the few movies where I've seen it many times but you could drop me into the middle of it and I can't tell you which scene is coming next.

Doesn't matter as it is very enjoyable in it's parts and if you can keep it together you get a master message as described by the april 25 message by someone calling this Gilliam's most important film.

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The most common theme within Terry Gilliam's films is logic versus fantasy, with fantasy always triumphing. I simply feel that he wished the fantastic to permiate the logical and defy explantion. After all, explanation is logic.

Daddy Horny Michael

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I think it's meant to be symbolic, with the Turks representing something (what, I'm not sure), The Villain representing dull, conventional people, and The Baron representing the forces of imagination. Wit h the ending he's saying that if we follow our imagination (The Baron), and ignore what is convetnional and logical, we can achieves something?

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theres definetly a bit of anti-logic/rationalism in the movie. You can really see if in the king in the moon bit. The king's entire scene was a play on the mind-body problem (The whole seperate body/head thing is rather obvious as are a few well placed word plays on descartes' rationalism). We see an intelligent yet ridiculous man in head form who despite his best efforts is still slaved to the demands of his body. I took the point of it as to show how silly it is to ignore the body in prusuit of just mental achievements

As for the rest of the movie, having only seen it once I got a tad lost but the ending could be any number of things. As for philosophical themes in the ending the only immediate thing that comes to mind is eternal recurrance (its a nietzsche theme). Even with that in mind I'm not so sure there necessarily is anything being said. It may just be a crazy movie ment to entertain those who have the wisdom to suspend all disbelief for awhile.

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I riddled myself but I understand it this way that he tells the story of his adventure how he freed the country from the Turks and ended the war.
The people belive him except for the burocratic mayor to prove his point, he orders to open hte gate, and in deed the siege is over.
Now when he leaves with his horse towards the sunset, the question is did it all really happen or was it all a Muchhausen story ?

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I think that the ending is a take on the stupidity of the Age of Rationalism. Munchausen's stories where illogical bits of fantasy that obviously could not happen in such an age. The age of rationalism was bleak and filled with wars and fused directly into reality. Munchausen simply showed the people that the reality was all up to what the people were perceiving. If people logically thought a war was going on, it was going on. Munchausen invented his stories to show that sometimes an escape from reality is needed and may help alleviate pain and suffering. People took to Munchausen's fantasies, and the war ended.

Anyway, that's what I thought was going on.

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There's always been wars. The age of Rationalism gave us civil rights, a serious cutback of religious oppression, massive steps forward in science, and basically laid the groundwork for the society we have today. Imagination is good, but if its not channeled into something useful, then we should all be worried when it gets the upper hand over rationality.


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i concur with pred3000

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"did it all really happen or was it all a Muchhausen story ?"

The only true answer to that is: Yes, every word.

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I believe that it is supposed to be relative to the actual "Baron." He supposedly returned from his campaign against the Turks, in real life, with all sorts of wild stories about his adventures. In this case, the ending is just to show us how the entire movie could be percieved as true or false, but what matters is the fun in how the Baron, at the end, tells it. It is incosiquential whether his stories are real or not, because they still captivate the people's minds, even in a time of great troubles. And as said, the novel and movie both do mock the Age of Rationalism, most evidently seen in the character of Horatio Jackson. He would rather see people dull, uninterested about fantasy and worried about their prediciment, in the "real" world at the end, for the purpose of concentrating their faith and confidence towards the invading Turks. But as we see at the end, the Baron's stories have the power to turn a simple actor into an inspiring revolutionary that helps lead the people in rebellion and open the gates to their "enemy." But, who is the real enemy? Is it the "invadors" or is it rather the man who would rather supress the people's imagination and wit, for the purpose of order? And oddly enough, we find out that the Turks are gone, so strangely enough we are left unkowing whether the Baron's fantastic stories are false or not, but we DO know that Horatio's propoganda was based upon a falsified story.

So really, it is for you to decide whether the stories are real or not, but all the ending is trying to show us is this: how do we inspire, and where do we put that inspiration?

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This is a very interesting topic.
Having recently re-watched the film it is easy to get caught in that vicious circle of trying to figure out the film.
To do so with 'Munchausen' is like trying to do the same with 'Lost Highway'. It is possible to decode elements of it, but at the end of the day it is a work of fantasy.

It is important to remember that in the period in which 'Munchausen' is set theatrical productions often employed multiple actors and actresses to play different parts in the same story. Gilliam himself, from his Python days, played hundreds of different parts.
The story could be being told through Sally's eyes, as it were, but this is quite irrelevent. It would explain why Eric Idle plays two parts, along with other actors, but it is not essential in order to understand the film.

The Baron dying at the films climax is partly, as I read it, a joke about the fact that his stories continue to be told and warped even though he is dead. It is also symbolic of the fact that stories cannot die, no matter how old they are. The old Baron in the theatre can be seen as either a Ghost (the most popular choice) or a symbol of an old tall story.
In theatre (and of course film) anything is possible.

Jonathan Pryce's character does not seem to age, nor does his clothing or job, despite the passage of time being quite long. The same goes for the Sultan. It is an obvious choice to have both of these characters remain ageless seeing as their function in the film is demonstrate political corruption and powerful greed, something that never changes.

This is all pure speculation and most of Gilliam's films keep people asking questions, simply because in his eyes that is what cinema is all about. It is about suspension of disbelief and the love/hate relationship between youth and maturity.

These are just my thoughts having just re-watched the film.
I am certainly not saying that I am correct, but this is how I read it.
Gilliam, I am sure, would be pleased to know that people are still talking about it nearly twenty years later!

TS

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>>Jonathan Pryce's character does not seem to age, nor does his clothing or job, despite the passage of time being quite long. The same goes for the Sultan. It is an obvious choice to have both of these characters remain ageless seeing as their function in the film is demonstrate political corruption and powerful greed, something that never changes. >>

That is a very interesting point, but I think only the Sultan appears years earlier at the beginning of the Baron's tale (when the treasure is won). Jackson is the current prime minister (or whatever) of the "present day" city. I think.

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I didnt really understand , and maybe im not supposed to .

IF the adventures of gathering his old gang was just another story , and the part where he died at the end also was part of a story , why was the little girl with him on the adventures ?

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The ending just proves what strange things go one with the Baron. The story he tells (his adventure with Sally) seems to have actually happened, although it was only a story. He also says that that was "One of the many times [he] died", indicating that such occurances have happened before. He also seems to tell the story in such a way that indicates that he considers it true and in the past (as if it had already happened).

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Good to see this topic is still generating disscussion. I like all these ideas. Re-watching it , it seems that the point of the confusion may in fact be to make us think about it, and use our imaginations to fill in yor own theory. Makes you see why it bombed; here's a film with a blockbuster budget that's completley impregnable to the casual moviegoer.

'This is a far superior drink to meths. The wankers don't drink it because they can't afford it."

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Another take on it...

Munchausen's story is actually Gilliam's story: the fantasy of his storytelling directly affecting the reality of the people listening in the theatre.

This is, in truth, the ultimate goal of any storyteller (which Gilliam always seems to describe himself as, over 'director' or 'animator'): that your stories can change the world and shape it for the better, perception of reality (baroque) possibly being more important than 'actual' reality (Newtonian).

After all, what the hell is 'reality' anyway?

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Most of you are so busy splitting intellectual hairs on this movie, you fail to see the simplest explanation.

Several times throughout the movie, it is stated, in various ways, that logic is becoming too widespead and extreme, and it is choking out the notions of fantasy and imagination, two things that are just as much part of being human, as logic. We all have two sides to our brains, the emotional and the logical. This film is about not sacrificing one while putting the other on a pedestal.

The point of this story is, and so-to the ending, is that you SHOULDN'T WORRY about the "logic" behind how the story is told, or why. Just enjoy this fantasy movie for what it is, and be entertained, using whatever explanation you can IMAGINE. The second you try to sit down and rationalize it out, like most are doing in this thread, it just means you totally missed the point of the movie. I'm not being nasty about it, as it is an easy mistake to make, if you don't first take into consideration the overall point of the movie. Once you figure it out, the events of the movie unfold and it doesn't matter what the "right" or "wrong" explanation is.

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at the end of the movie the Baron gets shots and dies, then he gets better, read any trickster tale, Raven, Anansi, Coyote, Brier Rabbit and Brier Fox. In the end of many of these stories the character dies and then is all better for the next story.
The Baron does not need your reality, because it sucks, he has his own, and it is better

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I like your mention of our brains being both emotional and logical. It makes me think of the supposed conflict between logic and intuition, or logic and imagination. We have both, and they can work together, though many refuse to believe so.

Logic says it can't have happened that way, imagination says that's the only way it could have happened. But, like the illustration of quantum theory in Schroedinger's Cat (positing that the cat can be both alive and dead until an outside force observes it), logic and imagination can come together for a satisfying angle on the movie. An intuitive leap, using both ways of thinking, shows that it both did and didn't happen that way, and because both can be true together, the movie becomes a whole.

Yes, it takes some imagination to think of it like that, but so did early science. Both Einstein and Tesla used imagination to fuel the efforts of their intellect.

And, if movies like this stimulate the viewer's imagination (it worked for me, for one), then just think of what wonders the future may hold if only we can imagine them.

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I was confused and didn't like the ending at first; I thought it was the weakest part of the movie. But now I get it, and it's very simple: fantasy(his story) has triumphed over reality. You can analyze it much further --as you can anything in life-- but that is the essence, I think.

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Have you ever saw an interview with the man? I'd say Gilliam is just a nutcase. In the good way.

He enjoys making things with no logic what so ever, while trying to make it seem like there is a logic behind. There always is a logic behind anything, if you want to. Reasoning is a matter of choice, you can always find a reason, every question has at least one answer built in on it.

That been said, the dog is there in the end, age less, the daughter asks if it was all real, again, and the father shows the daughter the theater sign corrected as she wished.

The pretty lady in the end, who gives him kisses when he disappear in the horizon, could be the first kid who lived with him that previous adventure, the one told by the movie in which he dies, and he would be telling the second theater that he was talking about the same story to another audience when the town began to crash, and he caught a bullet, and so on.

He could be just inventing it all since the first scene, when he begins telling the story from the turk sultan, including the theater going down. That's what someone said as a story, inside a story, inside a story.

In the end it is just a story.

By the way, did you know that story and history are the same word (historia) in portuguese? It's one word used for both meanings, as there was no actual difference between the two. It's all in the past, and we may never know what's fact and what's fiction.

I loved this and almost every other piece of Terry's solo job, specially the rest of this "trilogy", Twelve Monkeys and Fisher King. Great stuff. Keep it comming TG!

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At the end of the movie, Sally asks, "It wasn't just a story, was it?" and the way Sarah Polley delivers the line gives me shivers every single time I watch this movie (at least once a month).

Sally gets it...she understands that an artist can transform his or her reality, whatever that reality is. You can knock back old age with some adventure, you can return from a restful death...hell! You can even make the enemy at the gate disappear!

It is a delightful film. I enjoy it regularly, despite of (due to?!?) its illogic. Why ask 'how' or 'why'?




"I'm not tryin' to start nothin'...I'm just sayin'..."

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I agree. There some silly impossible illogical scenes, but for me thats what makes this movie magical in every way. Either will you love it or hate it.
I LOV'D IT!

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