2 QUESTIONS- SPOILERS - Topio stin omihli (1988) Discussion

[–] BloodBang 16 years ago

don't know about your first one.
____

but IMO they both lived, but your interpretation is also something.

Personally I was just blown away by the whole last 3-4 minutes, simply AMAZING.

What a movie.

Anyway, IMO they both survived and the disappearance of the fog and
them running to the tree is a sign for hope.

But I DO loike depressing endings, so if anyone comes up with another interpretation...why not?

You think you got the right to patronize me? Think again.

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[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] TemporaryOne-1 16 years ago

She gets upset because the man is gay. He's talking (flirting) with another man

There is nothing in the film that indicates he is a homosexual. The film directly conveys that he binds himself to her because of their shared identity crisis, and because of her misery, and the film implies he would possibly be attracted to her had she been older.

He was not flirting with the man, he sold his motorcycle to the man, and he told the man he would meet him the next night for the exchange, because he needed the bike for one more day.

and she gets angry because she has feelings for him.

She does not have the feelings for him that you are implying she has.

The girl was raped earlier in the film, and becomes extremely distrustful of Orestes.

She is angry because, essentially, she knows her journey is built upon lies, she has been initiated into the world, she foresees a bleak future, she is angry that Orestes is unable to truly help them, she is angry at herself and the fruitless journey and the world.

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[–] fa7999 8 years ago

It was strongly implied that the young man and the buyer had sex. And that bar had lots of gays in it even if it is not a gay bar.

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[–] TemporaryOne-1 16 years ago

Why does the girl get angry at the young man and leave him after the strange scene at the club?

She is angry because, essentially, she knows her journey is built upon lies, she has been initiated into the world, she foresees a bleak future, she is angry that Orestes is unable to truly help them, she is angry at herself and the fruitless journey and the world.

She knew Orestes was cementing the sale of his motorcycle, which represented both a permanent separation between her and Orestes and by extension her traditional Greek roots, and a final, uninterrupted journey out of Greece into the unknown world, towards Germany, towards their father, towards the future.

It was natural for her to be angry, because of everything she and her brother endured, and everything they were about to endure; she perhaps expected Orestes to save her and her brother from the journey, or accompany them throughout the entire journey, but he instead tried to facilitate their journey, and was on the verge of finally separating from them, and since he was the only person who appeared to love them and was protecting them, she was naturally angry that he was also on the verge of "abandoning" them by facilitating their journey.

The ending...

The children are disembodied from their lives just like the Herculean hand is disembodied from its sculpture; the hand has nowhere to return (I presume, you never know...) except back into the forgotten ocean of time, which parallels the children's endless journey of seemingly no return; the hand, reaching, gripping, vaster than life itself, is exhumed from the sea, and the children, dwarfed by life itself, enter the sea, dissolve into the mist, and cross over into the kingdom of the unknown, embracing a tree; humankind dies, nature is eternal..

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[–] BwlBoy 16 years ago

The imdb score for this film is a total misrepresentation. Described in my Radio Times film guide as a Road Movie I would redefine it as a Road to Nowhere film because this is exactly where it goes. Filmed largely in drab black and grey tones which are symbolic of just how depressive a viewing experience this was. A bit of advice, if you are going to watch this with someone with suicidal tendencies then think again. It may just give them that tilt over the edge. I can only assume the screenplay was written by Gary Glitter (for those who know of him you'll understand what I am getting at). Disturbing. 4/10.

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[–] Caddy_88 15 years ago

Oh my. Did you watch it expecting something else from it? It might be leading nowhere, but why do we need a destination?

And to say it was written by Gary Glitter is just unbelieveable. I know people have their own opinions, but I can't help feeling that you have looked upon this film expecting something more conventional.

I mean, the film goes nowhere because it's about two young children wanting to get to somewhere in Germany, although they don't know where, to find a man that they do not even know, of course it's going to be difficult for them to do. Throughout this film, we are reminded that these children are young, lost and very vulnerable, which is shown in a horrific way.

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[–] CounterPaul 15 years ago

As I shield myself from taking in any pre-knowledge when ready to view a film -that would include teasers, spoilers, previews, reviews, running times, synopses - I relished the absolute uncertainty in this picture's narrative. You just did not know where it was going to end up, and could have closed at several junctures in the "journey."

("spoiler alert")

And, sadly, somehow I saw the final scene as metaphor to awakening to an afterlife; a few of the themes presented at the story's beginning reprised in a resolution of sorts.

"POWER TO THE PEOPLE WHO PUNISH BAD CINEMA!!!"

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[–] St_Anus 13 years ago

She does not have the feelings for him that you are implying she has

I wouldn't be so sure of this. There is a scene in the film where Orestes talks about the 'first time being hard', which could be implying the first time you fall in love. Angelopoulos has said in interviews that the film is meant to be a journey of identity and experience, and the kids do experience various things along the way(death, betrayal, and imo, love too).

It is definitely a plausible interpretation of their relationship. But Orestes is mostly the surrogate father figure in the film.

As for the ending, when asked if the kids died at the end or not, Angelopoulos replied '(laughs) We only hear one bullet'.

Make of that what you will.

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[–] EdgarST 12 years ago

Following the idea in St Anus' answer, when Orestes tries to teach Voula how to dance, they face each other, she can't dance and she runs away to the beach. Orestes then tells Alexandros to leave her alone because she has discovered something. Angelopoulos does not use any close-up, he does not add further dialogue and he makes no interpretation. That's just that. I felt that when they were in front of each other, and Orestes could see directly into Voulas' eyes, he realized she had "discovered something", maybe love, maybe a feeling related to her rape... Who knows! Then that feeling is sort of betrayed in the bar. Orestes had asked the buyer to keep his byke until the next day, he was not supposed to meet him in the bar. But (in a stylized composition, as others in the film) Voula sees Orestes and the man in silence, looking at each other for ages! at the bar. She and Alexandre even fall asleep before he brings the soft drinks, and then he walks away with the man.
Above any other interpretation, for me she was hurt. And Orestes says there is always a first time (for whatever, to fall in love, to be disappointed, to say goodbye, etc.)
I think Angelopoulos and his scriptwriters were a bit cruel with the character of Orestes, who is --as have been said-- a surrogate father, a big brother, a magic performer, the support of old actors, but also some kind of an angel (all of that because of Stratos Tzortzoglou's performance). For some strange reason the writers had to find something unpleasant about all characters, except the kids: the rapist is sinister-looking, the soldier is ugly, the uncle does not care, the theater performers are decadent. I would have let Orestes intact as a symbol of hope (he is the one who anticipates the final image of the tree in the mist), in a film full of symbols.
As for the end, I do not care very much... In a dramatic structure in which anything happens, the kids just cross a fantasy border (Greece and Germany are not neighboring countries). They could have been killed, and then what we see in some kind of Paradise, or they just simply arrived where they wanted to arrive, where the tree in the film clip found by Orestes was.

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[–] clockwisecarrot 12 years ago

I thought of your afterlife metaphor as well, but I believe that the boy survived the shot and the girl died or came very close to death, the mist being a representation of death. Since the boy is more clear I believe that it was the girl who got shot, and her being more obscured by the mist is meant to be Angelopoulos' way of presenting the fact that she is closer to death than the boy. Whether she meets with death, I am not sure.

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[–] rayincumbria 12 years ago

There has been a deleted message in this thread, but I can guess at something it said due to a reply...

I got the impression the club was a gay club. OK, I could be wrong, but that is what I thought we were being told. I then thought she was upset by this.. perhaps, partly because she imagined herself in love with him, maybe also because her upbringing in her society told her being gay was somehow a bad thing.

As for 'death' at the end.. Well, I too thought they were shot (killed).. but it is a powerful point that there was only one shot heard.

few visible scars

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[–] scharnbergmax-se 12 years ago

I so understood the movie that the boy who has helped the children is homosexual, and that he feels genuinely in tune with him. I do not think that he sells his motor cycle. I think he gives it. But as I can see it is not a matter of prostitution.

Because the girl was brutally raped her sexuality had awoken at a time when her mind was not ready. She felt some kind of love of the boy, and felt strong dejection when he preferred an other.

As regards the end, I am obstinate that the children were killed at the Yugoslaven border. First, I think it would be a perplexing idea of the manus writer and the director to stop the children's journey, when they had come maybe 10% of the journey. We must not forget that they were aiming for Germany, believing that their father was an immigrant worker there - an untruth their mother had told for avoiding the shame of an unmarried mother.

But note also that the light of the scene after the shooting is completely different from any other part of the movie. Extremely light, almost white. A landscape in Yugoslavia could not look that way. The children are - evidently, I should say, in the kingdom of the dead. Things have changed. Now it is the younger boy who consoles his older sister. Their word are almost the same as in the beginning scene, though now they have exchanged them: in the kingdom of the dead the boys says the lines of the girl and vice versa. "Fováme" (I'm afraid) "Mi fováme" (Don't be afraid).

Not everyone agree. I think I wrote a plot summary according to this perception, but others protested that the children did not die, and then the summary was taken away.
_________________________________________

I shall repeat my summary here:

Voula (11?) and Alexandre (much younger) are born out of wedlock. To conceal the shame their mother always stated that their father was an immigrant worker in Germany. Believing this, the children started their journey to Germany. Only once were they caught by the police, and they soon run away. Several times they met a young and friendly actor on a motorcycle. He helped them to escape from searching policemen. But another truck driver raped Voula. After this experience Voula offered herself to a young soldier in order to get money for the tickets. But he gave her some money without wanting anything in return. During the journey Voula matured enough to feel real jealousy and deep disappointment when she discovered that the actor had a partner. - When the children tried to cross the Yugoslavian border they were shot by the frontier guards. In a short epilogue in the kingdom of the dead the lines from the initial scene are repeated, although now Alexandre says what Voula said and vice versa.

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[–] scharnbergmax-se 12 years ago

Okay, I could be wrong about one thing. Maybe the theatre boy does sell his motorcycle and get money for it. But this does not gainsaid that they were a homosexual couple for the next night - and that the girl was both depressed and angry because of her feelings for him - which were not altogether chaste after her sexuality had been awoken by the rape of the driver.

I also feel that the hall looked like a gay club.

But if one of the children was shot, whether or not deadly shot, while the other was unharmed, how would you explain their dialogue (which I claim took part in the kingdom of the dead):

Sister: "I'm afraid." (fovame)
Brother: "Don't be afraid." (mi fovase)

The literal lines of a very early scene, but now with the other child saying them.

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[–] St_Anus 12 years ago

and her being more obscured by the mist is meant to be Angelopoulos' way of presenting the fact that she is closer to death than the boy.

Maybe, but if you interpret the film as a coming of age allegory, about life and experience, then the boy stepping forward could represent his increased confidence gained along the way, whereas the girl, due to her different(i.e negative) experiences, recedes into the background. The boy has assumed the dominant role.

I think this film can be read on a few levels. It's also saying something about the youth of Greece, or the youth in the modern world, perhaps. That they are rootless, and kind of floating adrift. The search for the father is the search for identity and a sense of 'belonging'. To extend the allegory here for a second, lack of father=lack of security, lack of family, lack of belonging. The traditional ways have broken down. The kids now face a world that is largely different from the previous generations. They connect with the people that meet, but it's only temporary, ephemeral. The opening scene is like a metaphor for the entire film really. The kids reach out to the train, grab hold for a second, disconnect, and are eventually left alone, in silence. It sets the pattern for the entire development of the narrative really.

Even Orestes breaks away from the troupe and becomes 'lost' in the modern world of 'decadence' and 'dislocation', for lack of a better word.

re:borders. Theo has said the border between Germany and Greece is a metaphysical one, not literal. Why is Germany the landscape in the mist? To understand this, one must at least have some understanding of modern Greek history, and it's awkward relationship with the rest of the west that continues to this very day.

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[–] PoppyTransfusion 11 years ago

I thought both died at the end. The one shot sunk the boat and they drowned.

Regarding the young man, I'm not sure what occurred during that scene. He had promosed to take the children to the railway station, presumably on his bike, and perhaps Voula thought he was no longer going to do this when the would-be buyer of the bike was at the club/bar.

I thought the choice of music associated with Orestes unusual in terms of the music in the rest of the film; in the scene were he asks Voula to dance and then at the club/bar. His name suggests a link to ancient Greece but his choice of music is decidely modern and westward-looking.

Interesting film.

Away with the manners of withered virgins

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[–] fa7999 8 years ago

She was disappointed to find out that the young man might be gay as she had a crush on him.

This is a wonderful film but also so sad and depressing. I really respect Theo as an artist but his films are so downbeat. It is so difficult for me to recover quickly after watching him films.

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