What exactly is Leviathan? - Hellbound: Hellraiser II (1988) Discussion

[–] HellboundHero 10 years ago

It's the god of "flesh, hunger, and desire" just like Julia said. I think they wanted Leviathan to be something unconventional and mysterious, like the monolith from 2001: A Space Odyssey, and they also wanted to tie it in to the box, so that it's like saying that Hell and the cenobites are ruled by the box.

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[–] Little_Korean 10 years ago

As far as the Cenobites are concerned, God.

The music-score highlighted this, according to the trivia section:

The horn sound that is continually made by Leviathan is Morse code for "God".

A rather cr@p God at that, but there you are.

When darkness overcomes the heart, Lil' Slugger appears...

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[–] HellboundHero 10 years ago

I think any attempt at a giant creature with horns or tentacles would have fallen flat. Making Leviathan seemingly a mechanism rather than something resembling a living thing was more original and mysterious.

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[–] Little_Korean 10 years ago

It's hard to relate to a big floating mechanical thing, though. It's not nearly as interesting or as threatening as the likes of Pinhead or Channard, and they're supposed to be its minions.

I can see what they were going for when they made Leviathan but it just didnt work for me. Even the name is off. You use a name like that, you're thinking of a huge serpent or dragon or the like, not an evil Christmas tree ornament.

When darkness overcomes the heart, Lil' Slugger appears...

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[–] HellboundHero 10 years ago

To me, Leviathan actually is interesting and threatening. The cenobites are relatable because they were once human and still somewhat resemble us, but Leviathan is totally inhuman and not comparable to any living thing on Earth. I guess we should just agree to disagree. I know Hellraiser II's interpretation of Hell and its ruler divided viewers. Some see Leviathan and the Labyrinth as imaginative and unique, others look at it and say "That's it? A boring maze and a big diamond?".

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[–] Herreken 10 years ago

Agreed. Leviathan is a completely alien entity to humans. It doesn't need to be anthropomorphic.

DISPLAY thy breasts, my Julia!

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[–] dockta_doom 10 years ago

I have to agree on both counts. I thought the incarnation of Hell
And Leviathan were quite interesting, but the name Leviathan
was off. Anyone who knows about the meaning of the word was
probably like huh?

Your sufering will be legendary, even in Hell...

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[–] HellboundHero 10 years ago

I think earlier incarnations in the script may have more closely resembled the Biblical Leviathan, but the tentacled creature eventually became a giant spinning puzzle box in diamond form and the name stuck.

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[–] bullett-time 10 years ago

the tentacles were there. the doc was stuck onto one for example. i thought that leviathan was terrifying as beep.

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[–] HellboundHero 10 years ago

Yeah I know about the tentacles, but Leviathan was originally planned to be a sort of Cthulhu-like creature rather than a giant diamond.

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[–] Kaliyugaforkix 10 years ago

I have to agree with the 2001 suggestion, its like the monolith, its beyond human conception and can only be envisioned as a huge geometric shape. I find that more creepy and along with the labyrinth is one of the reasons this movie sticks in my mind so much- its style, low rent or not. Too bad the rest of the series doesn't measure up to the original two, there are so many places they could've taken it

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[–] TheButlerDidItYes 10 years ago

Leviathan is called a god. Perhaps it literally is a god. Or perhaps it's a completely alien form of life that inhabits another dimension. Perhaps it's a scientist and it is studying humans and their ideas of pleasure and pain. Maybe Leviathan has the time to run this eternal experiment because its race is immortal. It reminds me of the gods of H.P. Lovecraft's stories.

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[–] TheButlerDidItYes 10 years ago

Also, I think Leviathan is a name for the devil or for one of his demonic agents in some old Christian tales. In the Old Testament Leviathan is a great sea monster that men feared but that God was completely in control of. I doubt these movies' mythology have anything to do with the Bible though but that may be where the name came from. Perhaps Leviathan is just a name that humans that were aware of the being gave to it because people used to be familiar with the Bible and its real name is something unpronounceable or incomprehensible by humans. In the same way I suspect humans gave the names "Heaven" and "Hell" to this place of pleasure and pain because there was nothing else to compare it too. In reality though I doubt the place has anything to do with the Bible or religion.

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[–] ADz-83 10 years ago

In reality though I doubt the place has anything to do with the Bible or religion.

In reality? Lmao! The Bible/Religion are as much fictional as this movie is.

...btw I know what you mean but just thought the statement sounded absurd.

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[–] dumakaa 10 years ago

Ok there Mr. Technical... What he means is that in reality the Bible and religion are things that actually exist regardless of the contents within them. In reality, the box nor the Cenobites actually exist because this is just a movie. So, your misguiding attempt to attack religion in this context is what actually is absurd. Regardless of what you may think of the contents of the Bible or religion itself, these are tangible things that can be studied in reality. However, one cannot go to Hell and talk to some Cenobites because they don't really exist.

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[–] ADz-83 10 years ago

Prove they don't exist!?

The books/bible etc are pieces of fiction, same as the movie is. "in reality" the bible is a book and this movie is a movie, same difference.

The fact that some people are delusional, brainwashed or uneducated enough to think it's anything more than cultural metaphors doesn't mean it's more valid than a story that is openly fiction.

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[–] dumakaa 10 years ago

Your obvious bias and overall anger is blinding you from even comprehending want I just said. The Bible is just a book. Get it? A BOOK! You can touch the book and read the book if you want. However, you cannot to into Hell and touch and talk to a Cenobite because they don't actually exist. Where in that guys post did he say the things in the Bible are real? He said in reality as in reading the book and talking about it context, not that the Bible is reality because it obviously isn't. You wouldn't happen to be the Angry-Atheist would you? Geez, talk about taking things out of context...

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[–] ADz-83 10 years ago

Your logic is ridiculous. The movie is a MOVIE! You can touch a movie and watch it if you want, same as you can touch a book and read it. Arguing "reality" in this context, especially about the reality of Bible is absurd since the characters in a movie are just as "real" or non-existent as much as Bible. Get over it!

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[–] dumakaa 10 years ago

You didn't answer my question. Where in his post did he say the content in the Bible is real? Also, why the hell are you so angry, it's not even that serious.

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[–] ADz-83 10 years ago

Firstly, how does anything I have said show even the remotest of "anger"? Somebody disagreeing with a comment does not infer anger so please do not try and make out I am angry because it will not work.

If it wasn't "that serious" why did you feel the need to reply to me? I'll answer that, because you disagreed and wanted to reply, same as me. Does that make you angry?

With regards to what he said, He said "in reality", Look up the definition.

The Bible may exist but so does the MOVIE so your logic/argument about story of Cenobites not being real is irrelevant because it's the comparison between the mediums the story's are portrayed thats in question.

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[–] dumakaa 10 years ago

He said "in reality" which could be used in various forms to complete a sentence. That statement alone does in no way, shape, or form imply that he means the the Bible's contents is based on reality. I could say, "In reality, Big Foot could eat ten people at once but he only eats five in this movie" That doesn't mean that I actually believe Big Foot is real. The only thing that has happened here is that you took his comments out of context and warped them to fit an argument that he never had any intention of starting.

I can only surmise that you took it that way based on some past events in your life where the Bible has been shoved down your throat and now you go around looking for arguments and any reason you can find to bash the Bible by saying its not real and calling anyone who believes in religion brainwashed or uneducated. I don't believe anything in the Bible myself but I also don't go around twisting peoples words to bash someones beliefs. Also, the only reason I asked why your so angry is because of the way you are replying by saying "Get over it!" and "Prove they don't exist!?" and taking it personally by calling people uneducated just because they choose to believe in a book of fantasy.

If your basing your whole argument on the fact that he said "in reality" then all you're doing is stretching the meaning of his statement just to fit your own point of view, which in your mind gives you the right to argue against something that he never even meant in the first place.

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[–] ADz-83 10 years ago

If you said "In reality, Big Foot could eat ten people at once but he only eats five in this movie" of course that would infer that you belive Bigboot was real, otherwise what would you be basing your opinion on when you clearly said you was referring to BF in "reality".

Your summary of having a book shoved down my throat is incorrect. I was simply reading the comments on the film and came across his which I found amusingly silly so I decided I wanted to reply. By your logic I could summarize that because you replied to me saying the Cenobites are not real that you have had this movie shoved down your throat.

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[–] dumakaa 10 years ago

Cenobites are not real that you have had this movie shoved down your throat.

No because I wouldn't get overly upset and call someones remarks absurd just because they might think Cenobites are real. Regarding the BF reference, I wouldn't actually be basing it on reality, I'd be basing on the story or fictional reality that surrounds the tales of BF just as he did when talking about the Bible. There is a difference between someone saying, "In reality" (which could be any reality, fictional or otherwise) as opposed to saying, "In real life" (Real life, our real physical plane of existence) In the context of his entire post it was nowhere implied that he thinks the Bible contents are based on real life events. You took one little sentence and came to the conclusion yourself.

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[–] chilone 9 years ago

and taking it personally by calling people uneducated just because they choose to believe in a book of fantasy.

You're just as bad, stating your OPINION as if were fact!! There is NO WAY that you can KNOW and/or irrefutably state that the Bible is a book of fantasy. Hypocrite.

I don't love her.. She kicked me in the face!!

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[–] ADz-83 9 years ago

Yes I can!

I state it because common sense and Science dictate that all the "events" it says happened are complete fantasy and myth. These are story's, nothing more. It is not a historical document, It's a book of fables written by people who didn't even understand what the sun was.

Can you offer any "evidence" that it's all real? That we had talking Snakes that a guy called Jesus exited who returned from the grave etc? No you can't because your stories are just re-used themes and plagiarized from other religions that long existed before your fantasy/myth.

The Bible is as much evidence that God exists as a Comic books is as much evidence as Batman exists.

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[–] chilone 9 years ago

Thank you for summing up atheists!! Well done :)

I don't love her.. She kicked me in the face!!

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[–] chilone 9 years ago

In reality? Lmao! The Bible/Religion are as much fictional as this movie is.

Is this a fact or your opinion? If it is a fact, please site your source.

I don't love her.. She kicked me in the face!!

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[–] ADz-83 9 years ago

Are you insane?

Common sense dictates that it's fiction!

Are you trying to assert that there were talking Snakes? I could list and endless amount of reasons why the Bible is pure fiction and has no historical accuracy or place in a modern society.

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[–] chilone 9 years ago

That's not a source. That's an opinion and an erroneous one in that you postulate that "common sense" fits your definition. More people in this world have the "common sense" to believe in God than don't so you're the insane one by your own definition.

As a funny side note: Someone that would believe that something/everything can be created out of absolutely nothing has a problem with talking snakes? Lol!!

I don't love her.. She kicked me in the face!!

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[–] ADz-83 9 years ago

Lmao, that just proves how ignorant you are. Thank you , it saved me some time and effort.

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[–] chilone 9 years ago

Excellent rebuttal lol. You know in your heart of hearts that God is real and that's ok. Acknowledging that there can be something bigger than yourself is the first step to letting go of your pride. Good luck.

I don't love her.. She kicked me in the face!!

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[–] ADz-83 9 years ago

Obviously self-delusion is your thing so you keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better and gets your tiny mind through the day.

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[–] chilone 9 years ago

Hahahaha! You know nothing about me and my "tiny mind". Just remember: you CAN be redeemed! I will pray for you and don't bother telling me not to. I pray for non-believers all the time.

I don't love her.. She kicked me in the face!!

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[–] ADz-83 9 years ago

That's fine, you "pray" for me and I'll "think" for you! ;)

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[–] chilone 9 years ago

You need the prayer. I think just fine.... Better than you actually (obviously). :)

I don't love her.. She kicked me in the face!!

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[–] ADz-83 9 years ago

Yep, you keep telling yourself that and continue to live in your little bubble of ignorance.

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[–] chilone 9 years ago

Right back at you.

I don't love her.. She kicked me in the face!!

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[–] Irie_bytheSea 9 years ago

Whether you believe or not, religion (apparently, as with all conversations like this, Christianity is the target) is based on the supernatural, so the term "common sense" does not apply. If there is a God, and I believe there is, nothing you can say can prove there is not. A supernatural being would not follow natural laws. Although the Bible does indeed have a lot of historical accuracy in it, as is proven constantly by archaeologists, if you are determined to deny it, the supernatural occurrences are a good way to do it. Hyperbole, such as a talking "snake," is a good way to deny it as well, although it's amazing how many of the same people will understand the use of symbols in other texts.

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[–] largo2032 9 years ago

Here is my take on Levithan. The 'Hell' seen in the films is the 'Hell' from the biblical tales. (From Clive Barker's The Scarlet Gospels). In the Novel. Satan is sleeping/ dead in a cathedral of his own making. (Dead like Dracula not dead or alive but in a deathless sleep.) I assume that with Satan asleep, He put Hell on 'auto pilot' & Levithan is that creature running the show in his place. The novel only gives a passing mention to Levithan thats it. No big reveal. Also remember in Hellraiser: Bloodline when Pinhead tells Angelique that 'Hell is more structured since your time Princess.' I guess that Levithan during this time remade Hell in his own image.

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[–] HellboundHero 9 years ago

That's kind of the impression Bloodline gave me(especially the script), that the creation of the box changed Hell from what you read about in the Bible to what you see in Hellraiser II. It went from Latin incantations, pentagrams, and pure demons like Angelique to mechanical boxes and humans remade with hooks and pins into makeshift demons. Science replaced magic, to paraphrase De L'isle in the script.

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[–] 9 years ago

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