So, the village was innocent, or was it not?
Discuss.
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MovieChat Forums > La chiesa (1989) Discussion > So, the village was innocent, or was it ...
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I say the village was innocent because if the people were demon possessed, they would have attacked the knights, not wait to be slaughtered. One of the characters also said that the knights were notoriously cruel, so they would have killed for any reason.
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It's clearly referencing apocalyptic imagery: the demon that looks like a goat seems to be an attempt to make this creature from the book of Revelation:
Revelation 5:6 - And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
So it's not a goat, it's a lamb with horns, and it represents the wrath of God. It doesn't seem to make sense that God would send demons to attack people who weren't actually responsible hundreds of years later (even the Old Testament God tends to target the people who've angered him).
My interpretation of this is that either the Templars and the church have somehow created the demons they sought to destroy through their own evil or the alchemist somehow created the demons with his alchemy to take revenge on the church. (In the second case, the zombie hand that pulls a knight into the hole can easily be explained as just an injured human who happened to still be alive). share
Actually, this quote from Zechariah
Zechariah 3:9 - See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,' says the LORD Almighty, 'and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.
Does seem to support the idea that their some sort of punishment for sin. Maybe God is on the side of that crazy old priest who wanted to unleash the demons on the city to punish them. share
The Witch Trials of both England and New England were perpetrated by protestants, not the RCC.
shareThe witch trials in France (Valais and Loudon, for example) and other parts of Europe were instigated by Catholics, however - a more relevant point of reference for this film, being an Italian picture.
'What does it matter what you say about people?'
Touch of Evil (Orson Welles, 1958).
"The Witch Trials of both England and New England were perpetrated by protestants, not the RCC."
On the other hand, those in France (Valais and Loudon, for example) and other parts of Europe were instigated by Catholics - and are arguably a better reference point in discussion of this film, being an Italian picture.
'What does it matter what you say about people?'
Touch of Evil (Orson Welles, 1958).
On the other hand, those in France (Valais and Loudon, for example) and other parts of Europe were instigated by Catholics
Okay. But besides as an attempt at the "other side does it too" argument, I don't see the relevance to my comment. It was a response to the guy who wrote that the RCC was responsible for the witch trials in New England and in "Old Europe".
The first claim is patently false,the RCC had absolutely nothing to do with it. Those were Protestants, Calvinistic Puritans.
The second is only partially true. During the Witch Hysteria of the early modern period, Protestants were just as guilty as Catholics on that regard,if not more.
Take the British Isles, for example. During those 300 years or so, Protestant (Anglican) England had several. Presbyterian (Calvinist) Scotland was the worst. On the other hand, Catholic Ireland had 3 trials, involving 10 accused in total. Only one accused, in the 1600's, was sentenced to death. The 3rd and last trial was held in the 1700's. It was the only mass witchcraft trial held in Ireland. The 8 accused were sentenced to the stocks and 1 year imprisonment. What is curious about this trial is that it happened in the North, where Scottish and English settlers had brought with them their witch hysteria. The accuser was of Scottish origin... The same goes for Scandinavia and Northern Europe which were affected by the witch hysteria were Protestant areas.
...and are arguably a better reference point in discussion of this film, being an Italian picture.
The fact that is an Italian production is irrelevant since the story takes place in Germany.
Anyway, France is not a good point of reference for Italy, if this film had been about Italy. The Italian states, as other homogeneous Catholic nations like Spain, and the aforementioned Ireland, were mostly unaffected by the witch hysteria. The stance on witchcraft was that it was superstitious nonsense and accusations of witchcraft were mostly not seen as credible.
Now, if you're motivated to make a point about how the Catholics also got on the witch-hunting craze, you would've been better served pointing fingers at the religiously fragmented Holy Roman Empire, particularly the German states. Those areas witnessed the worst witch trials in Europe. Some of the largest conducted by the Catholic civil and ecclesiastical authorities, often were one in the same, such as those entities (principalities)ruled by Prince-Bishops. But one also has to put it in the context of a religiously divided population, with Protestants and Catholics living side by side. Not surprisingly, there was a huge surge during the 30 Years War. So it doesn't come as a surprise that in Catholic areas the "witches" happened to be Protestant, while in Protestant areas the "witches" were Catholics.
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No finger pointing or anything of the kind was intended, other than to suggest that the persecution of 'witches' wasn't limited to England or New England and certainly isn't a characteristic of an individual faith or belief system. It's sadly rampant, in one form or another, in most - or perhaps all - ideologies. You certainly won't get any argument from me about Protestants being as vehement as Catholics, or especially in the case of Scotland even more aggressive, in their persecution of heretics/'witches'.
"The fact that is an Italian production is irrelevant since the story takes place in Germany"
Whilst I wouldn't argue with pretty much everything else that you said, with all due respect I can't agree with this: it's an Italian production, made (predominantly) by Italians. Regardless of where the story takes place, it's still an Italian film and part of a subgenre of Italian films about witch hunts and vengeful ghosts that includes pictures like Mario Bava's "La Maschera del demonio" or Antonio Margheriti's "I lunghi capelli della morte". It's a deeply Italian film, in a specific setting (of course) but part of an Italian subgenre and made by Italians. This is the only thing I would disagree with you about, however.
Re: my mentioning of Valais and Loudon. Italy had its own share of witch hunts/witch trials - though less 'famous' than the examples from other European countries. The Val Carmonica witch trials, or the events at Triora, aren't as well known as the events in Valais or Loudon (or New England or Pendle, Antrim, Berwick or Paisley): the notoriety of the events at Valais or Loudon was the only reason why I mentioned those specifically. I wouldn't expect to mention Val Carmonica without having to explain what happened there. In terms of specific Italian cases, the persecution of the benandanti seems most relevant to this film.
The relevance lies in the fact that the church ('la chiesa') is clearly a Catholic church, in Europe, with much of the story focusing on the fallout from the Knights Templar. The German setting seems to connect the film to Lamberto Bava's "Demoni", which this was marketed as a sequel to, and its suggestion of past/buried horrors as a metaphor for the Holocaust. Protestant witch hunts in England, as cruel as they were, are a million miles away from the thematic content of this film - as, I think, you were suggesting to the person who made that connection in this thread originally. If one wishes to see a film about Protestant witch hunts, there are more relevant examples such as "Matthew Hopkins: Witchfinder General" or "Blood on Satan's Claw". Soavi's film is a picture about Catholicism and 'witches', like Ken Russell's "The Devils" or the aforementioned Italian examples by filmmakers like Mario Bava and Antonio Margheriti.
"So it doesn't come as a surprise that in Catholic areas the "witches" happened to be Protestant, while in Protestant areas the "witches" were Catholics".
That's the rub of the whole debate, really - and the theme of the film, which represents both sides (the persecutors and the persecuted) equally ambiguously. Which I think is the answer to the question posed by the creator of this thread ;)
'What does it matter what you say about people?'
Touch of Evil (Orson Welles, 1958). share
The RCC demonised people all throughout history. Look at the witch trials of Old and New England,
It wasn't Catholics. share
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I wasn't sure about this either.
I'm thinking that there were some witches (like the girl with the cross on her foot), and maybe they called down the curse on the cathedral builders. Maybe the witches were outcasts from the village and living in that cave.
And Lotte / Peasant Girl "bore witness" to the Teutonic Knights' slaughtering and claimed not to know why they killed everyone in the village. Lotte was shown to like drinking, smoking, and hanging out in discos listening to music about going to hell, but then she helped Father Gus stop the demons. If she was demonic too, she wouldn't have done that.
The hand from the mass grave might have been a human survivor, or a possessed survivor.
There is no objective reality... and that's Sucker Punch
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Maybe not the whole village but certainly there was a satanic cult going on in that cave. A stone at the entrance marked 666? Having the inverted cross carved at the sole of your foot? Why surround yourself with these symbols during a time of religious extremism? That girl was either suicidal or satanic worshiper. Last but not least, the site was indeed hell's gate or something, otherwise nothing that happens in the film would make sense.
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