Overrated


Is it just me or is Charles Bukowski the most overrated writer ever? I used to be a serious drunk and during those lost years Bukowski was my favorite writer, I thought he was pretty brilliant. I've been sober for awhile now and I recently went back and read some of his stuff (I have most of his books) and I really hated to admit it to myself, but the writing struck me as pretty one dimensional and self indulgent. It occured to me that he'd pretty much siad all he had to say early in his writing career and basically repeated himself over and over ad nauseum. I still like some of his stuff (Ham on Rye in particular), but brilliant he isn't. I mean I used to see him as this almost heroic figure fighting the odds and all that other sh**, but now I see him as kind of a bitter a**hole who wasn't nearly as talented as he apparently thought he was. The thing is, I don't know how much of this new perspective I have can be attributed to sobriety and how much can be attributed to maturity (I got into him when I was 23 years old, I'm 32 now). I'm just wondering what anyone elses take on this is. Thanks

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I notice someone else seems a little bitter...

He's probably not the greatest writer ever, but he's one of the few to explore, at lenght, the world of the drunk.

Sure, he's not brilliant all the time. And, as is the case with most alcoholics, he didn't mature very well. But from Barfly, Hostage, and "The Bukowski Tapes" alone, you can see that the man had something going for him. He's definitely in better form when he has someone to jeer him or cheer him. And he's the patron saint of most drunks. As a former drunk, hopefully you could at least see him as a source of light for those in troubled times.

Unless you consider reveling in drunkenness to be trite and boring, at least try to look at it as a tourist. Beautiful while you visit, but you wouldn't want to live there.

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yeah i'm terrible with the bottle. i'm 25 and university started the ball rolling five years ago. but i'm intermittant with it. i can go weeks without and then sometimes i can't sober up for 7days. i have revelled in drunken abandon with music from the likes of tom waits, films like this one and georgia, authors like kerouac and bukowski. and you know all these rummies, they are all necessary.

i've recently read post office and factotum and found both a little coffee table reading. i read them both in a matter of days and will read women in a few months as it's in line behind some other works. and the books were ostensibly identical. but both were full of witticism and flowed well, but yes there seems to be little development over the6years between the books.

but that said bukowski is hugely influential and well loved by many great artistic people and his style hits a note that way as well remain consistent as it works and appeals without all the verbage that other better educated authors employ.

jean paul sartre said bukowski was one of the most important american authors of the 20th century. now he may not display the literary skills of ernest hemingway or graham green, but if you think of music, the technical proficiency of your playing doesn't mean your creative or important but something as simple as punk can change a generation's view of the genre.

his writing is deceptively simplistic but you try to mimic it with the same sense of humour and irony. not as easy as it looks. and the screenplay for barfly. just amazingly well crafted. just read the quotes thread on this site.

so love old hank, it's comforting to know they are out there

'You think the end of the world will
come at nighttime, Jim?'

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Thanks for the responses. I don't know, maybe I was a little harsh in calling him overrated, I went back the other night and read parts of Women and laughed my ass off. I will say this about Buk, I don't think I've ever found another writer whom I have ever identified with in quite the same way, like I siad I drank for quite a few years and went the whole 9 yards; jail, DUI's the whole bit and for a while I felt completely and utterly defeated by life, but at the same time I was always able to see a glimmer of hope in the worst situations and beauty in the ugliest of places. I probably have old Hank to thank for that so I guess he wasn't such an a**hole after all.

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I'll drink to that...

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Wow, well put.

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Great post. Bukowski was a helluva man! Love this film. Wish there were a few deleted scenes to be seen off the dvd....

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ramblingbanjer, you are a fiery furnace i kid you not.

a little secret. english ale is a required taste. most of us under the age of 40 drink cheap larger. that is what makes us dirty horrible gutter snipes. as a man of class and distinction i don't go for that and i love guiness, and eastern european largers, like the czech beers, the best in the world, really, beer was perfected in eastern europe centuries ago. also look into tiger beer from china, and cobra from india. very dry and crisp, cold and distinctive beers. bud is anything but a beer. let alone a king of 'em. but i know you already know that.

i drank a strawberry infused larger last night in a pub called the spaniard's arms near hampstead haeth in london, and it was like a puree with a like of hops. i loved it but only one pint, a little sickly for the intrepid boozehound.

right now i've got stickey fingers ringing out loud. guess the boozing stones have me in a tight fist, but i'll shake it off as the local is calling and i'm feeling frisky on the pool table...

try to keep a close eye on the scene, it'll take you if you let it,

draughtboy.



'with the ability to be able to do anything that he wants to do and findin' nothin'.' rumble fish

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sorry to disagree but it was gram who was obsessed with keith richards. that is well documented. gram was a middle class boy infatuated with the star power richards had and wanted to be part of that whirlwind that was the stones. i'm not getting into a talent debate about artists but you must admit the hype around the stones was unparalled (spelling) at the time, regardless of how good anyone was. and gram loved to be part of the stones circus. so much so that he was actually told by all but richards, who as you noted was a good friend to gram, to get his arse in gear and record another album instead of not turning up to gigs and letting everyone else down as his rode richards' coat tails.

richards has often shown remose that he dragged parsons towards his untimely death, but at the same time claiming gram should have known the scene. it seems gram was a fragile flower and as we all know richards was just a pickled prune of a man so addled by drugs that like iggy, they last forever. gram's constitution was alas a little more delicate and hense the overdose.

anyway, this is not fact, but i've heard it so many times from writers and journalists and family and friends off the two that i consider it to be as close to fact as one can get in the rock scene.

and about the homo thing. prob not as you say but like kerouac and other beats like cassady, iggy and bowie, i reckon things went on and many think so also, but really does it matter. when you're artistic and broadminded, sexual boundries disappear, they become absurb before gratification. so whatever. i'm not really bothered what they do between the sheets behind closed doors and underneath the gaze of their piers.

anyway, sorry for being away so long. busy week at work and glad to hear you're still online.

'with the ability to be able to do anything that he wants to do and findin' nothin'.' rumble fish

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oh yeah and i was talking about the personalities there, not the songs just before you tell me all about who influenced who, because i don't know about all that and accept you're more in tthe know that i, but as people gram was weak and put too much into keith which cost him the ultimate price.

well i'm a huge costello fan so i'll try that album you talk about by the byrds. i'm still gunning for the kristofferson album. it's a download thing you see. i could get it in the shops tomorrow but they cost too much. i really like however his work with emmylou harris. the song 'love hurts', but there is a song you prob know about called boulder to birmingham? what is this i hear it should be heard.

anyway, we always do the country western thing. maybe you'd like some ideas of what i'm listening to.

keep posted

seriously though have you heard the emmylou stufftoday? maybe as an old school you'll be unimpressed, but the song here i am seems like a harkening to her past.

anyhow if you're into modern-retro look into the album pretty in black by the raveonettes. loads of phil spector and link ray going on. serioulsyu cool but retains the nod to the fathers it draws from.

http://www.theraveonettes.com/

'with the ability to be able to do anything that he wants to do and findin' nothin'.' rumble fish

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yes of course you are correct, bowie and iggy are not beats. i know that of course i just got typing and didn't make the sentence structure convey that. bowie is too decadent to be a beat and iggy i doubt realises what the beats were.

however they are not beeps either. me thinks you too harsh.


'with the ability to be able to do anything that he wants to do and findin' nothin'.' rumble fish

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26 here, sobriety for 6 months now, and Bukowski is still a comfortable place to be. Bukowski was more or less a Beat and therefore represents the two prominent writing styles thereof: the narrative and poetry. Both turning an optimistic eye to the socially defeated. Narratives by nature are self indulgent. Bukowski is known as the Blue Collar Poet Laureate for a reason. He writes about the simple joys and annoyances of the everyday American male, including sex with woman whose reputations are not white and glowing, hangovers, and the workaday world. His work can be somewhat repetitive, but I see it as contributing to consistency of character. Bukowski is the warm, dark corner where I go to relax.

(Sorry if this seems a bit rambly, it is late . . .)

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like chinaski says in buk's screenplay parley, 'endurance is more important than truth'. bluquill01, the truth is told.

'with the ability to be able to do anything that he wants to do and findin' nothin'.' rumble fish

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thank you

'with the ability to be able to do anything that he wants to do and findin' nothin'.' rumble fish

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Man, you guys have to make every thread into musical discussions, don't you?

Bukowski's poetry was masterful with simple language. So many poets come off as pretentious, or trying to be, but I never got this from Bukowski. Personally, I like to read Bukowski's poems in moderation, as opposed to the way I drink. I think he can be repetitive, but if you read say 10 poems before going out or before settling in, it gives you a nice buzz. Perhaps his older poems if you are going out with more fire in them, and his work from the late 80's if you are staying in--his more domesticated times.

Mickey Rourke said he didn't respect Bukowski's drinking at all, saying something along the lines of "people who abuse themselves with the drink are completely undisciplined and it's a huge sign of weakness." I tend to agree with him. So I keep a balance of fitness and boozing. Bukowski wouldn't have liked me. But that's ok.

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yeah okay, drinking is a sign of weakness. but i believe weakness manifests itself as great expression if you have the talent and drive to boot. some of the greats control their greatness with booze and revel in that; some of them use it and it utterly destroys them. i guess it can feed or eat at the soul in equal measure. it's a paradox.

i'm reading bukowski's women at the moment and he sums it up in the last chapter i read last night at work:

'that's the problem with drinking, i thought, as i poured myself a drink. if something bad happens you drink in an attempt to forget; if something good happens you drink in order to celebrate; and if nothing happens you drink to make something happen.' chapter 76 - women.

sounds familiar.


'with the ability to be able to do anything that he wants to do and findin' nothin'.' rumble fish

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All true . . . but I think redundency (sic?) is part of what makes Buk's work so comfortable. Buk represented everyday life, and how redundant indeed can everyday life be. I think it gives his work continuity. Sometimes something happens, and sometimes its just another day . . . and thanks, Imaginary, for the welcome.

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As for the movie, Rourke was great in the role (a bit strange that he'd be so hard on anyone who suffers/enjoys substance abuse, since he has had a few problems of his own!!!)
As for alcohol, i prefer whiskey, i like a vast range, (but cannot abide bourbon), and guiness extra (the 7.5% stuff).
As for the writing bukowski has done, you either appreciate it or you dont, and if you dont the chances are it wanst meant for you in the first place.
Not everyone can relate to that level of HONESTY.

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Mickey seems to have a balance in his life with booze, I'm one of those types too. He's been known to go out and drink but he's also built like a bodybuilder. This is why Buk wouldn't have liked me, he wouldn't have been caught dead on a weight machine. I've been a healthy drinker for over a decade, and I also prefer the whiskey, Barclayandrew, and I appreciate the ales--Belgian, Scottish. But I'm just a weekend binger then it's back in the gym.

ramblingbanjer, you are a mean drunk.

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did anyone see Koyaanisqatsi? it is the most amazing visual document of north america. a love letter to the landscape. as a limey it makes we weep with frustration that i have yet to experience it, but as an intrepid traveler, it will happen in my 20s; definitely; now, now, now.


'that's charlie cheswick's cards'.

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best song right now... 'it's all over now baby blue' covered by van morrison and the band. dare i say better than the original. strike me down for that, but if you've heard it it's a cover that bests the original. a rare breed but look into it party peeps. now where did i leave that can of red stripe?????

also the best beers. tiger beer from china, cobra from india, anything from the czech republic, anything but budweiser king of the curb, anything but english beer (we make the best ales, not larger), and that's it. hell i don't even want to talk about it. and of course the queen of stouts the guiness. an irish champ for champs acting the champ amongst champs in the championship of all time champs.

'that's charlie cheswick's cards'.

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yes, bukowsky is overrated in the sense that everyone in this generation is reading him, and considering that hes just AVERAGE. He's just a very hyped writter, probably because all the bathroom jokes and drunken violence in his books, yet if you strip the books away from that, youll see that all in all, he writes very sappy american stories.

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yeah you're right on some of that but your conclusions are not something i'd agree with. he is constantly telling us he is an uneducated bum who happens to just write and god knows why but people read him. there is no pretenciousness. he is brutal and honest. he writes like things really happen but peppered with some giggles to help it go down.

so many authors cheat themselves with delusions of granduer. i respect buk. his style is not easy to reproduce. and a lot or truth comes without being mere truisms.

it's like saying de niro and clift aren't as gooder actors as pacino because they don'y go in for all the histrionics.

he's no james joyce but thank god for that.

'and these are the days of wine and roses'

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For the Guinness fans, try 'Guiness Extra 7.5 %', its available at all good wine and beer outlets, and is the real deal when it comes to the guinness experience.
I can only stomich three or four bottles because if i drink anymore of the delicious black fluid i get a sore head the following day.
For those who arent snobish about blended whiskey, 'Grants Family reserve' is a nice one to go for.
Single malts are overated and to be honest in many cases are not worth the asking price, believe, ive tried many of them,

Cheers all.

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papa buk saved my life, listen to johnny cash "american recordings" and have your self a quiet drink, i sure as hell will..

confessions of a man mad enough to live amongst beast

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if you don't like him anymore
would
you like to sell the books?

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it's true. hate to say, but you speak truth. kling-chin...

'with the ability to be able to do anything that he wants to do and findin' nothin'.' rumble fish

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Im personally sick of people with the whole God Damn overrated thing. If anythings truly overrated, it's always declaring stuff is overrated. Can't we do something new? Why don't we call them all witches instead.

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i dont drink or do anything at all and he is my favorite writer and probably always will be

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Bukowski wasn't simply a drunk, morons.

The person who started this topic sounds like someone who thinks he's (or she's) hot *beep* because of a few years of college drinking. Give me a break. You’re a band wagon jumper: when it's cool to drink, you do. When it's cool to have kids and buy your boss christmas cards, you do. You’re the unoriginal phony Bukowski wrote about!

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