MovieChat Forums > Star Trek: The Next Generation (1987) Discussion > I Borg

I Borg

posted 8 years ago by darkslyde
85 replies | jump to latest

Having just rewatched this for the first time in a while I simply couldn’t contain my hatred of it any longer so I felt compelled to come here and posit my ‘critical analysis’ for your consideration.

A sappy, saccharine episode that throws all rational thinking out the window. I'm truly surprised more people do not see the inherent flaws here - nonexistent suspension of disbelief, completely unrealistic command choices, and a captain that until now had been pretty good on the whole doing a massive U-turn and ruining the viewing experience.

So 'Hugh' (a name given by Geordi) is a Borg drone recovered on that old Enterprise favourite - an errand of mercy. You would have thought that captain Picard having been assimilated himself might be perhaps slightly averse to bringing a Borg aboard ship, but despite this he caves in to Crusher, who, as usual, gets her own way, flying in the face of reason. Her mawkish preoccupation with trying to save every single life (I completely agree with Hitchcoc's review of this episode, by the way) has got her, and the whole Enterprise crew, in trouble before, say, in 'The High Ground', where she insists on staying behind to treat a few civilians after a terrorist bomb detonation on a planet with plenty of doctors and non-Federation-Aligned, ending up getting kidnapped, and eventually a bomb planted on the Enterprise engine core which incidentally would have killed her son Wesley and the other 1,000 people aboard.

Anyway, after the drone is brought aboard, any military commander worth his salt would have seen this as an excellent opportunity to rid the Federation of a mortal threat; i.e., planting a virus in the drone and sending it back to the hive where it will disseminate this program, and ultimately defeat the Borg once and for all. Picard does pursue this plan to begin with but then deviates from this sensible course of action when he allows his personal feelings to influence his judgement - something he repeatedly tells everyone else not to do. Leaders have to make tough choices and if that means sacrificing one Borg drone, and consequentially and indirectly, the single, collective Borg entity, to safeguard humanity, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and that is simply what they have to do. But Picard's inexplicable change of heart faced with this golden opportunity (something which Starfleet later excoriates him for) means that the Borg live on to fight another day and may possibly come screaming through a trans-link hub near you to conquer humanity some point down the line.

The ridiculous farcical fond family farewell at the end, like sending Wesley off to Starfleet Academy, was actually very difficult to take seriously. I was actually laughing at this point; it could seriously be considered comedy if you choose to perceive it in that way. In the end the senior staff choose to essentially sacrifice all of their lives, and those of the entire Enterprise crew, since they know full well that the the Borg will come looking for them (they always collect their dead) and and will stop at nothing, possibly managing to add another notch to their assimilation count - humankind - in the process. If there's one thing that we could describe the Borg as, it's relentless. They decide for the entire human race without consulting anybody to save ONE BORG, not even Starfleet Command. Geordi practically begs him to stay at the end - 'Hugh, it’s not too late to change your mind’ - i.e., ‘please Hugh, stay, stay so we can all be assimilated - or at the very least - fight a hopeless battle against the far superior Borg technology, costing many, many lives'

So, at the denouement, they actually WAIT near a star close by the Borg landing site, just chancing it that the Borg haven’t upgraded their sensors enough to see them. (!) This was just beyond the pale. A captain’s primary responsibility is to protect the lives of those under his command and this decision was certainly a poor one that had I been there, would have shattered my faith in Captain Picard, I’m sure.
‘Solar radiation is rendering our sensors inoperable. At last known course and speed, the Borg vessel should (should!) enter the system in three minutes’. Well, cutting it a little fine, no? This might be a good time to get the heck outta there. But no, let’s patiently wait here.
Geordi to Hugh: ‘Well I guess this is it huh?’ like saying goodbye to a cherished colleague of long standing. Awful.
Oh, and even Guinan comes around to the Borg side! Guinan whose race was almost entirely destroyed by the Borg, her people assimilated, her planets destroyed. One wonders if the writers just chose to avoid the fact that the likelihood of this occurring is practically 0. You would have to develop some serious Stockholm Syndrome/ psychopathic tendencies to sympathise with the annihilators of your species.

To sum up: painfully white-bread and laughable. DS9 was infinitely better on every level. Don’t get me wrong, Next Gen had its moments, but this certainly wasn’t one of them.

Any thoughts? Was the Captain justified in what he did? Or silly?
A convoluted, overly-sentimental, nonsensical plot? Or an effective one?

[–] RubyHypatia 8 years ago

Hugh was probably really young when assimilated which is why he doesn't remember a previous life. He's meant to show that individual Borg drones are innocent victims. This makes for an interesting dilemma. To destroy your enemy, you have to kill innocents.

DS9 was okay, but not as great as TNG.

[–] caseyrook 8 years ago

Well Admiral Nechayev effectively chewed Picard's @$$ out for his actions in this episode so there is that.

I like that Picard made that particular decision. I feel like it would have been out of character for him to follow through with the original plan.

I do like this episode (because I like the few times when Picard must confront his feeling about his assimilation and I feel sorry for Hugh.

We can't blame Picard for the actions of Locutus, and we can't blame Hugh for anything he did with the Borg. They were equally innocent.

This is an episode that I enjoy but hold off on rewatching unless I'm in the right mood for it.

[–] WyldeGoose 8 years ago

I've gone over this many times, and it's indicative of the peculiar mindset of the writers and producers at the time who went with the notion that Starfleet isn't a military organization. Even so, at the very least, there would've been some sort of standing orders from the Admiralty (not to mention the Federation Council) concerning the Borg, particularly with POWs. I'm sure they're not so completely stupid as not to have some policies with regard to encountering the Borg, or finding individual drones, which would've been to secure, safeguard, and swiftly send any POWs to the nearest or specified starbase as soon as possible. At the same time, I wouldn't be surprised if they were so stupid as to not have such standing orders.

Whether they like it or not, they're in a state of war with the Borg. And the admiralty, if they value their careers, are going to take steps necessary to see to it that the UFP is protected and the Borg defeated in some way. Picard is not the one directing the war effort, the admirals do that. Picard may have had the right initial idea, in keeping with the spirit of what Starfleet's policies might be with the Borg in order to defeat them, his first duty as an officer would be to let the admiralty know of the situation, inform them of his plan, and get their feedback.

What you have in this episode is a complete breakdown of discipline, starting at the senior staff and leading all the way to Picard. I consider this just as much a slight against Riker as it is against Picard. Riker should've been on hand to instill some discipline, and to even differ with Picard as to this plan, being there to remind the Captain of any standing orders about the Borg and Borg POWs. By rights, there should've been someone to say that the plan logically shouldn't work because the Borg ought to make it their business not to let their interdependence be a weakness for some sort of invasive program, and then to remind them that the Borg do drive out individuality from their drones in order to maintain a cohesive collective.

What should've happened, instead of Admiral Necheyev chewing out Picard over it, was as soon as she got his report, to have the Enterprise report to the nearest Starbase immediately, and be on hand personally to arrest Picard and his entire senior staff (I'd even arrest the entire officer contingent, just to be sure), set the Enterprise aside to conduct a full investigation into the incident, and then reassign all personnel to other posts and then put a new crew under a new commanding officer (Captain Jellico would be an ideal candidate). Picard and his staff would have charges thrown at them for Insubordination, Collaboration with the Enemy (a POW in this case, by returning him to the Borg), and Conduct Unbecoming a Starfleet Officer. I might even throw Treason against Picard and his staff, but I'll settle for the main three charges; and if Picard and his folks are smart, they'd take a plea bargain.

[–] caseyrook 8 years ago

Picard would, and should, take an Insanity plea.

[–] cjh8504 8 years ago

Firstly, TNG is infinitely better than DS9, and I enjoy this episode. I just wish Picard would've went through with his original plan.

RIP Tony Burton. RIP George Kennedy. RIP Doris Roberts. You were wonderful in ELR.

[–] 8 years ago

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[–] 8 years ago

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[–] cjh8504 8 years ago

That was very likely my doppelganger that you responded to, User.

RIP Tony Burton. RIP George Kennedy. RIP Doris Roberts. You were wonderful in ELR.

[–] 8 years ago

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[–] revengine 8 years ago

I agree with just about everything you said concerning this particular episode. The one thing that really stood out as just weird (let's chalk it up to the writers not having a complete grasp on the Borg yet) was how the crew figured Hugh experiencing individuality again would somehow act as an infection to the Borg. This premise just does not make any sense at all.

Whether they are assimilating someone or re-assimilating, makes no difference - individuality is lost once the connection to the hive mind is established and the experiences become part of the collective. It's not going to act like some kind of contagion and wreck havoc in the collective. If that were the case, it would be happening every time they assimilated someone who's experienced individuality.

There is a Voyager episode where Seven meets up with 3 former drones that deals with the subject of re-assimilation and its effects much better (in that it makes more sense) than this episode of TNG does.

"If you're waiting for a woman to make up her mind, you may have a long wait." Preacher

[–] RubyHypatia 8 years ago

The crew speculated that Hugh's new found individuality might have an impact on the Borg, and it did. But that only infected one cube. No doubt any infected cube would be immediately cut off from the collective, or amputated. The virus would have only infected one cube as well, hardly making a dent in the collective.

Morally speaking, should you use an innocent being to kill millions of drones? Remember what happened to Icheb on VOY, his parents did that with him, and he was lucky to survive. Then they tried to do it a second time with him, but the VOY crew rescued him. Should Janeway be court martialed for that?

[–] revengine 8 years ago

Icheb's story is a bit different from Hugh's - Icheb was forced into becoming part of the collective by his parents as part of their plan of fighting against the Borg. We as viewers have a problem with it because of his age - if he were an adult and were a consenting participant, there'd be no issue. We'd actually see it as a fairly brilliant plan, which is it, for the most part. Would you have an issue with Icheb picking up a phaser and fighting the Borg in a conventional way? What's to say he hadn't beforehand? And why is he innocent?

"If you're waiting for a woman to make up her mind, you may have a long wait." Preacher

[–] RubyHypatia 8 years ago

It's one thing for Icheb to protect himself and others when Borg are attacking, it's quite another to use him as a weapon.

[–] revengine 8 years ago

How well do you think Icheb's people would do in a fight against the Borg? How long would they last before Icheb and the others were either dead or assimilated? They were fighting the only way they knew how, Icheb's parents made that pretty clear.

I think Janeway was lucky they weren't in the Alpha Quadrant with Star Fleet to kick her ass for interfering. Not only did she violate the Prime Directive, she violated a standing order to take out the Borg whenever the opportunity presented itself.

"If you're waiting for a woman to make up her mind, you may have a long wait." Preacher

[–] RubyHypatia 8 years ago

How well do you think Icheb's people would do in a fight against the Borg? How long would they last before Icheb and the others were either dead or assimilated? They were fighting the only way they knew how, Icheb's parents made that pretty clear.

Icheb's parents could have chosen to leave their planet and move to a safer location, but they chose their home over their son.

I think Janeway was lucky they weren't in the Alpha Quadrant with Star Fleet to kick her ass for interfering. Not only did she violate the Prime Directive, she violated a standing order to take out the Borg whenever the opportunity presented itself.

Interfering? Icheb became one of their own, and you don't abandon one of your own to be used as a weapon against his will.

[–] revengine 8 years ago

Icheb's parents could have chosen to leave their planet and move to a safer location, but they chose their home over their son.

I don't think it was Icheb's parents alone making the decision, it was the entire Brunali colony. They were dealing with the situation the best way they knew how; sacrifice the life of one for the safety of the entire colony. You may say the planet is not worth protecting (much like Seven said) but I'll side with the Capt's original statement that it's not for you to decide. It's their home, they've decided to protect it - how they do that is not for Seven or Star Fleet to decide unless it directly interferes with them.

Interfering? Icheb became one of their own, and you don't abandon one of your own to be used as a weapon against his will.

No, he's not one of Voyager's own, he's Brunali - Voyager rescued him, he didn't voluntarily become part of Voyager's crew. I suppose if, like Neelix finding that colony of Talaxians, everything was honky dory with the Brunali, it would be okay if Icheb went back with them. But because of their means of protecting themselves, then heck no he shouldn't. Well, the Prime Directive says too bad, it's not your decision.

What I also find funny is that although Voyager disagreed with how the Brunali defended themselves against the Borg, they were okay with using the pathogen the Brunali developed for their own defense against the Borg. Hypocrite much?

"If you're waiting for a woman to make up her mind, you may have a long wait." Preacher

[–] RubyHypatia 8 years ago

I don't think it was Icheb's parents alone making the decision, it was the entire Brunali colony. They were dealing with the situation the best way they knew how; sacrifice the life of one for the safety of the entire colony. You may say the planet is not worth protecting (much like Seven said) but I'll side with the Capt's original statement that it's not for you to decide. It's their home, they've decided to protect it - how they do that is not for Seven or Star Fleet to decide unless it directly interferes with them.

Icheb's parents were very clear that they did not want to leave their planet. So yes, they chose their home over their son. What parent does that? I would NEVER choose my home over my child. Janeway and Seven had every right to rescue Icheb. They took him in, cared for him, basically adopted him. And he should not be forced to sacrifice his life for others.

No, he's not one of Voyager's own, he's Brunali - Voyager rescued him, he didn't voluntarily become part of Voyager's crew. I suppose if, like Neelix finding that colony of Talaxians, everything was honky dory with the Brunali, it would be okay if Icheb went back with them. But because of their means of protecting themselves, then heck no he shouldn't. Well, the Prime Directive says too bad, it's not your decision.

No, the Prime Directive doesn't say you have to hand over your adopted ex-Borg to his parents to be used as a weapon.

What I also find funny is that although Voyager disagreed with how the Brunali defended themselves against the Borg, they were okay with using the pathogen the Brunali developed for their own defense against the Borg. Hypocrite much?

They would only by hypocrites if they forced someone to sacrifice his life delivering that virus.

[–] revengine 8 years ago

Icheb's parents were very clear that they did not want to leave their planet. So yes, they chose their home over their son. What parent does that?

Brunali parents who value the survival of the colony over that of one person. Don't judge them according to human/UFP/Star Fleet standards, they aren't.

Janeway and Seven had every right to rescue Icheb. They took him in, cared for him, basically adopted him. And he should not be forced to sacrifice his life for others.

He's not being forced to sacrifice his life - who says the Borg are going to attack the colony again? Maybe they'll never come back, maybe the Brunali will develop another defense. Maybe Icheb would be a major part in developing that new defense.

No, the Prime Directive doesn't say you have to hand over your adopted ex-Borg to his parents to be used as a weapon.

Prime Directive is non-interference. The main reason Voyager didn't want to return Icheb was because they didn't agree with how the Brunali dealt with the Borg. Prime Directive says too bad, you can't tell an alien species, especially one which is not part of the UFP, how to run their planet - that would be INTERFERENCE. Besides, parents asking for return of child trumps wishes of rescuers of said child.

They would only by hypocrites if they forced someone to sacrifice his life delivering that virus.

They are hypocrites if they use a pathogen developed by a people who use it in a way Voyager doesn't agree with no matter how they use it, which is exactly what Voyager did. It's similar to when the Dr. created the Cardasian Dr. to treat B'Elanna and they found out the real Cardasian developed his techniques using brutal methods - they deleted the Cardasian Dr. but the Voyager Dr. used the Cardasian's methods to treat B'Elanna anyway. At least he admitted to being hypocritical.

A real world analogy would be when the US says they don't torture prisoners suspected of terrorist activity to obtain information, but if a prisoner is captured in a country that DOES use torture to obtain information and that information is passed on to the US, then it's okay.

"If you're waiting for a woman to make up her mind, you may have a long wait." Preacher

[–] RubyHypatia 8 years ago

Brunali parents who value the survival of the colony over that of one person. Don't judge them according to human/UFP/Star Fleet standards, they aren't.

That colony could survive elsewhere. And how else am I supposed to judge?

He's not being forced to sacrifice his life - who says the Borg are going to attack the colony again? Maybe they'll never come back, maybe the Brunali will develop another defense. Maybe Icheb would be a major part in developing that new defense.

Did you not watch the episode? Once Voyager left, his parents put him on a ship and aimed him at the Borg. He would have died had Janeway and crew not rescued him.

Prime Directive is non-interference. The main reason Voyager didn't want to return Icheb was because they didn't agree with how the Brunali dealt with the Borg. Prime Directive says too bad, you can't tell an alien species, especially one which is not part of the UFP, how to run their planet - that would be INTERFERENCE. Besides, parents asking for return of child trumps wishes of rescuers of said child.

No, the Prime Directive does not say, "too bad." Starfleet ships are allowed to take in people requesting asylum. Icheb didn't know his parents were going to sacrifice his life, and he never agreed to it. Voyager having adopted Icheb knew he'd never agree to that. So yes, they had every right to interfere.

They are hypocrites if they use a pathogen developed by a people who use it in a way Voyager doesn't agree with no matter how they use it, which is exactly what Voyager did. It's similar to when the Dr. created the Cardasian Dr. to treat B'Elanna and they found out the real Cardasian developed his techniques using brutal methods - they deleted the Cardasian Dr. but the Voyager Dr. used the Cardasian's methods to treat B'Elanna anyway. At least he admitted to being hypocritical.

No, it's not hypocritical to use a known treatment that was gained through evil methods. Using the treatment in not an endorsement of how the treatment was developed. Torres dying wasn't going to right any wrongs. A lot of times good comes from evil, it doesn't justify the evil.

A real world analogy would be when the US says they don't torture prisoners suspected of terrorist activity to obtain information, but if a prisoner is captured in a country that DOES use torture to obtain information and that information is passed on to the US, then it's okay.

Would you torture an evil person to save innocent lives? I would.

[–] revengine 8 years ago

That colony could survive elsewhere. And how else am I supposed to judge?

Sure, they could, but why should they? That's their home. You're not supposed to judge at all. Or, if you can't avoid judging them, don't act on your feelings. At least try to help the Brunali, they are fighting a common enemy after all.

Did you not watch the episode? Once Voyager left, his parents put him on a ship and aimed him at the Borg. He would have died had Janeway and crew not rescued him.

I admit it has been a while so I didn't recall that part. But Icheb wouldn't have died, he would have been assimilated and the rest of the infected Borg would have died. He would have lived.

No, the Prime Directive does not say, "too bad." Starfleet ships are allowed to take in people requesting asylum. Icheb didn't know his parents were going to sacrifice his life, and he never agreed to it. Voyager having adopted Icheb knew he'd never agree to that. So yes, they had every right to interfere.

Sure, if someone requests asylum. I'm not sure of Icheb's age and when he would gain rights to make his own decisions, but if his parents are still considered his legal guardians, then there's nothing Voyager can do according to the PD. Star Fleet, as much as they'd like to think they are, are not the galactic bully police force.

No, it's not hypocritical to use a known treatment that was gained through evil methods.

Using the treatment and condemning how the treatment was developed? Yeah, it is hypocritical. Just use the treatment and be glad it's available.

Using the treatment in not an endorsement of how the treatment was developed. Torres dying wasn't going to right any wrongs. A lot of times good comes from evil, it doesn't justify the evil.

Agreed. We live in a world full of technology based on stuff from WWII but I'm not going to lose sleep because something I own may have originally been developed by the Nazis. But to behave the way the Voyager crew did, to go *beep* and go so far as to delete a holodeck character because he was based on the Dr. who created the treatment - then turn around and use the treatment anyways. Hypocritical. Same with how they treated the Brunali, totally condemning them then stealing back Icheb, then use the pathogen for themselves later. Hypocrites.

Would you torture an evil person to save innocent lives? I would.

That's not what I said, I said it's hypocritical to say "Torturing for information is wrong." But then accept information from someone else who did the torturing for you. Just do the torturing yourself or just admit you think torture for information is okay.

"If you're waiting for a woman to make up her mind, you may have a long wait." Preacher

[–] bjlevine 8 years ago

This episode is #1 on my list of "Why Jean Luc Picard should face Court Martial." He had the opportunity to destroy the Borg, and went all touchy-feely instead.

The Borg are not species with rights. They are body snatchers, plain and simple.

Sure glad they cut the scene where Geordi and Hugh get all intimate.

17 Fake CJs Ignored (and counting)

[–] darkslyde 8 years ago

I do love TNG for its originality, innovation and novelty at the time. I suppose that by the time of DS9 and VOY the series and themes had already been well-established, with the writers able to draw on them easily. I just feel that DS9 is superior and more engaging as a story arc, almost like a novel.

Perhaps we can let them off for this one and just pretend that Picard did go through with the original plan.

I remember that episode of Voyager as well, with the drones trying to break free of the collective consciousness. It did however strike me as slightly disconcerting that Seven (spoilers) basically ratted them out, spending all her time trying to track them down on the planet, eventually using her nanoprobes to create their separate telepathic link, almost killing them. She didn't even gain perspective once they had finally managed to locate her. But she got to lead a happy life on Voyager, while those drones were total outcasts, being accepted neither by people nor Borg. Moral of the story: you can get away with being completely heartless, provided you're Jeri Ryan. Not one for the kids. I guess by the time of VOY Trek had gotten a bit superficial, perhaps through its uncanny knack for reflecting societal norms and zeitgeists so well.

[–] RubyHypatia 8 years ago

I remember that episode of Voyager as well, with the drones trying to break free of the collective consciousness. It did however strike me as slightly disconcerting that Seven (spoilers) basically ratted them out, spending all her time trying to track them down on the planet, eventually using her nanoprobes to create their separate telepathic link, almost killing them. She didn't even gain perspective once they had finally managed to locate her. But she got to lead a happy life on Voyager, while those drones were total outcasts, being accepted neither by people nor Borg. Moral of the story: you can get away with being completely heartless, provided you're Jeri Ryan. Not one for the kids. I guess by the time of VOY Trek had gotten a bit superficial, perhaps through its uncanny knack for reflecting societal norms and zeitgeists so well.

Seven was assimilated at such a young age that she couldn't handle the sudden individuality like the others could. She chased them down and re-assimilated them out of fear, and she felt really bad about having done that.

[–] bjlevine 8 years ago

Don't forget that she becomes surrogate mother to Borg Boy (and his dog Krypto).

Just felt to me that the Borg were getting worse as an adversary with every episode.

I wonder what would've happened had Starfleet managed to destroy the Borg matrix and freed all the drones. How would they be "assimilated" back into society, considering there are likely millions of them?

17 Fake CJs Ignored (and counting)

[–] RubyHypatia 8 years ago

Don't forget that she becomes surrogate mother to Borg Boy (and his dog Krypto).

Just felt to me that the Borg were getting worse as an adversary with every episode.

I wonder what would've happened had Starfleet managed to destroy the Borg matrix and freed all the drones. How would they be "assimilated" back into society, considering there are likely millions of them?

The more mysterious an enemy is, the more menacing it seems.

Who knows? Maybe a virus can be created that destroys whatever it is that keeps the drones linked to the collective. But still, the collective would cut off any ship with that virus, and become immune to it. One of the things scary about the Borg is that you'd have to destroy the entire collective in order for them not to be a threat.

[–] darkslyde 8 years ago

Ruby & Wylde:
Precisely. They are indeed at war with the Borg; that makes the Borg the enemy and not to be spoon-fed.
Absolutely, Riker needs to function as check and balance to the Captain and should question him whenever he makes erratic or dangerous decisions, and that certainly applies here.
I disagree that the original plan would have failed though. As we see in Voyager there is a central Borg 'city', and a supreme leader (Borg Queen). In a carefully planned and executed operation Future Janeway plants a virus into her Borg unimatrix, and this origin point provides the ideal location for the dissemination of an invasive program, infecting all the Borg at once, essentially eliminating them. We don't know where Hugh was assigned or if another opportunity like this one would present itself at any time in the future or even if the Borg have countermeasures to Starfleet-signature viruses (they have had limited contact with the UFP) so it makes logical sense to attempt a controlled shutdown of Borg activity this way.

Something else about the Borg I think is interesting to consider: they are drawn as an enemy, and their interdependence is here alluded to as weakness to be exploited in an attempt to get rid of them. A comparison between the individualistic, determinist, existentialist human approach and the collectivist 'alien' 'other' approach is inescapable. The Borg are portrayed very similar to Communists, which plays on the fears of Americans and some Westerners in general at the time of release with the Cold War still a major factor in people's minds.

The moral dilemma here is of course at the crux of the philosophical intrigue of this episode; most episodes have some sort of inextricable issue to contend with. Do the ends justify the means has been a contentious subject throughout human history and in this case, I don't know if one can be absolutely sure that not sacrificing one individual to ensure the survival of the human race is acceptable. Granted, it is a difficult question, but if there were a war, wouldn't the stakes and risk of calamitous civilian casualties be much higher? The Borg all become soldiers upon assimilation but Picard has Federation citizens to think about. After all, that is his job, what he has been recruited and sent out to do, ensure as a Starfleet officer humanity's survival with whatever means at his disposal. Why put phasers and photon torpedoes on a Starship in the first place? Its mission may be peaceful exploration, but not at the cost of the crew's lives. And that principle extends beyond the hull of the Enterprise. Exploring the galaxy entails risk and if that risk is not properly mitigated, the wars with the Klingons, Cardassians and potentially the Borg would end with the destruction of humanity - bye bye Starfleet, bye bye Federation, and in turn, the end of peaceful exploration for humans, the primary mission. As Q said, if you can't take a little bloody nose perhaps you should go home and crawl under your bed.

And indeed, there is a difference between voluntarily offering your child to the Borg to be used as a weapon and sending back a Borg drone to be reintegrated. Freeing someone who has experienced individuality before is a far cry from guessing what someone's past was before they became your enemy.

[–] WyldeGoose 8 years ago

I disagree that the original plan would have failed though. As we see in Voyager there is a central Borg 'city', and a supreme leader (Borg Queen). In a carefully planned and executed operation Future Janeway plants a virus into her Borg unimatrix, and this origin point provides the ideal location for the dissemination of an invasive program, infecting all the Borg at once, essentially eliminating them. We don't know where Hugh was assigned or if another opportunity like this one would present itself at any time in the future or even if the Borg have countermeasures to Starfleet-signature viruses (they have had limited contact with the UFP) so it makes logical sense to attempt a controlled shutdown of Borg activity this way.

There are two problems with this. First, they didn't know about any queen, or any central Borg "city." It's possible Picard may have known, but he never gave any indication that he did know, never revealing anything about this, and if he did in this episode, letting everyone to know why specifically and alluding to a queen and Borg city and such, that would've raised a red alert right then and there, by rights. Riker would've been well within his duties to relieve Picard as Captain of the Enterprise on that basis, because apparently, he knew something they didn't know, and didn't at all divulge that information after he was removed from the Collective. That's a gigantic, monumental, Pearl Harbor/9-11 level of problem, because if he whether or not he was debriefed, and he didn't let everyone know about this, then that means he's disloyal to the Federation, because he's been compromised as an officer. Which of course leads me to rail against Picard being allowed to remain in command of anything, much less the "Flagship of the Federation."

The second problem is, as I've said, standing orders. There has got to be standing orders regarding Starfleet assets getting Borg POWs. If not, this is even bigger problem, an "OH S#IT! THE PRESIDENT HAS BEEN SHOT!" level of emergency. Because that's profound incompetence, a scandal of incredible proportion. Even Captain Horatio Hornblower and Captain James T. Kirk had standing orders for their voyages, and I'm sure Picard had them too. His first duty was to obey them.

The moral dilemma here is of course at the crux of the philosophical intrigue of this episode; most episodes have some sort of inextricable issue to contend with. Do the ends justify the means has been a contentious subject throughout human history and in this case, I don't know if one can be absolutely sure that not sacrificing one individual to ensure the survival of the human race is acceptable. Granted, it is a difficult question, but if there were a war, wouldn't the stakes and risk of calamitous civilian casualties be much higher? The Borg all become soldiers upon assimilation but Picard has Federation citizens to think about. After all, that is his job, what he has been recruited and sent out to do, ensure as a Starfleet officer humanity's survival with whatever means at his disposal. Why put phasers and photon torpedoes on a Starship in the first place? Its mission may be peaceful exploration, but not at the cost of the crew's lives. And that principle extends beyond the hull of the Enterprise. Exploring the galaxy entails risk and if that risk is not properly mitigated, the wars with the Klingons, Cardassians and potentially the Borg would end with the destruction of humanity - bye bye Starfleet, bye bye Federation, and in turn, the end of peaceful exploration for humans, the primary mission. As Q said, if you can't take a little bloody nose perhaps you should go home and crawl under your bed.

It's a moral dilemma everyone who chooses to be a soldier faces. Because your job has to involve doing some very ugly things because the goal is to protect the nation and her interests. Sometimes, you have to execute spies, for instance. While they may have surrendered and all, you still have to shoot them, on sight, as we did during the Battle of the Bulge to German troops masquerading as American and British soldiers, because this is what happens to spies. Spies can completely wreck your goals toward victory, and cost more lives than bombs and bullets could ever do. I once asked a B17 bombadier from WWII if he ever felt bad about bombing German civilians, and he said, "If a German hausfrau (housewife) makes a sandwich for her husband who works at the factory that only makes buttons for German uniforms, then she is doing her part for the German war effort and keeping me in the sky over her country that much longer than I want to be." War is Hell, and while we try to safeguard the lives of individuals, individuals make up a nation, and it's the people we are fighting, not just the leaders.

[–] darkslyde 8 years ago

If spies are a problem, surely they wouldn't have wanted a BORG spy on the inside? And who's to say he would have been in any way cooperative? Also time is a factor so I think it makes the most sense to destroy the Borg there and then. After all we didn't start the war. They decided human's technology was worth stealing, scouted the Enterprise then declared war on the Federation. That demands a response from us. Since they are clearly far more advanced, some kind of guerrilla tactics would be advised. Since we don't know what the standing orders were, and since Necheyev's debrief of Picard later didn't mention any, I think Starfleet would have been more pleased with an attempt to damage/ eradicate the Borg threat than doing basically nothing at all.

Of course generally, the chain of command, the guiding principle of any military organisation, has to be followed. However this is an exceptional circumstance that may warrant a more thorough examination, at least if only by the highest ranking officer present. Interestingly, as Picard says, Starfleet doesn't want officers who will just blindly follow orders. (Sisko also goes into the Gamma Quadrant against orders and is told by Admiral Toddman later: If you pull a stunt like that again, I'll court-martial you, or I'll promote you).

Even if at this point they didn't know about a Borg city or leader, I think it's best to err on the side of caution. Especially when you know you enemy and that they possess no humanity and absolute ruthlessness and would definitely not show you any kind of compassion or empathy if the situation were reversed (or in any situation).

[–] WyldeGoose 8 years ago

If spies are a problem, surely they wouldn't have wanted a BORG spy on the inside? And who's to say he would have been in any way cooperative? Also time is a factor so I think it makes the most sense to destroy the Borg there and then. After all we didn't start the war. They decided human's technology was worth stealing, scouted the Enterprise then declared war on the Federation. That demands a response from us. Since they are clearly far more advanced, some kind of guerrilla tactics would be advised. Since we don't know what the standing orders were, and since Necheyev's debrief of Picard later didn't mention any, I think Starfleet would have been more pleased with an attempt to damage/ eradicate the Borg threat than doing basically nothing at all.

Which brings me to how lovable and cute Hugh was. Suppose instead of Hugh, we got someone like Crosis, from TNG Descent, who's rattling off how to efficiently kill each race as he sees them. Would Geordi, Beverly and Data have any reservations about using him against the Borg if they could? I seriously doubt it.

Time may, indeed, be a factor, and I did say that Picard's initial plan was in keeping with the spirit of any potential standing orders against the Borg. If he did it, whether it was successful or not, he might still get chewed out by the admiralty, because his first duty was to inform them of the situation and get their feedback.

Of course generally, the chain of command, the guiding principle of any military organisation, has to be followed. However this is an exceptional circumstance that may warrant a more thorough examination, at least if only by the highest ranking officer present. Interestingly, as Picard says, Starfleet doesn't want officers who will just blindly follow orders. (Sisko also goes into the Gamma Quadrant against orders and is told by Admiral Toddman later: If you pull a stunt like that again, I'll court-martial you, or I'll promote you).

This is so, but was it really so exceptional? Suppose it wasn't Picard and the Enterprise-D that found Hugh, but some other Starfleet vessel? What would they have done? Under the circumstances, they might've done what they could to secure, safeguard, and swiftly deliver Hugh to the nearest or specified Starbase, and/or informed Starfleet Command of the situation (through coded channels) and receive orders to rendezvous with another ship who will take charge of the POW and deliver him wherever. I wonder if another captain without Picard's unique experience with the Borg might've even considered this invasive program option, or even to deliver Hugh back to the Collective on the premise that a "residue" of individuality might infect the Borg (which it apparently did).

I have a difficult time believing that time was all that big a factor here. They operate under a lot of presumptions; even Hugh does, when he says that the Borg would come after him. Why would they do that? When they don't assimilate individuals, but entire cultures? Why would they care about one drone, when they didn't care about retrieving Locutus (when they really ought to have)?

Even if at this point they didn't know about a Borg city or leader, I think it's best to err on the side of caution. Especially when you know you enemy and that they possess no humanity and absolute ruthlessness and would definitely not show you any kind of compassion or empathy if the situation were reversed (or in any situation).

Which is why you deliver him to a starbase for research purposes. That would've been the safer option, even if it didn't entirely seem prudent at the time. What I see, however, is not so much a prudential move on Picard's decisions both to use Hugh as a vector for an invasive program, or to deliver him to the Borg, but a peculiar mindset that is based more on presumption and ideology than it is on anything particularly sound. It seems to me that Star Trek's answer to everything, particularly TNG and beyond, is applying an emergent technological approach, to immediately think outside the box before even understanding what the box is in order to operate outside of it. They do this frequently, when better, more feasible options are already available to them. My solution to a Borg invasion simply was never once addressed, if even to say why it wouldn't work:

The solution being to go in with a ship or two, bypass the Borg's anti-beaming field, and beam in a few dozen thermonuclear warheads along with some decoys, and set them to detonate as soon as they materialized. We know this would've worked, because we see our heroes repeatedly beaming over to Borg ships and nothing ever happens until they start messing around with things on board. This is an indication of nonexistent operations security (OPSEC, by US/UK military parlance) on the part of the Borg, and this exists well into Voyager. I have a few other solutions in case the Borg mysteriously adapt to this, but I doubt they'd be needed because I don't see how the Borg would be able to adapt to this because they wouldn't know precisely what happened when their cubes exploded from the inside, unless they send in fleets of cubes (but I have solutions for that too).

[–] darkslyde 8 years ago

I agree with most of this as a hypothetical premise, but you're forgetting that Borg are telepaths. Unacceptable security risk.

They did go to some effort to portray Hugh as lovable and cute for a Borg, in order for the audience to identify with his plight and associate with the emotional turnaround undergone by the crew. Allowing appearances to override judgement is exactly what makes this episode implausible for me. Picard perhaps put it best -

PICARD
(fed up)
Because he's been given a name
by a member of the crew doesn't
mean he's no longer Borg. Because
he's young doesn't mean he's
innocent. He is what he is and
in spite of the efforts to turn
him into some kind of pet -- I
will not alter our plans.

Yeah they do always call upon technology as the saviour of any problem don't they. Cause it's a show technology always saves the day even if it isn't fully explained exactly what that technology is; but this is unlikely to work in real-life situations.

[–] RubyHypatia 8 years ago

Borg are telepaths? Since when?

Hugh didn't get compassion because he was cute. He got compassion because his individuality emerged, and that emerging individuality caused him to develop a friendship with Geordi. Remember when Picard commanded Hugh to assimilate Geordi, he refused.

So what if technology saves the day? They're living in a time when everyone relies heavily on it.

[–] WyldeGoose 8 years ago

So what if technology saves the day? They're living in a time when everyone relies heavily on it.

It's not their reliance on technological solutions that bother me, but inventing new applications for it on the fly, often with no testing at all, and it always works out right the first time that I have a problem with. This wasn't all that bad in TNG, but DS9 and then Voyager and Enterprise went full technobabble sorcery on us on a regular basis. Engineering doesn't really work this way. While I can believe some things, such as when Scotty is telling Geordi in TNG Relics that he wrote the regulations regarding deuterium tank pressures and such, and then telling him that the tank will hold at the pressures they need, because that's feasible. But rerouting the way the tractor beam works only on a computer display to make it into a repulsor beam when it's not designed for that in the first place is a little much (TNG Naked Now). Or, even how Barclay was able to invent a neurological interface on the fly with the holodeck is a bit hard to swallow; I don't care how smart he may have been, it just should not have worked, because it's all holographic with no actual working parts in it at all. Then there's all the times they used the magical navigational deflector for everything it was not designed to do. I might believe it in BoBW, given the way they made it seem hazardous and they only got one shot with it, but the subsequent times were unbelievable.

For a show that touted itself off-screen as being true to scientific and engineering principles, it's rather questionable in this regard.

As to your point about Hugh getting compassion because his individuality emerged, well, suppose we're dealing with Crosis? A cyborg who has no qualms about killing people? His individuality had emerged too.

[–] RubyHypatia 8 years ago

Yeah, I'd have no problem sending an evil cyborg to his death.

[–] darkslyde 8 years ago

As in Borgs are telepaths with each other. Anything 'Hugh' (or any other Borg POW) saw whilst in captivity would have been automatically sent back to the central Borg network via the collective consciousness. The way they function, their very essence is based on interconnectivity, as we see in BoBW when Data gains control of the Borg root command program through his interlink to Picard-Locutus, and 'sends them all to sleep'. The Borg ship is remotely powered down from the Enterprise, in turn halting the attack on Earth. So, a Borg, even if captured, would prove to be a serious security risk as anything s/he saw, e.g. technology, individuals, starfixes giving away locations of bases and materiel, would have been instantly communicated back to Borg HQ.

[–] darkslyde 8 years ago

Remember when Picard commanded Hugh to assimilate Geordi, he refused.

How can we be sure this wasn't in actual fact strategy? One Borg, completely outnumbered, could have been given standing orders (much as Wylde was talking about regarding Starfleet capture of Borg POWs), orders which could even be hardwired into his neural circuitry and therefore impossible to circumvent, to gain the trust of his/her captors, perhaps even via deception and pretending to be a nice new non-'resistance is futile' guy, in order to find out as much as possible about them. Makes sense to me; freedom to reconnoitre from directly behind enemy lines with little chance of (in this case) death or incarceration from the lovey-dovey humans. It would be making the most of the situation and certainly more advantageous than just being hostile and being sent back post-haste.

[–] RubyHypatia 8 years ago

I just can't see Picard's virus destroying the entire collective. The Borg were far superior in technology and no doubt have had viruses thrown at them many times before. Future Janeway succeeded because the technology she possessed is superior to the Borg's, though I'm not sure if she destroyed the entire collective.

[–] bloopville 8 years ago

The issue of committing genocide on an enemy is addressed multiple times in the Star Trek Universe. The most sympathetic characters are always presented as being against annihilating enemy races. This is addressed in DS9 with the Founders, as well.

At various times, curious super alien races put humans to the test. In general, if Star Trek Universe humans don't pass these tests of curiosity, will to live, generousness and all the other Roddenberry endorsed characteristics, then, it is presumed, humans would suffer some catastrophic fate. It is the same characteristics that allow them to pass these super alien tests that occur in multiple Star Trek Universe episodes, that allow them to see the humanity in the Borg, and not use genocide as the solution against them.

The message is clear: If the Federation used the tactics of their enemies, than the Federation wouldn't be worth saving. It would no longer be an aspirational endeavor. It would mere become a place for various bi-pedal races to hang their hat, and, someday, would devolve into the nearly self annihilation stage that is often alluded to having occurred in the the 21st century.

So, using a "biological weapon", as originally planned, goes against the ethos of Star Trek, and a human race that actually used that tactic wouldn't have survived to become the Federation, nor been able to maintain it.

Parallels to the present are obvious.

[–] cjh8504 8 years ago

16 years a member. Congratulations, Bloop. Rarely I see someone here longer than me.

RIP Tony Burton. RIP George Kennedy. RIP Doris Roberts. You were wonderful in ELR.

[–] memayse1701 8 years ago

I think the BORG should have been eliminated at the end of THE BEST OF BOTH WORLDS...the BORG is just one threatening unstoppable cube that was stopped. THE END.

[–] cjh8504 8 years ago

I fully agree with that, Mem. That would've been best. But, some of the later Borg stuff is great too.

RIP Tony Burton. RIP George Kennedy. RIP Doris Roberts. You were wonderful in ELR.

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] cjh8504 8 years ago

I agree 100% with that sentiment, Bj. Should've destroyed the Borg when he could've.

RIP Tony Burton. RIP George Kennedy. RIP Doris Roberts. You were wonderful in ELR.

[–] stargazer1701-1 8 years ago

Beverly Crusher wasn't getting 'her own way'. She was acting professionally and performing medical assistance accordingly. The Hippocratic oath has no boundaries and any one who is medically trained must respond without prejudice... even if it were to give aid to an enemy.

I, Borg was a sophisticated episode. The chain of events from the beginning happened quickly and before they knew it, the crew of the Enterprise had a big scary tiger by the tail. To their relief, they saw they had control of the situation and they took advantage of it.

The Borg, being disconnected from the collective, slowly turned to his individuality, asked questions and soon began to adapt to the people working on him. I didn't see any Stockholm Syndrome at all. I saw mercy and compassion from Geordi and Crusher who, by the way were able to see the person under the Borg technology. There was also fear in Guinan and apprehension in Worf and Picard.

Picard, already having experienced being a Borg, kept a tight reign on the situation. In my opinion, I think Picard was justified through out the entire story to do as he did. He saw an opportunity, tested the situation put a virus in the program to put an end to the Borg.

I admit that there was a one sappy moment when Geordi named the Borg, but this provided some stupid/ comic relief to the otherwise tension of the show.

Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast

[–] darkslyde 8 years ago

Of course she has a duty under the Hippocratic Oath to render aid. But she also has a duty not to get her colleagues/ the human race killed. The latter outweighs the former I think.

The events did not happen so quickly that there was no time to analyse the situation. A Borg was found, then it was brought aboard ship. By this point Picard had already developed the plan to send it back with a virus. He just changed his mind when he allowed emotion to influence his judgement (and probably because this would have meant the end for the writers of an interesting and formidable enemy).

As BJ said: The Borg are not species with rights. They are body snatchers, plain and simple. And I would agree with that. It is irrelevant whether or not there is a person under the armour (and by the way, even after gaining a measure of 'individuality' this Borg does not even apologise in any way for attempting to assimilate humanity). The Borg are partly or mostly soulless machines, so much has their evolution been intertwined with technology, even from birth as we see in Q Who. They are also responsible for millions+ deaths on their quest for more power and have brought nothing but death, destruction and misery to the galaxy.

I think here the plot device was transparent and the logic thus missing.

[–] RubyHypatia 8 years ago

Hugh was an innocent victim, not responsible for actions he could not control. Would it be okay to infect a crewmember against his will, then aim him at the Borg in order to destroy them? What would you think if he was your son and his captain did that to him? Well, Hugh was somebody's son.

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] RubyHypatia 8 years ago

Hugh chose to go back because he knew it would be too dangerous to the crew for him to stay. Picard decided that Hugh's individuality would work just as well as a virus.

[–] stargazer1701-1 8 years ago

Deep down inside, every Borg wished they were back to their old usual selves. They were people who were victimized.

Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] cjh8504 8 years ago

Picard should've virused them up. That would've been awesome. What an expected thing that would've been.

RIP Tony Burton. RIP George Kennedy. RIP Doris Roberts. You were wonderful in ELR.

[–] darkslyde 8 years ago

This is incorrect. We absolutely don't know what 'Hugh's' beginnings were before he was assimilated and we are never told. We know that Borg don't assimilate everyone they come across, not humans for instance, just our technology. At this point in the series we don't even know that Borg in fact do assimilate other life forms. Retrospectively speaking, while this is possible, we only find this out much later, although viewers at time time will not have known that. In fact the only evidence we have is when the away team beam over to the first Borg cube and discover the 'Borg nursery', where young are sired and immediately undergo technological enhancement. Therefore, we cannot logically presume that Hugh is someone's son.

[–] RubyHypatia 8 years ago

This is incorrect. We absolutely don't know what 'Hugh's' beginnings were before he was assimilated and we are never told. We know that Borg don't assimilate everyone they come across, not humans for instance, just our technology. At this point in the series we don't even know that Borg in fact do assimilate other life forms. Retrospectively speaking, while this is possible, we only find this out much later, although viewers at time time will not have known that. In fact the only evidence we have is when the away team beam over to the first Borg cube and discover the 'Borg nursery', where young are sired and immediately undergo technological enhancement. Therefore, we cannot logically presume that Hugh is someone's son.

I suppose he could have been a clone, but most likely he was assimilated because that's what we know about how Borg acquire their drones.

[–] cjh8504 8 years ago

At that time, Ruby, yes. I mean unexpected in my previous post, if anyone is following along.

RIP Tony Burton. RIP George Kennedy. RIP Doris Roberts. You were wonderful in ELR.

[–] bjlevine 8 years ago

The question is: Would whoever Hugh was before he was assimilated sacrifice himself to destroy the Borg? I certainly would. Commanding Officers frequently have to give orders that they know will send some men to their deaths.

17 Fake CJs Ignored (and counting)

[–] cjh8504 8 years ago

Like Picard did to that girl in what, Lower Decks, was it?

RIP Tony Burton. RIP George Kennedy. RIP Doris Roberts. You were wonderful in ELR.

[–] RubyHypatia 8 years ago

The question is: Would whoever Hugh was before he was assimilated sacrifice himself to destroy the Borg? I certainly would. Commanding Officers frequently have to give orders that they know will send some men to their deaths.

Only in extreme circumstances are people ordered to sacrifice their lives, like when under attack. Starfleet would never do what Icheb's parents did.

[–] bjlevine 8 years ago

The opportunity to destroy the Borg and potentially save trillions of lives isn't an extreme circumstance?

17 Fake CJs Ignored (and counting)

[–] cjh8504 8 years ago

It most definitely is, Beej.

RIP Tony Burton. RIP George Kennedy. RIP Doris Roberts. You were wonderful in ELR.

[–] Nexus71 8 years ago

To quote Spock;

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few ,or the one"

Certainly after Picard's statement in FC that by killing that crewman that was being assimilated "He was doing him a favour" I don't understand Picard in I Borg when he's not choosing to eradicate The Borg when he had the opportunity.As for Janeway at the end of VOY she is basicaly doing the same thing to The Borg(sacrificing herself to destroy the Borg with a virus) as the parents were doing with their son.

[–] cjh8504 8 years ago

I blame Beverly and Guinan. He was already with his plan, and damn bleeding heart Guinan and Beverly get in his ear. Blah.

RIP Tony Burton. RIP George Kennedy. RIP Doris Roberts. You were wonderful in ELR.

[–] Nexus71 8 years ago

But Picard as captain is responsible for his actions Nechayev should have court martialed Picard for negligence.

[–] cjh8504 8 years ago

He should drag Crusher and Guinan down with him. They talked him out of it.

RIP Tony Burton. RIP George Kennedy. RIP Doris Roberts. You were wonderful in ELR.

[–] Bubbathagut 8 years ago

What you have in this episode is a complete breakdown of discipline, starting at the senior staff and leading all the way to Picard. I consider this just as much a slight against Riker as it is against Picard. Riker should've been on hand to instill some discipline, and to even differ with Picard as to this plan, being there to remind the Captain of any standing orders about the Borg and Borg POWs. By rights, there should've been someone to say that the plan logically shouldn't work because the Borg ought to make it their business not to let their interdependence be a weakness for some sort of invasive program, and then to remind them that the Borg do drive out individuality from their drones in order to maintain a cohesive collective.

[–] RubyHypatia 8 years ago

The opportunity to destroy the Borg and potentially save trillions of lives isn't an extreme circumstance?

They don't know that they'd be saving trillions of lives. You don't force people to sacrifice their own lives when there's no immediate danger.

[–] bjlevine 8 years ago

There was always impending danger with the Borg.

17 Fake CJs Ignored (and counting)

[–] Nakitaakita-1 8 years ago

There is always impending danger with something or another.
Should you always make a preemptive struck and eradicate the possibility?
I don't think you reasonably could do that.

Jean-Luc says "I'll strip coach you anytime."

[–] bjlevine 8 years ago

Watch me.

17 Fake CJs Ignored (and counting)

[–] RubyHypatia 8 years ago

So what if there were Borg in the area and you came up with a virus that could cause them major damage, but you have pick someone to deliver that virus because you have no Hugh. Who are you going to pick?

[–] bjlevine 8 years ago

Under normal circumstances, Wesley, but any "redshirt" will do (or in TNG's case, "yellowshirt").

I wonder if the Borg would reject assimilating Wesley?

17 Fake CJs Ignored (and counting)

[–] cjh8504 8 years ago

The wunderkind? Nah. He knows a lot about the Enterprise. He'd be the first one.

RIP Tony Burton. RIP George Kennedy. RIP Doris Roberts. You were wonderful in ELR.

[–] bjlevine 8 years ago

Drone: "Shut up, Three of Five."

17 Fake CJs Ignored (and counting)

[–] Nexus71 8 years ago

We should send Troi after they assimilated her the whole cube needs therapy. 

or

Keiko O'Brien if she keeps nagging the Borg after she is assimilated,like she nagged Miles maybe they get so desperate that they will self destruct the cube. 

[–] cjh8504 8 years ago

I like the Keiko one. She was in M*A*S*H, I'm pretty positive.

RIP Tony Burton. RIP George Kennedy. RIP Doris Roberts. You were wonderful in ELR.

[–] Nexus71 8 years ago

I believe that actress was basically the Asian actress to go to in the late 70's and early 80's she appears in just about every major TV series or TV movie of that period.

[–] cjh8504 8 years ago

Nothing wrong with that. She played Klinger's wife in the final episode.

RIP Tony Burton. RIP George Kennedy. RIP Doris Roberts. You were wonderful in ELR.

[–] Nakitaakita-1 8 years ago

Are you sure it was the same actress?
Wouldn't she have been really young to have been on mash? Unless she was a child on the show.
Or are you doing the ' all Asians look alike' thing? 

Dropping your cell phone in the toilet is not nearly as funny as it seems

[–] cjh8504 8 years ago

Definitely the same actress. It was the final episode of M*A*S*H from 1983. She was in Trek less than 10 years later.

RIP Tony Burton. RIP George Kennedy. RIP Doris Roberts. You were wonderful in ELR.

[–] Nexus71 8 years ago

Are you sure it was the same actress?
Wouldn't she have been really young to have been on mash? Unless she was a child on the show.

She was in;

The Hardy Boys/Nancy Drew Mysteries
Kojak
The Incredible Hulk
Different Strokes
Bring 'Em Back Alive
M.A.S.H.
Falcon Crest
St. Elsewhere
The A-Team
Stingray
Tour Of Duty
Miami Vice so yeah looks like the same actress to me.

Or are you doing the ' all Asians look alike' thing?

No Nak that would not be PC. 

[–] cjh8504 8 years ago

Thanks for backing me up, Nex. She just gets easily offended because the poor thing is dating a Asian guy.

RIP Tony Burton. RIP George Kennedy. RIP Doris Roberts. You were wonderful in ELR.

[–] cjh8504 8 years ago

Lol. Funny, Bj. Even the Borg hates him.

RIP Tony Burton. RIP George Kennedy. RIP Doris Roberts. You were wonderful in ELR.

[–] darkslyde 8 years ago

Starfleet would do never condone or do what Icheb's parents did purely because it's unethical in the extreme. And we know how much they enjoy purporting to be the intergalactic paragons of morality. In fat if I remember correctly in that VOY episode quite some effort went into presenting the parents in a very negative light and Janeway & co correspondingly as Icheb's saviours. Starfleet, voluntary military conscription, on the other hand, is quite different. Any soldier, from the first professional armies of the ancient world to those of modern times, are expected to lay down their lives in the act of carrying out their duty if it so be required, and even take an oath of allegiance to that effect. Some have even used their own deaths as instruments of war, take kamikaze pilots or jihadi suicide bombers 'holy warriors' - for instance. I don't doubt that if no 'Hugh' were available, there wouldn't be a dearth of recruits eager to fight for the continued survival of the Federation; that is after all what they signed up for. But if it really came down to it, either from lack of personnel in the immediate situation or even a surplus of choice, the commanding officer would be entirely within his rights to order a soldier, any soldier under his command, to sacrifice their lives in the defence of the UFP. It is something they frequently have to do, and it isn't something they enjoy, but unfortunately needs must at the end of the day. The Borg are the greatest threat ever faced by humanity; omnipresent, implacable and pitiless. One single cube wiped out an entire Federation fleet at Wolf 359. Any opportunity to turn the tide in our favour should be closely examined, even if it meant sacrificing the life of a soldier, which in both military terms and common-sense-numbers terms, in this siutation, would be more acceptable than not. Since a) this is an occupational risk one would be well aware of and b) we're only considering this as a second option if the Borg drone plan doesn't work for whatever reason. Once again I maintain that this is a circumstance where implanting a virus via a captured drone is, on the whole, entirely justifiable. It's not like he's being killed. He's just being sent home. And as you said we can't even be 100% sure the virus would work. You can't get a better deal than that

But Picard as captain is responsible for his actions Nechayev should have court martialed Picard for negligence.

Nexus, I completely agree.

[–] Angry_Dukat 8 years ago

Ds9's Hippocratic Oath dealt with this kind of situation better. While it's believable that Bashir would be trying to help the Jem'Hadar with their addiction, in the end there was nothing he could do and O'Brien had to save him from himself. Bashir's compassion would have led to his death in this situation.

Progressive "logic": Quran-inspired attacks have nothing to do with Islam

[–] Nakitaakita-1 8 years ago

Hey man, Islam is a religion of peace.

just kidding ROTFLMAO

Dropping your cell phone in the toilet is not nearly as funny as it seems

[–] dpcole7 8 years ago

It feels contrived.

If anything, they should have kept the plan intact, put the Federation infinity bug into a deactivated Borg EEPROM to be found and analyzed, and keep Hugh in his post-Borg form and deactivate the homing signal and other technology. The episode goes out of its way to claim it's not possible and yet, 2 spinoffs later, "7 of 9" has hers removed - maybe due to the Federation now having enough data on how to successfully remove enough implants, I suppose...

Guinan, up to this episode, was pretty resolute on her hatred of the Borg. Why she changes her mind? Because a Borg half-disconnected from the collective acts all doe-eyed and cute. Picard had a point, until he decided to do what the writers were pushing toward with the saccharine change of plan.

Maybe Guinan realized that, once separated from the hive mind, that the Borg could be re-assimilated into the Federation or other cultures and re-learn. I don't think the episode discussed that aspect very well.

The episode is an interesting change of pace since they couldn't re-do TBOBW. Season 5's budget was clearly less than season 3's. To take the glorious novel "Vendetta" and make a 2-parter out of it was out of the question, unfortunately (it's light years superior to the 1996 movie "First Contact") and also deals with Borg disconnected from the hive - Hugh got the better end of the bargain...

[–] cjh8504 8 years ago

What's EEPROM, Dp?

RIP Tony Burton. RIP George Kennedy. RIP Doris Roberts. You were wonderful in ELR.