Americans who would have benefited....

I don't know who that is. Try the The Black Book of Communism.

Another largely (and famously) unverifiable propaganda piece.

I don't know. But I'd love to hear how many you think they killed.

Too many to even make an even half accurate count.

And be sure to point out in which instances people were killed because they were obstacles to the implementation of capitalism in a society, didn't sufficiently embrace the ideology of capitalism, or were just considered political enemies of capitalism for one reason or another.

Now this is being stupid. I have already mentioned cases where this happened, where people were killed for being Socialist (including Communists) or Anarchist (France after the fall of the Paris Commune, the Matewan Massacre, Weimar Germany, Imperial Japan, 1920s Bulgaria, Finland after the Civil War, Fascist Italy, Nazi Germany, Falangist/Francoist Spain, Fascist Hungary, Kuomintang China (i.e. Shanghai Massacre et cetera), pre and post-war Greece, South Korea (most famously the Bodo League massacre), Chile 1973 onwards, Argentina under Peron and the Junta, Mobutu's Zaire, 1960s Indonesia, South Vietnam, Saudi Arabia et cetera almost too many to list).

Well, they weren't wiped out, but I appreciate your wild exaggeration to make a point.

Well, I don't appreciate your deliberate misreading of my post. I didn't say they were all wiped out, but it was getting close. It is estimated that 90%-97% were in fact wiped out (albeit some from diseases spread by Europeans and Africans accidentally).

There are in fact over 5 million of them in the United States alone, many living in their own sovereign states within the United States.

Bull! They aren't "sovereign states" they are answerable to the US and the members have to live by US law (one of the reasons for the stand-off at Wounded Knee).

And many more in terms of descendants with ancestors who married into other ethnic groups. And in any event a great deal of that 'wiping out' took place before the United States existed, or while it existed, while the United State's economic system would be more accurately described as mercantilism, which again, is not capitalism.

Er, yes it is. It is a form of capitalism and was the most common form during early stages of capitalism. Almost any Economist would tell you this. Incidentally most Economists actually agree with Marx's classification of the stages of the modes of production; they just part company when he comes to the final stage which he identifies as the Communist stage (actually split into Socialist and True Communist but I digress) which aren't recognised as correct by the majority of Economists (who are Capitalist so it isn't at all surprising or unusual).

And of course besides all that, they were not 'wiped out' because of capitalism, but rather primarily because of the same type of ethnic hatreds that have plagued mankind since prehistory. Laying the blame for those deaths at the feet of capitalism is extremely dishonest.

As is laying the blame for the deaths due to famines, Nazi invasions, paranoia et cetera on the feet of Communism. But then again you are a Capitalist so it is acceptable to do this. Ridiculous.

Even if this argument weren't idiotic, which of course it is, shouldn't the blame for not doing anything be divided evenly amongst everyone who didn't do anything?

Let's say it should be for a moment (more on that) but what you and other Rightists argue is that "Communist" (which is usually used more freely than it should be) nations are to be held accountable for any death in their countries, from famines, to executions, to random murders, to invasions, however, you get offended and start trying the "we aren't to blame for this it was [insert excuse here]" line of reasoning. Sorry this doesn't wash.

So for the 300 million capitalist Americans who did nothing, they are more than offset by 1.4 BILLION communist Chinese who did nothing. Uh oh!

There is a difference between being indecisive in a famine to completely disenfranchising a people (African-Americans) making it so they cannot defend themselves enough from hate crimes and then in many cases condoning atrocities (at least on a local level) against that population. And again, my point is that you Capitalist drones always make these bold statements about the death toll of "EVUL COMUNISM!!!!111" holding the whole ideology accountable for anything bad without those societies then completely ignore similar criticism of their own ideology and society.

Incidentally the numbers of the population doesn't matter as, unlike you, I don't hold entire populations accountable for the actions of their governments so your "numbers game" nonsense holds no sway yet again.

If you and your buddy break into a house, and the house owner shoots your buddy, guess what, YOU are going to be charged with murder.

Firstly you seem to not know about either US, UK or international law.

If I broke into a house and my friend was shot by the owner I wouldn't be tried for murder; I'd actually by tried for trespassing and/or burglary. The owner who shot "Buddy" would be investigated and if he were deemed within his rights and protecting his home then all is well and good. If for instance "Buddy" was shot in the back fleeing the scene however this could cause some trouble for the house-owner who may be tried for voluntary manslaughter.

Incidentally a better analogy to the bombing of Japan would be this:
Pete and Buddy break into a house and kill Martha; the wife of Hank. Hank goes to Sheriff Jim who then calls out a squad to arrest Pete and Buddy. This is done after a gunfight in which Buddy is killed. The "posse" then round up the wounded Pete and take him into custody where he is tried and executed. However, as he is guilty then his family must be also as they fed and clothed him so they execute his wife and knock hole in the wall of the house in which the maimed children of Pete live. Grampa Pete (the father of Pete) who planned the original burglary get all misty eyed and his however not prosecuted because Lil Peter (one of Pete's children) is in line to inherit the house and Sheriff Jim hates the fact he wants to build basketball court in the garden and Jim would have to see it when he drives past the house every morning.

The same applies to international conflict. The country that starts the war is responsible for all deaths, on either side, because guess what, they started it.

Not according to the UN, NATO (unless they are involved on the winning side)... et cetera

"Total War" is actually illegal under international law.

There wouldn't have been a war had they not started it.

It is debatable whether Japan actually started WWII it is mostly thought to be Nazi Germany's attack on Poland which finally brought the UK and France into declaring war on Nazi Germany (arguably an error on the part of the West was refusing to join with the Soviets and defeat Nazi Germany a few years prior to the war (as was suggested by the Soviets... fact); instead of allowing Nazi Germany to annex Austria and conquer Czechoslovakia...) but yes Italy, Japan, Finland, Romania, Hungary etc were all on the Axis side. The UK declaration of war on Nazi Germany is generally said to be the start of WWII.
In your defence, however, there are a number of historians who count the start of the Second World War as the Marco Polo Bridge Incident and thus include all of the Sino-Japanese War as part of WW2. Needless to say the start was long before the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

We wouldn't have been bombing Japan had they not attacked us would we have?

A flawed argument. If we are going to leave aside the questionable morality of bombing civilians (and the hypocrisy of justifying it while trying to use a "they killed people" excuse to criticise an opposing ideology) for a moment; the argument could be made that Japan wouldn't have attacked the USA if it hadn't been blockading them (not that I condone or support Japan; that is more your bag (beign a lot closer to Imperial Japan on the spectrum than I am), other than the fact they were enemies of your country of course).

And I love how people always bring up the atomic bombs. Did you know the conventional fire bombing of Tokyo killed more people than both a-bombs caused outright combined?

For once you are correct, and usually I criticise that as well (as well as the fire-bombings in Germany). An oversight on my part. Needless to say the long-term effects of the bombs on the health of the people of Nagasaki and Hiroshima are greater than the fire-bombings; and are the most famous and commonly justified atrocities committed by the US military.

Kind of shows your bias doesn't it? The fact that you're more interested in attacking the U.S. with a common and familiar line of attack.

No, and you claiming this shows that you are way too touchy on the subject (and I'd hazard a guess that deep down you know it was not justified) and are trying to score easy points again, with your appeal to emotion over the dead (as if you care), and are thus looking like an hypocrite.

Otherwise you would have just quoted total civilian deaths by strategic bombing.

The numbers game again. As I have already been through this with someone else I can give an estimate of between 250,000 on the low end and 600,000 on the high end caused by bombing raids (many more Japanese died due to malnutrition and other causes linked to such raids and the effects of the war, making the number possibly as high as 1,000,000 casualties).

Anyway, none of those people were killed for capitalism.

In the same way most killed by Communist nations were not killed for Communism then. But the fact remains that war, as a whole, is largely a capitalist venture and in fact the enmity between Japan and the USA was indeed caused by capitalist considerations. Japan attacked Pearl Harbor due to disable the US Fleet so that it could consolidate its gains in Asia where and so it could control the supplies going into China and Southeast Asia as well as gain considerable natural resources from those countries. The USA had stopped trading machinery and other resources with Japan (not that I disagree with this) who then due to the loss of trading power viewed the USA as an enemy and rival for supremacy in East Asia and the Pacific.

The war between Japan and the US was one between two Capitalist powers vying for supremacy in natural resources and trade monopolies.

I'll give ya the vietnamese though.

Good. I'm glad you aren't as ridiculous to argue that point.

b.s. will not be accepted.

Then stop writing it then!

So anyway, I'll wait on your number. Again, be sure to explain how it was capitalism which was the reason they died.

Again, the numbers aren't important. My point it that it is an invalid line of reasoning (even though more have been killed by and in the Capitalist world than the Communist one). But if you insist.

And theoretical "lives which could have been saved if only..." b.s. will not be accepted.

Why should I cut out such deaths from my equations when you haven't from yours (as you are using regurgitated figures from 'The Black Book of Communism' and (unknowingly perhaps) Robert Conquest whose whole equations rest on counting deaths from the famines in the USSR and China, anyone executed for any crime, any death from a preventable disease and (disgracefully in many cases) deaths caused by the Germans when they invaded the Soviet Union (which get counted as Communist caused deaths) and from the Whites (or of Whites) in the Russian Civil War. Again, why should I be held to a higher standard than you or your sources? (maybe because I can actually defend socialism with reason rather than resorting to knee-jerk emotional reactions).

Again, there are far too many. Some significant events are:
European Conquest of the Americas = around 100,000,000
Atlantic Slave Trade = 1,000,000+
British East Indian Company's subjugation of India = 10,000,000 - 20,000,000
Paraguayan War = 400,000,000
Spanish-American War = 90,000+
Philippine–American War = 200,000 - 1,500,000
First World War = 16,500,000 - 65,000,000
Capitalist invasions of Russia 1918-22 = 14,000,000
First Sino-Japanese War = 36,000+
Second Sino-Japanese War = 6,000,000+
Nazi Germany's Holocaust, Porajmos, exterminations in Eastern Europe et cetera = 28,000,000
Other casualties in the Second World War = 34,000,000
Gulf War = between around 50,000 and 100,000
Vietnam War (including in Laos and Cambodia) = 3,000,000 - 10,000,000
Suharto's Terror in Indonesia = 1,200,000+
Pinochet's Junta = about 30,000 (3,197 in the September 11 coup itself)
Operation Condor = 60,000

*Famines that are comparable to the Great Soviet Famine and Chinese famines that make up the bulk of those who are claimed to have been killed by Communism.

All of these wars and atrocities were committed due to Capitalist aspirations; from Japan's first war with China over Korea's natural resources the Second Sino-Japanese War which was fought over control of China's raw material reserves and labour. The Imperialist expansion of the USA during the Spanish-American War (originally fought by the US due to the interference it was causing to US shipping) which lead to the suppression of the Philippine rebels and large civilian population who revolted against US exploitation. The Gulf War which was mostly fought over Kuwait and Iraq's oil reserves. The European conquest of the Americas was mostly motivated by the quest for a trade route to Asia, the acquiring of various products of the new world such as corn, tobacco, cotton, beaver hide et cetera, arable land and the mining of gold in several Native American inhabited lands (such as the Black Hills). The East Indian Company were just that, a company, and were motivated chiefly by capitalist enterprise. Nazi Germany were motivated chiefly with rebuilding Germany's economy and halting the spread of Communism to Western Europe (it was popular in Germany in the 1920s-30s). The Vietnamese War you are not arguing with so I needn't give reasoning for that. Suharto as mentioned before was specifically trying to purge his country of the "Communist menace". The September 11 coup was an overthrow of Allende's democratically elected Socialist government by pro-Capitalist and CIA backed members of the military under Augusto Pinochet, José Toribio Merino Castro, Gustavo Leigh Guzmán and César Mendoza Durán. Eventually Pinochet took over as supreme leader and "fixed" the economy by making 35% of the nation unemployed all in the name of Capitalism. Operation Condor was a programme of exterminating Socialist opposition in a network of fascist and ultra-conservative dictatorships. The greatest number of them were killed in Chile but also in many others such as Argentina and Bolivia.

As for Pinochet, the deaths aren't the thing I would focus on (there are worse things than death) as he also tortured between 150,000 and 400,000 people (of which 35,868 people came forward with testimony of their torture by the government). The CIA gave equipment and training for these "interrogations" which included using high-voltage electric charges applied to the genitalia of detainees; the rape of women by men and animals (including the insertion of rats into orifices); forcing victims to have sexual intercourse, in many cases with relatives; mock executions; witnessing the torture or execution of others; Russian roulette; beatings and sensory deprivations. A famous victim of Junta was Victor Jara, a famous singer-sonwriter who wrote the song "Venceramos!"; he wasn't a militant or political leader he just happened to be a popular leftist folk musician who happened to be a member of the (completely legal) Communist Party of Chile. Like many prominent supporters of the democratically elected moderate Socialist Dr. Salvador Allende, he was captured by the military and taken to the stadium that had been converted into a death camp. There the guards made an example of him; first by putting a pistol to his temple and playing a one sided game of Russian Roulette and then beat him breaking his ribs and then breaking his hands and laughing at him and telling him to try to play his songs. He then sang 'Venceramos' in spite of what they did to him; so they then cut out his tongue before beating him and then machine gunning him to death.
All of this is easily verifiable but of course didn't happen (*sarcasm*) as no one has ever been killed or tortured in the name of Capitalism!

I am not sure why I bothered with this post as it was tedious and you'll just find some nonsensical excuse to why none of this is connected to Communism, didn't happen or was justified. If you don't do this I'll be surprised and bow down to you but I shan't hold my breath.

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