MovieChat Forums > Little Shop of Horrors (1986) Discussion > Social constructs, and musical racism?

Social constructs, and musical racism?


I have to write an essay for my English class on the social construct, of the musical, so I would greatly appreciate any opinions of the topic you may have.

My professor suggested that I use the roles of Chiffon, Ronette, Crystal and the voice of Audrey 2, as my basis. For example: Although the mastermind which propels the movie forward, Audrey 2, is voiced by a “black ( for lack of a better term at this point in time)” male, the chorus girls which are “minor” characters, are the real reason behind the success of the movie. The “main” characters are played by “whites (once again used in this context for lack of a better term).
So what, I’m trying to get across, in a terrible fashion, is Do you think there was a racial reason for have the “Mean Green Mother from Outer Space” being voiced by a “black” male, or the Chorus girls also being “black” while the constant characters were white?

On a side note, I did not mean to offend anyone by using the words “black and white”, and if I did, my deepest regrets.

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Well Mr Mushnik was Jewish and he was pretty main as characters go, so I think that forgives it a little

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Mr. Mushnik is Greek, I believe.

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No, Moviewatcher42, I can assure you that Mushnik is Jewish. He speaks quite a bit of Yiddish in the (far superior) original stage version, and one of his musical numbers, "Mushnik and Son" (not filmed for the movie) is about as Jewish as a song can be, unless it's being performed by Fagin from "Oliver!"

As far as the O.P. is concerned, this is a STUPID idea for a thesis! No wonder Americans are so constitutionally incapable of growing up and getting over their ludicrous obsession with ethnicity! People should stop picking random pieces of DELIGHTFUL entertainment and desperately searching for racism!

Here's a thought: A person obsessed with racism will see it everywhere they look. It's unavoidable. And just because they see it, it doesn't mean it's there! The same is true of any form of bigotry or prejudice. Why not study that idea. Write about that. Don't turn a beloved and WHOLEY INNOCUOUS musical into yet another predictably specious argument that any ethic involvement (or lack thereof) must in some way equate to a racist slur.

Your professor is a moron! And he (like so many so-called 'educators') clearly needs to shake off his own prejudices and ignorance, lest he further contaminate and distort an innocent young mind!

Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

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Is it possible that these performers were selected for their roles because they were the best candidates? I thought the performances were superb. Why look for racism in everything?

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Well said, Slew, and far more eloquently and concisely than I managed!

However, in the original script the characters are clearly defined - which includes their ethnicity - not because of any racial prejudices (in either direction) but because it's the way they are. Anyone who wants to read anything more into it than that is just plain wrong.

When you create a new book, show, movie, or whatever, you design a cast of characters. Some of those characters may be ethnic in some way or other. They may be based on people you saw or knew when you were growing up. They may be based on what you read about in a history book. They may be based on a complete fantasy. The point is, however they came into being they are characters created to tell a story. Nothing more.

In recent years, and particularly in America, an obsession has developed for projecting one's own fears, phobias, and paranoia’s onto the created work of another. If you feel strongly about a particular 'issue' you look at a thing - any thing - and see that issue clearly reflected in it. Like racism. It doesn't mean it's there. It just means you see it there.

Like all those scary communists a few years back!

Nowadays, instead of seeing communists everywhere, you see racists, paedophiles, and terrorists.

Have fun with that!

I prefer to ignore all that BS and just enjoy a damn good musical. And even if (unlike Little Shop) it does have racist elements - so what? Bring it on! Racism does exist sometimes, and occasionally it's rewarding to view it from all angles. It is a part of the human experience. Get over it. My people did, after the death camps. They went on to found Hollywood - which now gets accused of racism. Funny, huh?

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Yes what a concept all the performers were indeed well selected for their respecitive roles. It is a dark comedy about a lonely flower shop in skid row New York. I've seen a high school and community theatre version of this moview and was thoroughly entertained. My favorite character is the dentist. He is so self-absorbed and evil. If I had a chance to play the dentist I would.

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Whoa, guys. It's not just Mr. Mushnik who is Jewish. Seymour is supposed to be Jewish too. In fact, this musical was written by Alan Menken & Howard Ashman (yes, of Disney fame) who are themselves both Jewish.


So, saying that this is an example of a "white musical" being racist against blacks is sort of off-base. I mean, yeah, Jews are "white" but I hardly think that there's a history of Jews being included with white protestants being racist against black people. Just sayin'.

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Obviously, you've never known an Orthodox Jew. And as a white Protestant married to a "man of color" I think your comment is appallingly stupid.
Why not educate yourself on issues before you make make idiotic blanket statements about people you clearly know nothing about?

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Judaism is a religion. Sammy Davis jr. Caucasion is a race.

suzycreamcheese RIP Heath Ledger 1979-2008

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Judaism is a religion, but Jewish is a race (who mostly practice Judaism as their religion).

I don't know what Sammy Davis Jr has to do with any of this. Was he a Jew?

I don't know why you addressed your comment to me (by clicking on the reply button on my post) - did I say something about Jews, Sammy Davis, or cream cheese in an earlier post?

I'm confused. It's late. Maybe when I've slept I'll be able to decipher your post.

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Judaism is a RELIGION - Semite is a RACE. "Jewish" is NOT a race - its a description of someone who practices Judaism. Semites can be Jews of Mediterranean extraction OR Arabs. Not all Jews OR Muslims are Semites.

And yes, Sammy Davis, Jr was a Jew - he converted.

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Just saw this post,

Just thought I should say that racism and bigotry IS everywhere. You don't have to be obsessed with it to experience it.

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But you DO have to be obsessed with it to "experience" it where it DOESN'T exist.

It's also lazy and inaccurate to say racism and bigotry is everywhere. Lazy because by making such sweeping generalizations you effectively wipe out any possibility of an alternative perspective - and we may as well just give up now and nuke the whole damn planet! Inaccurate because it patently isn't the case.

Not only are racism and bigotry NOT everywhere, but there is one particular section of society in which people of ALL walks of life have typically found a welcoming and un-bigoted home...

THEATRE!

(And before anyone brings up the fact that women were for a long time banned from performing on stage, I would remind you that it was not the theatre establishment that banned them, but the government of the time.)

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I was a drama major in college and I assure that theatre is very "white washed". there was only 1 other black student in the entire theatre department.

The fact is as my professors once taught me...Hollywood does not create art. It creates a product to be sold to the masses. Casting agents are notoriously "race conscious" They gave us phrases like can you be more "ghetto black" or can you be "blacker", or my "try with a puerto rican or mexican accent and rock your neck"

Casters look at everything from height, weight, color of skin, tone, inflection, and accent. They are trying to sell you something and because they are often white, they sell what they know.

Western Theatre is hard on people of color. Its difficult for them to gain roles because so many of the musicals were written with whites in the leads. Very few black actors or Latino actors get lead roles on the good ol' whiteway. When it comes to Shakespeare even less. Unless its Othello. (Lets not forget Sir Olvier in "Black Face")

The fact is that America is still afraid of color and only people who have lived privileged lives where they have never encountered being treated different because of the color of their skin can look at the world and say "why is everyone obsessed with race?"

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Yeah, and there's even MORE Jewish humor with Mushnik in the original, non-musical Roger Corman movie.

In fact, Jewish humor pervades the movie (which is quite different in many ways from the stage musical, in particular with character names--and who lives and dies). We actually SEE Mrs. Shiva, in a running gag...every time she comes into the shop she's bawling her eyes out over some relative who's just kicked the bucket.

(In the Rifftrax for Corman's LSOH, after Mrs. Shiva says, "Stop all this shouting!", Mike comes back with, "I can hardly hear myself be a stereotype!")

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I think all the main characters are meant to be Jewish. They certainly are in the Roger Corman movie. I always assumed that the inhabitants of Skid Row at the time would have mostly been either African-American or Eastern European Jews. I never really thought there was anything deeper to it. I suppose it could be argued that Audrey II learned English from listening to the staff and customers in the shop.

www.amazon.co.uk/Adam-Greenwood/e/B00A681FH8
www.amazon.com/Adam-Greenwood/e/B00A681FH8

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I don't know about the racial elements, but what about the irony of Capitalism turning out to be the incubator of the "deadly threat" the prologue warns about as the United States is busy trying to contain Communism around the world?

Maybe examine the unintended consequences of the Cold War; the urban decay and poverty at home which allowed the enemy to "suface from the seemingly most innocent and unlikely of places?"

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Racism is such a difficult subject in any discussion. Is it racism that Audrey II is black? After all, he is written as a "lean green mother, from outterspace." Can you imagine a voice or anyone as cool as Levi Stubbs from the Four Tops? Is it racism to construct a black voice as this image? I think it of it not as racism but an acknowledges that amazing sound that Stubbs is able to pull off. If this is due to his race then perhaps we shouldn't look at it as racism but look at it as similar to the "black is beautiful" movement found in the 60s. Acknowledge the difference but admire what he brings to the table.

And let's not forget skid row. The song depict the diversity of the slums. The depression, the angst, the hopelessness is shared by all creeds and cultures. Together they are united in poverty.

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I fully agree w/ you. I read just the subject line before going to work yesterday & spent some time thinking over it. Thank God I don't need to think much to do my job. LOL

The only thought that kept coming to me was about the chorus trio. I'm VERY glad to see this wasn't an angry thread because the trio reminded me of Motown's girl groups. I wasn't born til '78, but my son (who's 3) & I will occasionally listen to the Supremes & Temptations. Good music & talent come from every age, genre, & race.

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I hate to say it, but if there were no black characters at all, and Audrey II were voiced by a skinny white dude, somebody would see racism in it as well.

You can inject racism into anything.

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Audrey II has been voiced by white people many times, but they still sing in a black style voice, because of the way the score is written.

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I recommend you tie it in with a discussion about Mr. Fantastic, as he would be needed to handle such a large stretch...

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Hey thanks everyone for your ideas and what not.. but I didn't even pick this topic by choice, I had to draw it out of a hat... so it wasn't my idea.

I prefer to watch musicals based on entertainment value anyways... but thanks all!

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Well you can't say that the singers don't have a starring role, but they do. The movie wouldn't even be half as good without with the singers. They transistion the plot points. Imagine the movie without them see how good it would be. The Plant is the main star (Black voice), the Singers may have more screen time than most of the actors (black women). not only are they in screens with all the main players, but they have there own screens as well. I am a black woman and I don't see the racism.

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I always thought the races just fit with the style of music (think dreamgirls for the urchins). I think I remember hearing that the musical was meant to be a bit of a spoof of other popular musicals...but can't remember the source. Couldn't imagine Audrey II having a different voice! That mean green mother kicks ass!

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I don't think (to whoever said this) that this is a stupid idea for a thesis. I had to do Media Studies coursework on racial stereotypes in james Bond films. It's not that different.

However, I dont think, to the OP, that Little SHop is a very good example for whatever it is that you're doing. Yes, there are significant racial differences between some of the characters, but I'm pretty sure that is just to suit the style of 'doo-wop' music used in the play. Audrey II's songs are kind of jazzy souley songs, and need to be sung in that way. The guy who voiced the plant in London's West End recently was white, I think. But he sang the songs the same way.

Put away those fiery biscuits...

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I've also seen this show played where one or two of the chorus girls were white... I agree, they were looking for people who could carry the songs that these characters sing, and the people they chose happen to be the ones who best suited what they were doing.

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The real reason that the trio are normally cast black is because they are named after three 1960's pop trio's each consisting of three black female singers.

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Audrey II is a black voiced and appearing character which eats the vast majority of the white cast.

There is a reading in there somewhere.

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Crystal, Chiffon, and Ronnette are black because they are a pastiche on '60s girl groups -- like the Supremes, the Crystals, and the Chiffons, all of whom were black. Their music is written in that style and the characters' being black (as well as their matching hairstyles and dresses) serves to establish the time period the show takes place in.

And the Audrey II is voiced by a basso-profundo black man because it's funny. I've seen productions of the show where they try and take it the opposite way and make the plant a squeaky white dude and it just doesn't work. Not only does it not fit the music, there's no malice. The Audrey II is evil, pure and simple. But for that little plant puppet to open its mouth and boom 'FEED ME' in a deep bass voice is funny.

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My husband says Twoey is getting back at them for slavery. XD

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First of all, Mushnik is not Greek, he's Hungarian, in homage to The Shop Around the Corner (note the reference to O Chichonya) and the Three Fates played by Ronette Chiffon and Crystal are not minor characters, in Greek plays they are the key characters because they represent the Gods while the mortals are minor. And, they are, as mlnreplyer125000 says, direct references to actual famous Motown girl groups. Levi Stubbs of the Four Tops is the perfect person to do the plant, not just because he "sounds cool" but because much of the music in the play is an homage to the music of Motown. That, and a jive-talking plant from outer space is much more interesting than one that sounds like a robot. Others have mentioned that Seymour clearly seems modeled after Jews, which are minorities in every country that they reside (except Israel) and who often were not allowed to star in their own shows because they were too "ethnic" -- as was the case with Dick Van Dyke, created by Carl Reiner. That said, a nebbish guy who experiences what Seymour experiences is good comedy, as is a dumb blonde who gets beat up by a bad boy modeled after Elvis and B-movie teenage misfits, who were white. If you want to talk about race and films, considering Hollywood's willingness to put anything onto celluloid that will make a buck, perhaps your time would be put to better use focusing on audience demographics than on racism.

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THANK YOU. I was pulled into this thread and began wondering if anyone would catch the fact that the chorus girls were in essence a Greek Chorus and therefore not a "minor" but in fact ESSENTIAL part of the play/film, following a tradition older than dirt.

Phew. That said... Just to echo what others have said and to voice my own opinion... It's a FUN MUSICAL, people. Why dig for nastiness in it? Heck, let's not forget that it was based on a B-Movie from the sixties (that likely nobody would remember if every DVD release of it didn't hawk Jack Nicholson like he was the star).

And just to make a point back to the genius who originated this assignment (not the OP, but his/her teacher)... By that logic, would films with a primarily African-American cast be racist against Caucasians? How about films where whites play the bad guys? Sheesh... (I may get flamed for that, but meh. I consider it a valid point. Sue me.)

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