MovieChat Forums > Jean de Florette (1987) Discussion > Why was Cesar not told re Jean? [SPOILER...

Why was Cesar not told re Jean? [SPOILER!]


At the beginning, when Cesar writes to Florette, only to be told in a letter from her friend that she recently died, and that her son Jean would inherit the farm, why did this friend not tell him that Jean was in fact also his son? Surely this friend is the same one that turns up at the end of Manon des Sources (in the churchyard scene) and says it's a "tragedy" that he never knew Jean was his son? (I can't remember this character's name, but I'm sure it's the same woman.)

reply

[deleted]

This was probably answered before, but that post has been deleted.

Yes, that's the same friend, Delphine aka Grafinette. She didn't say anything because she thought César had rejected Florette, very callously, by failing to respond to Florette's letter. She stays after Ugolin's funeral to confront César about it. Only after she accepts his statement that he never received the letter does she say it's a tragedy.

Edward

reply

sub_atomic has been posting in a couple of other threads saying this is not correct, that according to the book, Grafinette and Delphine are two different people. I'm still not sure if it explains how Delphine knew about Florette's pregnancy.

Edward

reply

Delphine knew because Florette confided in her. Delphine was older by at least a decade, so Florette probably looked up to her. Delphine said she handed the postman the letter herself, because Florette didn't want anyone in the town to know. Based on Graffignette's innocent letter to Cesar early in the first film, it's likely even Florette's best friend did not know that Jean was Cesar's son.

Of course, there is no direct evidence within the two films that Graffignette and Delphine have not been combined into one character. I can understand why viewers might draw that conclusion because Delphine knows a terrible secret about Florette. Having read the book, I think the film director has kept Graffignette and Delphine as two separate people.


---
Obscure movie quote

reply

Thanks. Yes, certainly many things get elided in films that are clarified in books, and I can see how it fits now that you've given me the background. Of course in this case it was a matter of the original film being expanded into a novel which was then remade into another movie ... I'd like to see the original, but it's very hard to find. I think I found a copy on a European shopping site, but the shipping cost put me off. Would be very interesting to see how this point was handled in 1952 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0044883/).

Edward

reply

Well, the original film was based on an old Provencal legend which author Marcel Pagnol heard often growing up in Aubagne.

The original "Manon des Sources" and it's sequel "Ugolin" can be purchased from www.marcel-pagnol.com, although it doesn't look like they ship to the USA. And there are no English subtitles, of course.

Here is a clip in which Ugolin professes his love to Manon:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8410e_manon-des-sources_shortfilms


---
Obscure movie quote

reply

Thanks for the links. They do ship to the US -- you just have to remember that the "real" name of the country is "Etats-Unis". But ouch -- 54 euros, plus 30 for shipping, total $107. That's even more than what I passed up before. Perhaps I should start scanning eBay ... they don't mention anything about region code, so hopefully it's unrestricted.

Interesting clip. If the DVD has no subtitles, then where did the French subtitles in the clip come from? Enquiring minds want to know. I can read the French subtitles easily enough (most of them), but not fast enough to watch the movie too. The existence of the subtitles implies that there might be a transcription of them somewhere. I could probably pick up a lot of the dialog if I watched it several times, but a transcript would help me a lot.

Berri certainly gives Manon a more magical quality. One similarity is that in both movies, Manon is dressed and coiffed in a manner that wouldn't last five minutes running around in those rocks and maquis vegetation.

Edward

reply

If the DVD has no subtitles, then where did the French subtitles in the clip come from?

I wondered the same thing. They look like bitmap subs, which implies that they came from a DVD source. They're certainly not exact, more a modern Parisian French translation of the antique Provencal dialect they're speaking. I've been working on translating these subs, with a plan to eventually write English subtitles for both movies and create my own DVD set. I did my own translation of Berri's remakes, because the available English subs leave a lot to be desired.

Here is my translation of the above clip. It could use some work in a few places, but it shows clearly how different this scene is from the 1986 version.

UGOLIN: I must tell you something serious!

MANON: Let me go!

U: Funny how you're afraid of me. Even when you were little, I wanted to sit you on my lap, but you never wanted. Now you are sensible. Understand that I am a friend. I loaned money to your father.

M: I know, my brother was sick.

U: Lots of money!

M: 21,000 francs.

U: Almost, plus interest. For me, it was a lot. I had it. It was the legacy of my poor uncle, the Cigalier. (Cigalier = a member of the French organization La Cigale.)

M: You have an uncle who loved cicadas? (cigale = cicadas)

U: I understand! He had been a soldier in Africa, so he fried cicadas and ate them. A handful on the stove, they're very good. Understand that this money, I have to get back.

M: Of course, Les Romarins, you liked it.

U: Oh yes, I liked it. It's not for you to criticize me. If you saw how well I've arranged it. I redid the roof, all new tiles. I redid the doors, the shutters. I tamed the wild vine. I... I watered it, fumigated it... it rises almost to the roof. It's so beautiful, Le Papet thought I was going to marry! Why not? What's nice are the carnations. They're still cuttings, but in three months, they'll be beauties. Those graceful flowers. And it brings money. You know how I profited, last year?

M: It's none of my business.

U: "It's none of my business." It may be a litte of your business. 630,000 francs. And I'm still a beginner! And all this money, I have returned to the plantation. I'm about to more than double. Maybe a million and a half, even two.

M: Good for you.

U: It's to make you see that the farm is not completely abandoned! Your mother and you, what have you done?

M: Certainly not a million and a half.

U: And yet, I was ripped off. Because carnations sell in bunches with a pretty paper around them. Me, naturally, I don't know. I sell them in bundles like wood, then they pay me less.

M: I am very sorry!

U: Making the bunches is a woman's job. So you, if you long for the farm, if you want to come back with your mother, you could help me.

M: Ah, I understand why you came here. You need servants!

U: No, no! Do not take it like that, no. If you want, you won't be a servant.

M: I will what?

U: You will be the boss. You will command and I will love you. Your mother will do nothing except the cooking. On returning, I spoke to the priest and the mayor. And whatever people say, I do not care. Even if you are a witch, I take you as you are. A million and a half this year.

M: You? I should marry you?

U: Perfectly fine with me! What's so unusual about it? You're from here, like me. Even more than me! You're an animal, like a field mouse or sparrow. You want to go to the city? It's not true.

M: What do you know?

U: Come on, you don't even know how to cross the street! Your mother is crazy. What will you do? While at home... your home, our home... she would live among the flowers and recover. The flowers are very good for the insane.

M: Go sniff your own, it will do you good.

U: Why say these stupid things? You think I'm crazy? There's one thing that bothers me. Because I want a kiss. Yes, I want it all the time. All the time.

M: Beware! There is still blood on this stick.

U: Do not be afraid, Manon! I'll walk more! I love you, it's the truth! I love you.

M: That makes me sick!

U: That can't be true! (I can't make out this sentence.) You have whims, like your goats. Have me, it's for good. I love you! It is I who shouts it in the valley.

M: Don't do it anymore, it scares me.

U: It makes me feel good, I can't help it. You took my heart long ago. It was at Les Escaoupres, after the big storm. I was hiding for thrushes, I saw you swimming in the pool of rain. You were 13, you were naked! I left to avoid a crime.

M: It's disgusting to watch little girls.

U: It was for thrushes, not on purpose!

M: Old pig!

U: That's not true! I'm not old! I'm 39. That's it, from a good household. And nobody to eat with. My grandfather is dead, my grandmother is dead. My mother hanged herself, my father was hanged before the war. Nobody! Le Papet is my uncle. He's rich. He'll leave it to me because he loves me. And soon, Le Papet will die. We have his house and a million carnations for you! Yes, it's for you, dammit! Because I love you.

M: It's not me who replies, it's an echo.

U: Tell me something. (?) What would make you happy?

M: Trim your mustache. After that, we'll see.

U: What a great idea! Why didn't you say that earlier? I'll cut my mustache! Tomorrow is the water festival, I'll have more. You'll see me in my Sunday best. You've never seen me with a martingale. You'll have to look a good while to recognize me.

M: If you change it, it will suit you!

U: When you see me, you'll answer me right away. It's agreed, you'll answer me tomorrow?

M: Not so fast! When the carnations have blossomed.

U: Another good idea. It will be prettier!

M: Especially, when you see me, do not speak to me.

U: We must keep our secret. I'll say nothing to anyone. Goodbye, my love! I run to water your millions, and after I'll cut my mustache! I love you!

It's interesting to see a much more talkative Manon in this version. She's a real chatterbox compared to Emmanuelle Béart!

reply

Hmm. Search Youtube for manon des sources 1952 and the first two hits are for the 1952 movie. One is the same clip you linked, though for me it played a lot more smoothly on Youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eEhKc_acQ8

The other clip is from where Manon and Bernard meet. Unfortunately the resolution is very poor. But what's interesting is that it has English subtitles!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpdAqTdpEsA

Edward

reply

Thanks for that link, Edward.

One day, I'd love to see a Criterion box set that includes the 1952 and 1986 versions. Like they did with "Floating Weeds" and "Rules of the Game". And maybe they can finally fix the awful color grading applied to the recent re-release and restore the clouds that got lost from the contrast-boosting. I've thought about learning After Effects just so I can fix it for myself.

Also, I srongly recommend that any fan of these films read the novels. They are fantastic. Rarely have I seen a film that lives up to the book as I have here. There are stories in the book that didn't make it into the film, but the film has a visual power that the book can't match. That's why you need both!


---
Obscure movie quote

reply

Are the original DVDs better in their color? Not that I could tell on my TV, which seems to display oversaturated colors without any help from the DVD. I do sometimes watch on my computer, where the color is better. When I went to buy the DVD, I saw lots of the singles (the two movies in separate boxes) being sold from Korea, apparently in pan-and-scan (the descriptions on eBay are uniformly ambiguous, often saying "widescreen 4:3"), apparently the earlier release.

Do you recommend the English translation, or the original French, or both? I'd love to read it in French for the sound of the language, but it would take me about ten times as long ... I read Le Père Goriot, and Vol de Nuit, and some others, in college, but all short novels and I was actively studying French and that was over forty years ago ...

Edward

reply

The original DVDs have the correct color palette, and you can see the clouds in the sky during the daytime scenes. They are a bit muted compared to the current release, but much more natural and with a greater range of color variation. However, the discs suffer from a lot of compression artifacts and the Region 1 NTSC conversion was poorly handled.

The new DVDs and Blu-Rays were digitally color-corrected to give everything a yellow and brown tint, I guess because a lot of American period films use this color scheme (which all started with Godfather II). It's really unfortunate when compared to the original because the films look almost monochromatic at times. They boosted the contrast to deepen the blacks and brighten the whites, which means that in many shots the sky has become totally white; obliterating the pale blue sky and clouds. If you put on the recent release, and watch the scene where Le Papet and Galinette visit Pique-Bouffigue's spring for the first time, the trees against the sky behind them are a perfect example of the damage done to the "remaster". By blowing-out the sky, most of the thin twigs at the tops of the trees have been smeared out of existence. The Blu-Rays were also subject to indiscriminate noise reduction which removed almost all the grain. (Grain is good!) The aspect ratio is off too.

Do not buy any discs from Korea. They are poor transfers of the original DVDs, with even worse compression.

Unfortunately, there has yet to be a decent transfer of these films in any region. Even the French Pathé and Renne releases have the same problems. (I've bought these films 3 different times: US, French, Korea). You'd think for such famous films, they'd do things properly.

Here are some screenshot comparisons of the DVD releases (the third comparison down shows you the tree tops against the sky):
http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/dvdcompare/jeandeflorette.htm


As for the book (really 2 books but sold typically together in one volume), the English translation by W.E. van Heyningen is quite good. Perhaps a little prosaic in places, although I haven't compared it to the French edition to see if that was Pagnol's original style. I read it shortly after seeing the films, and couldn't put it down. I will say watching the films after reading the book is a revelatory experience. You will find, however, that the English subtitles are missing a lot compared to the book, which inspired me to spend about 6 months translating the films with a set of French subtitles, the English novels, and a critical ear.


---
Obscure movie quote

reply

Thanks for all the info. Just wanted to say I haven't forgotten (and still have this thread open in the browser) but other things have pushed themselves to higher priority status for a while.

Cheers,

Edward

reply

Cesar wrote to Graffignette, which is a nickname given to Florette's best friend, Marie d'Hortense. The woman at the end of the second film is Delphine, an older woman who moved to Marseille many years before.

Graffignette did not know that Jean was Cesar's son. Florette chose to keep this a secret from everyone but Delphine.


---
Obscure movie quote

reply