Who is really playing the end duel? (Eugenes Part) - Crossroads (1986) Discussion

[–] Holomatrix 19 years ago

I'm not sure now.
At first i thought it was Steve Vai (i read somewhere and was told that it was Vai on several occasions). Although saying that, i've just found a tab on Ultimate Guitar of Euguene's Trick Bag by Ry Cooder here for the Guitar Pro 4 software here: http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/tabs/r/ry_cooder/eugenes_trick_bag_guitar_pro.htm

There's also a fabled tale i once heard of how Joe Satriani was once rated the fastest guitarist in the world, he taught Steve Vai, who then took his title.
Whether that is true as well is simply speculation (aka *beep* knows).

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[–] swayzesDoucheBag 18 years ago

That's quite a fabled tale. Aesop is barfing in his grave. Anyways, what you state is untrue - it was Jesus who taught Steve Vai. Read the bible, you idiot.

SwayzeIsADoucheBag

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[–] zygimantas 18 years ago

Patrick Swayze is my cousin and he asked me to ask you who you are, so he can hire someone to kick your butt.

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[–] dazednconfuseddude 18 years ago

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

if thats a serious response...

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[–] operaofsilence 18 years ago

Satriani taught Vai, Hammet, guitarists from Primus and the counting crows. Vai admits himeself satriani taught him. Steve Vai basically does all guitar parts in the duel.
Steve Vai-Hellbent guitar
Shuggie Otis-guitar on Fried Chicken
Sonny Terry-harmonica
Jim Celtner-drums
Jorge Claderon-bass
Ry Cooder-Slide guitar
"I do all the gutiars except the slide stuff, that's Ry. Essentially I had to beat myself in the last movement. Some people think that's actually Ralph Macchio playing the guitar, He's a celluloid hero, not a rock star, baby!"
Taken from his album The elusive light and sound vol 1.

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[–] joycey_666 18 years ago

I did hear once that the deleted dual between Vai and the Lost Soul is in fact a dual between Vai and Satch (Satriani) and that it was for the soul of his friends. The backing of the dual was that if you sit with your guitar at night at a crossroads in mississippi (or however you spell it) and there is a full moon the devil will appear and grant you incredible guitar playing power... then take your life at 27. Eric Clapton is rumored to have done this and cheated it, i dunno it's superstition but that was the background to the lost soul scene - Vai duelling for his pals soul... against his teacher

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[–] j_mann_nsa 18 years ago

The original 'sell-your suld to the devil' myth actually relates to Nicolo Paganini (1782-1840), the Classical/Romantic violinist.

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[–] Snapscape 16 years ago

Vai did all the electric tracks in this movie. Originally someone else was going to stand in for Vai at the end, but they decided to use Steve to make it more believable.

Joe taught Steve as well as a few other guitarists. Steve is Joe's prize student since he turned out to be the best Joe has ever taught.

Steve is faster than Joe but Joe is more of a technical artist. Both are still considered the best guitarists in the world.

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] stillbwell 8 years ago

I think Yngwie & (Paul) Gilbert were both faster than Vai & Satriani, but the latter two played with more emotion. Especially Satriani, who sometimes reminded me of a shredding David Gilmour.

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[–] Jenesis 19 years ago

Vai played most of it, with Ry Cooder playing some of the slide stuff.

"I read it was Ralph"

I must admit he does a pretty decent miming job, except for his right hand.

................
(¯`· ._.» º Jen º «._.·´¯)

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[–] sadly_sober 19 years ago

mmm i read in steve vai's archive c.d about how funny he found it that people thought ralph was playing and said that 'he's a silcon star, not a rock star'.
Ry cooder played the slide guitar, Steve Vai played his parts and paganini's 5th a.k.a eugenes trick bag.
In the archive c.d their's also a duel that happened before that got cut between vai and a lost soul. =)

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] crheath2001 18 years ago

It's Steve Vai. It is actually available on several Guitar Tab magazines, advertised as "Eugene's Trick Bag by Steve Vai".
They never mentioned this because it's pretty bad publicity revealing the guy who played the villain did both parts.

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[–] dopeuser8 18 years ago

Well I'm not saying 100% I know for a fact anything, but....
I do remember my brother had a guitar magazine, from I can't remember excactly when, around 1986-1989, and it had the tabs for the duel, and it came with a little flimsy record of the duel in the back page of the magazine. And I'm 100% sure it said "Crossroads Dual: Steve Vai & Ry Cooder". Whether or not this was true, or hype for the movie or whatever, that is what it said.
Then again I also remember the end credits for Kickboxer say "Tong Po as Himself", so you gotta take it with a grain of salt.

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[–] KidEgo 18 years ago

This is all fact....
Steve Vai plays all his parts - obviously.
Ry Cooder plays the parts during the duel that Ralph mimes. Ralph was taught to mine by someone who's name escapes me.

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[–] shrapnel_-1 18 years ago

I've heard that Ralph learned all his parts well, so he certainly seems to be playing the pieces himself, and most probably did, BUT Ry Cooder is the man who recorded all the tracks for Eugene's character in the movie. I think the question most of us would like to know is, does Macchio still play the guitar after this movie?

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] lacymongydandy 18 years ago

My boyfriend said he read somewhere that Yngwie Malmsteen had something to do with all of this. Either he was the one playing against Vai or someone thought Ralph was portraying Malmsteen or something like that. Any thoughts on whether that could possibly be true?

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] muhammad_hayes 18 years ago

Butler's part is(Steve Vai) Eugene's part is (Stevie Ray Vaughn)

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[–] SW_Jones 18 years ago

Ry Cooder did all the slide work. Period.

Steve Vai did all the fast work, including the undistorted Paganini piece that Ralph mimed that 'won' the duel. Listen to Vai 'mess it up' when he tries to play it. The style of Vai visibly playing it and Ralph miming it are audibly identical, save the distortion levels (and the fact that Vai may have used fingers for Ralph's part, and a pick for his own 'screw up').

The only place in the Paganini part Ry Cooder comes in is at the very end on the final note, where a definite triad chord with a bottom note added in was played by Eugene, an impossible chord for one guitarist to do the way it was done.

Malmsteen had nothing to do with any of it. Vai plays against himself when it comes to the final, fast, Paganini piece.

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[–] j_mann_nsa 18 years ago

It's not paganini's 24th - it is a variation of Mozarts Turkish March.

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[–] Zipp98 18 years ago

It is Paganini's 5th in A Minor not paganini's 24th or Mozarts Turkish March

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[–] zedmelon 18 years ago

You're almost recalling something you read. :)

A scene much nearer the beginning features the Turkish March, as Eugene plays for his class. He ends the traditional piece with a blues lick, prompting his teacher to chide "Most people approach Mozart with respect." I believe it was Eliott Fisk who actually played the track, but it may have been Arlen Roth.

Cheesh. Early 90s at best. I need to find that DVD as well.

edit: Aargh! I should've read a bit lower. William Kanengiser, that's right. He tracked the Mozart piece. Vai still did all the non-blues stuff at the end (including the last section of Eugene's half of the duel).

Mom says my .sig can beat up your .sig.

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[–] alluhevari 18 years ago

Gf bran,that is exactly right. I asked this from Stevie in EVO Expierience,which was back then at Helsinki,before the show done in Nosturi. He told it exactly like this,just didn't mention Yngwie.

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[–] SDN-2 18 years ago

According to Arlen Roth in a couple of interviews I've read (who coached Ralph Macchio) it was like this...

Ry Cooder scored the movie and played the slide parts ONLY in the duel.
Arlen Roth played all Macchio's parts elsewhere in the movie.
Steve Vai played Jack Butler's parts.
Bill Kanengiser played all the classical parts, including the Paganini part of the duel.

I go with this version of events because (a) he was there, and is apparently pretty annoyed that everyone credits Ry Cooder for his work. And (b) the classical part of the duel sounds to me very much like classical finger technique, a skill which Vai doesn't posess as far as I'm aware - at least I've never heard a recording of him playing with a straight classical technique.

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[–] SW_Jones 18 years ago

Not long after the movie gained its cult-like fame among musicians, Guitar World published (if you remember these) in the 1980s an issue with a 'floppy' record that could be played on a record player of the full duel, unedited. In the accompanying article in the issue, it specifically states who played what. Arlen Roth was just Macchio's guitar coach. He just taught him how to make the playing look real. Roth played on nothing in the duel.

Vai played Jack Butler's parts and played against himself on the Paganini piece. Period. Ry Cooder did all the slide work.

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[–] cliff_em_all3000 18 years ago

Except for vais slide work on bad horsie ;)

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[–] driverhasabomb 18 years ago

Bill Kanengiser did indeed play all the classical parts. He plays in the Los Angelos Guitar Quartet. Yngwie and SRV obviously had absolutely nothing to do with this movie.

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[–] wesolemiss1 18 years ago

This is as said by Vai himself.. i think he would know and why would he lie about a damn movie? He said, "I recorded ralph's part on the dual and I played my "screw up" live. Ry Cooder did the highest note on the triad chord at the end while I played the bass notes."

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[–] SDN-2 18 years ago

Here's the story from Arlen Roth...

''I worked on the music for Crossroads from day one.
First of all, i wrote and played all of Macchio's parts
right from the beginning, including teaching him 4 day's
a week, for 2 months even before we started filming.
Almost all of his parts were played by me, and improvised
on the spot, because i knew the ''vocabulary'' I had given
him on the guitar, and what he could ''fake'' accurately.

I directed the guitar scenes, and the original ''duel'' at the
end was musically differnt. It was a slide guitar duel between
myself and Ry Cooder (made much more sense than
this heavy metal nonsense!), it was real blues! Cooder was also
supposed to play the evil part on screen. When he found out
he'd been dropped by Walter Hill, he really got pissed off!!
So, in walked Vai, and then we re-recorded the ending. They
actively pursued him, it wasen't some receptionist's ''find''.

We were all dead-set against this musical destruction of the film,
but Walter Hill and Tim Zinneman had no idea what they were doing
about music. That's why Walter let me sit in the Director's chair
when the guitar scene's were shot!.

The blues band and bar scene were actual re-creation's of what i did
in real life while we were on location in Mississippi! Ralph saw me
do that, and said he wanted to do that in the film! He chose ''Landslide'',
an original piece he play's when standing at the ''Crossroads!''

The end sequence actually features the playing of Vai (sped up sometime's)
Bill Kanengiser (classical) Ry Cooder and me. Cooder only play's two part's
for ralph in the movie. The rest is all me, and the classical is played by
Kanengiser (who has also made 2 instructional videos for my company hot lick's Video!)

After coaching Ralph and directing the guitar scenes for Crossraod's, I was
approached by oliver Stone to do the same for ''The Doors'' movie. I turned
it down though, the money was lousy, and Frank Whaley didn't want to bother
with learning the guitar for his part of playing Robbie Krieger!!''

Interesting reading. If and when Crossroads becomes available on DVD on this side of the Atlantic I'll pick it up and study that last scene in detail, but I guess I'll never know for sure while the people who were there tell such different stories. The only thing I know for certain is that no-one posting in this thread was there, so none of us can say definitively what the truth is.

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[–] SDN-2 18 years ago

Just so happens that Crossroads was on ITV4 here in the UK last night. Being New Year's Eve I recorded it whilst out partying but watched it this afternoon whilst nursing my hangover. I've started another thread on the fact that the end duel seemed to be cut, but on the debate of who played what...

Ok, I watched the end sequence a few times over and taking into account Arlen Roth's comments I think I've formed my opinion on who played what. I don't think there's any question that Vai played his own parts and that Cooder did the slide parts in the duel. Where I have a qustion mark is the classical portion of Ralph Macchio's part. If you listen carefully there are two distinct styles and tones in that one stretch.

It starts off with some arpeggios using a cleaner Telecaster tone and the technique is definitely that of a classical player - you can hear where high and low strings are played simultaneously, and the attack of a finger and nail is quite distinctive. My guess is that part is Kanengiser. The tone then suddenly changes to a more saturated distortion, not unlike the kind of sound Vai had at the time, but still a Telecaster and the attack is more even with less 'pop', so seems to be a plectrum. There's one descending double stop passage that is very Vai-ish, the sort of thing you'd hear all over Flex-Able, so I'm pretty sure that it's him playing that part.

So, and this can only ever be a guess, I reckon Macchio's duel-winning part is a combination of Kanengiser and Vai.

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[–] tennisdude2332 18 years ago

Steve Vai played the whole end duel part. Yes even the slide part. Just because you "heard" a difference between the classical part and the slide parts does not mean it is someone else. It is called studio editing. Most likely Vai played the slide parts with one guitar and the regular parts with another. It is as simple as that. Cooder played everything else in the movie (except the very classical piece at the start of the film). Kanengiser did not play the arpeggios. You took way to much time to analyze that. It is just done with a pick (no sweep picking).

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[–] sktralternative 18 years ago

Ry - all the slide parts
Kanengiser - all the classical parts which are the ones where Eugene is in his room and practicing the 5th Caprice on his nylon then switching to his steel string and his performance when he was at the school playing with the reprise of the turkish march then ending it in a bluesy way
Vai - played i believe the whole damn duel.

that is how i believe it is,

btw i have an interesting copy of eugene's trick bag, i know its not the one from the elusive light and sound vol. 1 from vai because that one flows into it with all the sound of the audience and stuff. the one i have is a straight copy of just guitar no background audience yelling or anything. anyone know where its from?

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[–] SDN-2 18 years ago

I don't normally get involved in this kind of pointless online debate, life's too short and all that, but I've got a few minutes so I'll indulge myself just this once...

Steve Vai played the whole end duel part. Yes even the slide part. Just because you "heard" a difference between the classical part and the slide parts does not mean it is someone else. It is called studio editing.

I said I heard a difference between the two sections of the final classical sequence that Eugene plays to win the contest. I think it's generally accepted that Cooder played the slide parts at the end, not Vai, regardless of who played the classical parts. Also, having a Higher National Diploma in music technology, and having worked in several studios, I think I've a pretty good idea what "studio editing" is.

Cooder played everything else in the movie (except the very classical piece at the start of the film).

If you look a few posts above you'll see that Arlen Roth has rather a lot to say about that.

Kanengiser did not play the arpeggios. You took way to much time to analyze that. It is just done with a pick (no sweep picking).

I took ten minutes on a hung-over Sunday afternoon to analyse that, which I don't think is really very much in the grand scheme of things. My ears tell me the first section of the classical part was done with fingers. My ears could be wrong, and the fact is I don't know who played what. Given the different accounts from those who were there the best any of us can do is speculate. I know one thing for certain - you don't know either, and the same goes for everyone else on this thread. I've read a lot of opinions, but very few facts.

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[–] firefrost79 18 years ago

See, this is the reason why I'd be afraid to learn guitar. I enjoy mixing hard-dance on decks, but the amount of arguments that you see people having on various websites along the lines of "no, its this filter", or "yes, it's that effects-box" just bores the fluck out of me. Just enjoy the film, for Christ's sake!

Incidentally, one thing I will say is thanks to the techies on this thread for identifying that piece as Paganini - I still find myself mentally humming the electric version from this film even now. Fantastic guitar-work - whoever the hell did what part when, it's the kind of awesome skill U just wish would be bestowed on U.

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