MovieChat Forums > Witness (1985) Discussion > Nude scene completely out of place.

Nude scene completely out of place.



I'm from Ohio, which has the largest Amish population in the U.S., and while I am by no means an expert on the Amish, I cannot imagine an Amish woman exposing herself like that. The scene should have been left out, because there's a scene later on that is much more accurate. Amish women believe that their hair is their glory and should only be revealed to their husbands, which is why they wear bonnets, and this is touched upon towards the end of the movie when the camera shows her bonnet on the counter, and then she runs out to Book. This is a much more accurate presentation of her love for Book. The nude scene was just exploitive.

reply

I agree with you entirely. To those who might say that it's not supposed to be a documentary, I say that the nude scene is artistically inappropriate. Sure, the movies require suspension of disbelief, but only up to a point.

reply

[deleted]

Amish women think their hair is their glory? I am not intimately familiar with Amish culture, but this sort of thought doesn't seem congruous with the importance they place on plainness and humility. The reason many religious people wear hats is to cover their heads before God. It's an act of humility, like bowing or kneeling during prayer. This is why men and women both cover their heads. But you can still have your hair down with a hat on, so I was under the assumption the hair is kept up because not only does it keep the hair out of one's work, but it's also more plain that way. But I'm no expert, so perhaps you're right.

reply

Umm, hun Pennsylvania has the largest population of Amish, I know, I'm from PA. I live in Somerset County, born and raised, which is the second biggest population of Amish in the US, the first being of course is Lancaster. But, yes you are right, an Amish woman would never expose herself, in front of anyone, except her husband, but then again, I've never seen Amish have sex, thankfully, so I wouldn't know if that would even be 100% correct...lol Amish women wear bonnets, not just because of their hair being their glory and all, but as a form of obedience to their husbands, aka a devotional cap, some mennonites wear the same thing.

"All my friends are dead
All my friends are dead"
Turbonegro

reply

I posted this elsewhere but here it goes again. It does not matter what her cultural or religious beliefs were, Rachel had strong feelings for John and I believe she wanted to make love with him. She was unable to articulate it, so she bathed where he could see her. She exposed herself to him, hoping he would come to her. Look at her face, it was pratically screaming for him to come to her. John looked, knew what she wanted. Look at his face, he's thinking "Should I or should I hold back." You could see how Rachel was hurt when he turned away. Even the next day when he tried to explain why, she looked like she wanted to tell him, but again could not. There is so much in this film that is expressed in silent scenes. I just saw it again last night and I am still blown away by its sheer brilliance. "Out of Africa" beat this out for the Oscar. OOA is a pretty good movie, but "Witness" is a film for the ages.

reply

Well said. Amish or Muslims or Christian nuns aren't exempt from feelings of lust. This scene was one of my favourites in the film, for the looks exchanged and the conflicting feelings between characters.

I know you are, you said you are, but what am I?

reply

You obviously haven't met real Amish, have you? I've known Amish my whole life. I grew up, and still live in Somerset County Pennsylvania, which has the second highest population of Amish in the US, some who I'm personally am decsended from. Amish, women would never, ever, do what she did! Mark my words, ask anyone else who has known them for as long as I have. Yeah, they are known to do things that even I wouldn't do. But an Amish woman exposing herself in front of an "Englischer"? Would never happen! They put that scene in for the glamore of it, it's appealing, it's taboo. Those are exactly why they would put that in, cause it's not every going to happen, and if it would, she would be shunned. I hope you're familiar with the shunning process.

"All my friends are dead
All my friends are dead"
Turbonegro

reply

I get what you're saying about the Amish in general, but to say that no Amish person would ever do that? You don't think there has ever been an Amish person who maybe had a secret fling? Or cheated on their spouse? Or maybe just wanted to? As rare as it is, I'm positive that somewhere at sometime it has happened. I mean, they're only human.

reply

Sure. Amish have even become minor drug lords in Lancaster.

reply

Good response. Much of the discussion here presumes
that Amish people cannot or do not have temptations.
They are human beings, so they will have temptations.
That there is a practice of shunning fellow Amish leads
me to believe that sometimes Amish people, as do others,
succumb to those temptations.

Rachel seems to be struggling with her lust, as is
Book.

reply

Rachel seems to be struggling with her lust, as is
Book.


If you have, or have access to, the DVD with the documentary on the making of Witness, you might be interested in what Kelly McGillis has to say about that scene. From her point of view, there was no sexual element on her side. She was not deliberately exposing herself, she had waited until late to bathe and Harrison Ford's character came in uninvited. Her interpretation of the scene was that *he* responded in some sexual way, but that she did not, and he was the one who was ashamed and turned away. Her approximate words were, "It was his shame, it was not her shame."

Director Peter Weir had a slightly different take but I'd have to watch the doc again to accurately rephrase it. In any case, Book's appearance was (in context) serendipitous. He saw the light on in the house and went in, but did not realize she was bathing until he got there.

reply

Spoiler alert for them spoil sports out there!
It felt off but life is like that, even though she is a widow, she can't marry outside her religion more or less have sex with an Englishman.

Uh baby U 4got 2 pull out. 9 months later, can U pull this ucking baby outta me, do that @ least!

reply

In regard to cheez_it...
Ohio has the largest Amish population, Pennsylvania is second.
I was surprised, always thought it was Pennsylvania, but a recent documentary on Ohio stated the facts.

reply

"Well, them Ohio Amish must be different." ;)
-------------------

I happen to think that the nude scene was crucial because it symbolized the dramatic energy and complexity of the Rachel and John plot line.

Do you recall that her first instinct was to turn around and cover herself in embarrassment? This is the Amish Rachel.

Yet, she pauses, turns around and exposes herself to John. And in so doing, becomes Rachel the woman. It's an act of great courage to communicate to John without any ambiguity, her regard and intentions for him and the life change she is willing to make.

She is not a young woman yearning to see the rest of the world. She is willing to this for John. In this sense, John is the chicken. Rachel put the ball in his court and he decides to leave without her.

In some cultures, this risk of life in pursuit of love is the very reason and essence of living. But, maybe not so much in our American culture.

.

reply

"Well, them Ohio Amish must be different." ;)

Could someone please explain to me why the guy that said that was SO upset?

What we have here is a failure to give a *beep*

reply

Well the only real thing he mentioned was that it was bad for the town's tourism which he depends on as a shop owner. We might assume that maybe he didn't see what the bullies had been doing before hand and therefore thought it was completely unjustified. I think the real reason might just be that he was a plot device so that Book could be found after the man talked to the cops- his anger did seem a bit much.

reply

Well the only real thing he mentioned was that it was bad for the town's tourism which he depends on as a shop owner.

The man was a shop owner?

What we have here is a failure to give a *beep*

reply

I might be remembering this completely wrong, but I thought he came out of a nearby store when he saw the altercation. And with his lines of how something like that had never happened there and that it was bad for tourism in my mind says that, 1) He's a local who has lived there a long time and 2) Has some sort of investment in the tourism of the town. I guess I just put it together and assumed he was a store owner coming out of his own store.

reply

No! This is the best topless scene in film history - Not in a gratuitous or exploitative way, so much is said through there looks, expressions, the tension building to that moment. You want a scene that does it just for the sake of seeing some tit watch the one in Hitman with the Bond chick from Quantum of solace. Hot yes, but not artistic in any way.

reply

Found the original script at http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Witness.html. Of this scene, it says:

Rachel hesitates for a moment – and in that moment she makes
a choice.

Slowly she turns, to face him, without shame, meeting his
eyes.

And for a moment she attempts something: a look, a flash of
eve... a lovely, heartbreakingly innocent effort to become,
for an instant, a woman of Book's world.
<big snip>
RACHEL
The other night... when you saw me
after my bath... I... I tried to
look as I thought you would want a
woman to look.
(sadly... but with a
slight, proud lift
of chin)
I am sorry... that I did not.

She holds for an instant, then turns and walks off.

BOOK

Looking after her. A face full of loss.

--
So I agree; I think the scene was crucial. I also applaud the fact that the film did *not* include a love-making scene which the script mentions after the encounter at the bird-house - evn though it was implied. I think the film demonstrated a remarkably even hand and always erred away from the gratuitous.

reply

[deleted]

The nude scene was tender, sensitive and risky! It signifies that as much as Book has come to appreciate the culture and Rachel's way of life she too has moved in his direction - his shyness, his masculinity and his obvious appreciation of her as a person and as a woman. So....was the nude scene exploitative? Not in the context of the exchanges of feelings throughout the entire movie. The question that the scene was asking was whether or not either character could move to the side of the other, Book chose not answer for obvious reasons!

reply

I have nothing against nudity in films, but I have to agree that it shouldn't have been done in this movie. It actually hurt the film, imo.

reply

[deleted]

Maybe you don't know what the power of the flesh means. Just see the face of Rachel she was taking the shower, she was totally attracted to John Book and when women love anymore cares...

reply

As far as Rachel having desires, remember, she is a widow with a child! She knows sex but hasn't had any for awhile!

reply

I think part of the reason she is different is she was married before and her husband is dead. She probably is less shy, and you could see from the reaction of the town, she was not the norm. She was an exception to the rule. Don't you think some amish would have sex outside of marriage secretly? I just think it is unfair to say its not what most amish women would do, because she isn't just the stereotype

reply