How the hell did we lose Viet Nam?
Why didn't Rambo just go nuts like this in the first place back in '68?
sharequote from John Rambo in First Blood
"I did what I had to do to win! But somebody wouldn't let us win"
MovieChat Forums > Rambo: First Blood Part II (1985) Discussion > How the hell did we lose Viet Nam?
Didn't WE pull out of it?
"Well I Won't back Down...No I Won't Back Down..."
Too bad Doc Manhattan wasn't around...
'That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.'
Rambo did what he had to do to win, and we would have won if we had let our soldiers fight because he clearly had the upper hand. The problem was we didn't do what we had to do to win. One simple major fact for losing is because we couldn't bomb North Vietnam, which is where this film takes place. We couldn't bomb the place because right above it on the map is China. We wouldn't want to have China pissed off at us and come after us because of a north vietnam bombing.
sharewe couldnt win because of the morons in the government and the maggots would protest every chance they got the government didn't care. they where trying to cover their own asses. kinda like iraq if we let the military do their job we wouldnt be there this long.
shareSeeing that 'saving' Vietnam was touted as being the key to preventing "the domino effect" (ie watching all of asia then become communist) which never happened anyway, yours is a dumbass comment to make.
All the technology and chemical warfare & mass death against a much less sophisticated side, and the amercian losers got their ass kicked, and lost favour with much of the world... Iraq is no different - a phony ass war for reasons that either didnt exist and/or kept changing, to force a system of government that the locals didnt want, and again, america loses and leaves with its tail between its legs. Its great watching a bully take a slap.
This movie made me laugh all the way through. Such a big cry baby wa wa flick, i wanted to call for a wahmbulance.
"Its great watching a bully take a slap."
Very nice smartass.
And when Vietnam was all under socialist rule millions more perish in collective farms and re-education centers.
An old post, but I have to chuckle at this. Millions perish in farms and re-educations centers? Sound like you're the one whose been in a re-education center. It's called US public education.
I believe the US military caused the deaths of over 2 millions civilians in Vietnam that we know of, not counting the deaths in subsequent years from Agent Orange birth defects and cancer.
Besides, if it was so horrible to live in a socialist Vietnam, why does it even exist today? Everyone would've tried to leave, or there would've been another revolution already.
Obviously, "winning" would have meant killing every vietnamese. Some rube named Hitler tried the same thing with a different demographic. And like Hitler, some would have cheered such decision (from afar of course)
share[deleted]
"Besides, if it was so horrible to live in a socialist Vietnam, why does it even exist today? Everyone would've tried to leave, or there would've been another revolution already. "
Look up Doi Moi and your question should be answered.
Remember the Boat People?Cambodia, Laos and S Vietnam fell at same time so domino effect came true.
share"Besides, if it was so horrible to live in a socialist Vietnam, why does it even exist today? Everyone would've tried to leave, or there would've been another revolution already."
You do realize than it took the people of the USSR 90 years before they could get free from that nightmare.
"Besides, if it was so horrible to live in a socialist Vietnam, why does it even exist today? Everyone would've tried to leave, or there would've been another revolution already."
Nguyễn STOP sending your shills here. We know you and your corrupt, totalitarian ass sucks and none of your shills can change our opinion. You should have died in the Vietnam war but guess God has reserved a more miserable death for you. Bastard!
My uncle wasn't a bully. He was an American Soldier who fought and died in Vietnam. He was one of the nicest most caring men/husband/father you could ever meet. In talking with my grandparents, my aunt, my cousins, my parents and everyone who knew him you would figure that out. 2 of my best friends (more like brothers) are over in Iraq. One of them is on his second tour. Think about what you're saying before you say it you sadistic excuse for a human being. Its great watching a bully take a slap? Really? Keep laughing and sipping back on your latte. Keep making comments from a distance without having to worry about being killed for them. You're the maggot at the airport. I definitely don't agree with everything my gov't does... but I'm an American through and through and will do whatever it takes to protect my family, my home, my values and my pricipals. I thank God every day for my brothers who are over there right now. And you better damn well believe that if heard you say that in person... I would be in your face in a matter of seconds. You can disagree on gov't policies and question motives all you want, I have no problem with that. But as soon as you make a completely disrespectful comment like that... I draw the line. But whatever, all you're gonna do is sit behind your computer screen and sarcastically make a comment back about this... and I really don't care. Just try to show a little respect, that's all I ask.
shareSorry about your uncle. I hope your friends come home safe. Tell them I said thank you.
I respect your UNCLE and your FRIENDS.. people seem to have lost any perspective on that.. "if you don't support the war, you don't support our troops".. I call BULL%*% on that notion.. The Troops are doing their jobs, sadly and are put in a position in an organization that doesn't allow one to question that much of the orders they receive.. although any CIVILIAN organization doing the same thing there would be lawsuits and god knows what else.
I support those that would defend our country.. but we as a country have gotten too far into playing GOD so to speak.. to make other county's how we WANT THEM.. rather than letting them find their own way. Vietnam, and I can only guess as I wasn't born then and won't.. was born under the fear of the Red Menace when Communism was still just on the mind of everyone.. and Russians were everywhere.. and we wanted to stop the spread of communism.
This idea is still going on today as most wars don't seem to be about fixing somehing as much as sprouting our idealogies over someone else's. And really that's just a problem with it comes to holding a moral upperhand. which we really don't have..
anyway.. you don't have to support the laws to respect those who enforce the laws.. there's the BODY and the ones who carry out the policies. Just the way it is.. I hope all the troops do get home safely and get any HELP that they need (although that seems so unlikely under a system that seems to be shortchanging those whom we hold to protect us.. but that's a whole other can of worms).
Vietnam failed for many many reasons.. but the whole idea of the people actually being a force.. against the war. the idea of a FORCED draft being peeled over (which was another big issue), there was a big cultural change in the country at the time that lots of issues played into it.. not JUST this or that.. but not doing what needs to be done is definitely one of the biggest.
''He was one of the nicest most caring men/husband/father you could ever meet''
I hope that he was drafted because ''nice'' people are not usually meant to go to kill others.
''Its great watching a bully take a slap?''
''Keep making comments from a distance without having to worry about being killed for them.''
Would you like to visit England so I can say pretty much the same thing to your face?
''but I'm an American through and through and will do whatever it takes to protect my family, my home, my values and my pricipals.''
AMERICA! YEAH! HUUUUUUHHHHH!
''I thank God every day for my brothers who are over there right now.''
Now you are bringing ''god'' into a discussion in which religion is not relevant? I would block you if I was prissier.
''I would be in your face in a matter of seconds. You can disagree on gov't policies and question motives all you want, I have no problem with that''
He was talking about the USA as a political entity, dummbass. Which means he was questioning policies and motives. The USA as a political entity has a tendency to bully other nations, especially weak ones. It is for this reason that they cannot see the hypocrisy of patrolling the world demanding an end to nuclear programs elsewhere when they have actually dropped the A-Bomb... twice.
'' I would be in your face in a matter of seconds.''
Ah, an internet hard man. Get a life.
Yes it is. I fully concur with that poster.
If you hate Jesus Christ and are 100% proud of it copy this and make it your signature!
Really funny coming from a Brit! Your country has a much longer history of being a bully. Now, England simply does not have the might to be a bully (except maybe when it comes to the tiny island of Ireland) so it has become America's little bitch, providing a supporting role in these idiotic wars.
shareThe difference with Brits is that they don't like hearing about their dirty history and they know it's wrong, they are willing to oppose their own government, and are not mindless idiots who wave flags and believe their country is the best and that 'God' looks down upon them.
shareYou have obviously been listening to too much American Country music.
Your admiration for the Brits is undeserved. The Brits have been a part of almost every conflict the USA has.
I would say my memory is not what it used to be. But I don't remember what my memory used to be.
Why should people respect your dumbass family? Just a bunch of morons who aren't educated enough to get a real job so they join the army, get handed a rifle and told to shoot whichever brown people Dubya or whichever scumbag president points them at. And you trust the government completely because you are naive and not prone to thinking for yourselves. And your idiotic justification is that you are defending your people and principles which is clearly complete *beep* Going to carpet bomb Vietnam or Iraq has nothing to do with defending Americans. All you achieved in Iraq was to murder Sadam and destroy the delicate balance of the entire region and you created ISIS. You also made Rumsfeld and a bunch of other scumbags into multi millionaires, and a few thousand jarheads threw away their lives like a bunch of mindless lemmings.
And you make it so easy for them. Just generation after generation of brainwashed flag waving idiots, willing to give their lives and take the lives of whoever for something you know nothing about and are incapable of even understanding. And you think your imaginary god in the sky looks favorably upon this. Why wouldn't he? America is his favorite country right!?
This. Absolutely 100% this.
Many character flaws are shared by peoples the world over, as collective nations.
The USA, however, has some relatively unique and seriously frightening "patriotism" complex which they seem to believe is their greatest strength, though the contrary is true.
Someone has very cleverly equated, in their minds, everything that they love about themselves, their lives and their country with their flag. They've then equated the flag to mindless obedience to their government. Having the children repeat "I pledge allegience to the flag of the USA" every single day probably plays a role in that.
So now, anytime someone waves a US flag or sings the anthem as a performance in competition, they win. Anytime someone says "the greatest country on earth!" in a speech, it's successful. Anytime someone says "we have to kill the brown people 10,000 miles away on the other side of the world, in order to protect our freedoms and way of life here" they get on board, no questions asked.
Personally, I find it highly disturbing.
And yes... I'm british. I'm complicit in just as many war crimes and evils, etc... but I'm not happy about it. You won't catch me waving our flag and screaming about how whatever my government does is brilliant.. and when my friends are enlisted, you won't see me shouting at anti-war strangers, telling them they're fools for not understanding that my friends, lackies for corporate interest, are actually the sole defenders of a state under attack and that they'd be dead if my friends weren't overseas massacring some poor natives somewhere.
Grow up, americans. You are not your country.
Hahahahahaahahahaha....
share[deleted]
Te reason why we lost Vietnam was because of liberal commits like Walter cronckite going on tv and saying we had lost or were loosing. From that point on it became a political war and it was game over. History shows that we weren't loosing until ole Walter said those lies on national tv.
Harry Reid tried to pull this same bullshiz on the Iraqi war back in 2006 by saying the war is lost. Wtf?!
The thing was people have more outlets to media today and saw through his political bullshiz.
The USA won EVERY major land battle the the Vietnamese kept coming. They spent 20 years fighting against any other nation having domination over them. Communism, capitalism, socialism, fascism, feudalism, they really didn't care as much as keeping a foreign nation from controlling them. 55,000 American soldiers died and around 2 million of them died and they kept coming.
shareIt's pretty hard to win a war when you kill 10 of the enemy for every soldier lost and it does no good. The idea of a war of attrition is flawed in this type of encounter. You can't completely wipe people out with conventional weapons. The idea is to kill the enemy until they either cannot fight any longer or they quit. Well, when there is no infrastructure to disrupt, no base of operations to attack...it's hard to do that because the enemy remains combat effective, despite the number of casualties.
The bombings were intended to kill thousands in a shot...but we hadn't counted on the difficulties of the terrain and the tunnel systems.
By the time you got around to killing everyone fighting for the north, you'd already be fighting the next generation of fighters. You can't fight a war over idealogy and win, not without a concrete goal to capture in a militaristic sense or without the will to literally obliterate the enemy, which isn't really war...just genocide.
"When you're pushed, killing's as easy as breathing."
They're like Rocky, no matter how hard you knock them down, they have enough heart to stand up against a mighty and oppressive foe.
Global Warming, it's a personal decision innit? - Nigel Tufnel
Oh it's quite simple really - on one hand you have tough jungle dwelling freedom fighters who survive on a bowl of rice & a squirrel - on the other you have Obese cheeseburger munching simpletons flown in first class with their Tv's & Air Con units spending all day playing video games & listening to Heavy Metal music whilst flicking each others arses with towels in the showers. mmm ?
That which does not Kill me makes me Stranger . . .
LOL!!! Nice one Richimorton, very funny view!
shareWow ! Another sense of Humour on IMDB ! I salute you Sir !
That which does not Kill me makes me Stranger . . .
[deleted]
Rambo is a very fictional Hollywood creation . I realize you yanks only study History & Geography at the movie theater , but this is just ridiculous .
That which does not Kill me makes me Stranger . . .
Yeah we get it--you're British and you feel the need to get your labias in a twist over the existence of America. That role has been played to death well before uber-intelligent and attractive Europeans like you decided the best thing to stick it to America would be to be an obnoxious twat on an internet message forum. Go you!
The only thing ridiculous is how people like you have been able to survive so long without getting killed from your stupidity.
by the way funny thing is that I knew you were British before I even checked your profile. How pathetic is that? People like you who run around looking for Americans to stir up childish fights with, whine about "yanks" are so shallow and predictable it's pathetic.
ooo bit touchy aint we ? Perhaps you are one of the obese cheeseburger munching simpletons of which i speak mmm ?
Firstly , my responses are either positive or negative in equal measure depending on the post - sometimes i have the initiative to start a thread all of my own . I do not 'run around looking for Americans' , rather i object to people arrogantly shouting ignorance , which , coincidently , happens to be N.Americans 99% of the time ! Yes you are easy to spot , and , conversely , so are us Brits , so i take your recognition as a compliment .
Europeans , THE WORLD , have better basic education than you lot , yet for some bizarre reason you think you are always right , rather like children .
"you're British and you feel the need to get your labias in a twist over the existence of America" ...... Wow - you're not Israeli & i'm not Palestinian (look it up , it's not in the U.S.) so what sort of insecure paranoia prompted that remark i really don't know.
Feel free to argue with me about anything - i don't mind eating junk food occasionally.
That which does not Kill me makes me Stranger . . .
''by the way funny thing is that I knew you were British before I even checked your profile. How pathetic is that? People like you who run around looking for Americans to stir up childish fights with, whine about "yanks" are so shallow and predictable it's pathetic.''
Shame that the USA wouldn't exist without English and then British colonialism. Shame you do not have your own traditional culture. Oh well. Why don't you just run along and bully Mexicans for wanting to immigrate into lands that you stole from them?
If you hate Jesus Christ and are 100% proud of it copy this and make it your signature!
Because US didn't know how to fight people like that.
For example, in USSR when there were men in woods they simply took their wives and children and deported them to Siberia to build their infrastructure and/or die. Plus, for those who didn't resist they built factories, roads, infrastructure, made sure that there were no unemployment and the quality of life was better + put loyal locals in government who called the resistance fighters "enemies of progress" and "bandits".
So, you got a freedom fighter sitting in some mudhole, knowing that your wife and child will probably be deported to Siberia and watching your friends getting new and better houses and flats, their first cars, good jobs and wondering "what the *beep* I am fighting for??? It's not that the people will live better if we win and some capitalist *beep* comes to power and grabs all the ritches"
Of course, communist ideology is wrong and the economy simply does not function in the long term but in short term communism is very effective- after the Stalin's death, there were no pointless killings based on faint suspicion only. If you followed the rules, you had a job, you had a flat and your life improved every day. Of course, it lasted only some 15 years... and, as the economic system worsened, people of course, again started to be rebellious and USSR colapsed.
The USA was never defeated militarily. We didn't support our troops and we didn't stay to finish it. We were there 8 years and we didn't accomplish anything. We should have stayed and finished what we started. As Ronald Reagan said, we didn't lose the Vietnam war. We just weren't allowed to win it.
shareRemember what happened during the Korean War when we invaded the North? China came in and whooped our asses and pushed us to the brink of defeat. Only a flanking invasion, Inchon, took the Chinese off-guard and stabilized things along the border we have now. Fast forward 15 years and China now had nukes. An invasion of North Vietnam was never in the cards.
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Mythos
"Wage slavery" is a mental condition that only you can cure.
[deleted]
You are wrong. Incheon invasion had happened BEFORE chinese involved themselves into war. And the reason why chinks ,,whooped our asses and pushed us to the brink of defeat'' is really simple (Their soviet counterparts did the same with Germans 9 years ago at Moscow. Cold Climate and Numerical superiority)
shareThe argument used here that America lost in Vietnam because the army was undermined by traitors at home is a rather chilling one to the historicaly literate,being exactly the same as that of the "Stab in the Back" legend invented by the Nazi's to explain Germany's defeat in World War One.It is equally wrong.America lost in Vietnam because it was seen as an occupying power,propping up a corrupt Puppet regime.The Vietnamese people were willing to endure what ever sacrifices it took to defeat the invader,which of course,they eventualy did.
Gordon P. Clarkson
Wasn't the support of the Communist bloc --esp. the SU\Russia -- the reason behind Vietnams ability to resist ?
The same can be said for Afghanistan's ability to resist Russia - the SU or Israel's ability to resist the Arab league.
In all these cases, the "little nation" had the support of a Super Power.
This is not to deny the locals ability to unite and resist - a critical factor too. But, Japan also had fanatical resistance but was eventually worn down, out produced, run out of resources, etc.
Who kept Vietnam supplied with guns and bullets and etc ?
The insurgency in Iraq doesn't have the support of a superpower & yet they keep causing problems and blowing stuff up around our troops.
Japan surrendered in WWII & cooperated because their emperor told them to. If he had called upon his people to "fight the invaders to the death" the USA would have either had to:
A: Conventionally invade Japan, causing millions of deaths on both sides.
B: Nuke every major city in Japan & turn the whole place in a giant smoldering heap of nuclear rubble.
By far the most insightful post on why America lost in Vietnam. Sure, there were major strategic errors in the military end of things, but the main error was to grossly underestimate the Vietnamese as people and their history of repelling foreign invasion for millenia, right from the US President to the soldiers in the field (the latter at least in the beginning).
In the end, American soldiers in Vietnam were fighting for NOTHING, if fighting at all.
There´s an iconic TV clip when a GI tells a reporter "They say we´re fighting for something...I guess". The later years in Vietnam were plagued by laziness, drug abuse, desertion. And I'm not demeaning those who went to war; but it would be silly not to recognize the historical, documented fact that with the draft-dodging situation at home, those who went to Vietnam did not want to fight a war no one believed in anymore.
That, in contrast with millions of people fighting to remove an uninvited guest out of their country and willing to endure ANYTHING, no matter the cost, as long as they achieved that.
"You really must be needing love...those cookies are from the Eisenhower administration"
OK, I will respond briefly this time.
The thought of there being an overwhelming united determination by every citizen in the South to kick the "invaders" out was false. There has been a historical division between Tonkin, Annam, and Cochinchina for centuries prior to even the French. Power shifted to and fro between ethnic empires often splitting the north from the south.
The 19th century finds the French exploiting these divisions as the Nyguen Dynasty secedes the south to the French and later losing the North as well. The French divide the country into the three states mentioned above. Each state with a different topology, economy, and even dialect. By the time of Independence in 1945 most people alive had not lived under a united Vietnam and did not have the same urgency as their vaunted political leaders.
During the French Indochina war 1945-1954, many Vietnamese fought for the National Vietnamese Army for the French against the Vietminh as part of the precursor nation to the Republic of Vietnam. When the French left the majority of the troops migrated to the new ARVN - Army of the Republic of Vietnam - and supported Ngo Dinh Diem's Republic of Vietnam. After the partition of the North and the South, up to 1 million French supporters/refugees moved to the south, while 1 hundred and forty thousand or so Vietminh moved north to live in communist controlled country. 60% of the 1 million Vietnamese catholics lived in the south under catholic president Diem.
In 1960, the insurgent group National Liberation Front was born. It being a "front" for multi-party legitimacy with the North running the agenda in the background. Northern "Regroupies" were sent from the North to stir up contention in the South, in the hopes of a southern insurgency. Those hopes never were realized in full as the Viet Cong always had North backing in supplies and troops.
So the issue with a southern insurgency that will fight to the death till they get what they want has mixed messages. There was a group who was coaxed by the north, but part of the southern republic that fought the United States and the ARVN for political liberation.
There were also those who believed in the right of the republic (mostly in the cities) and enjoyed the economic boost the US brought to the region. This loyalty was often tested by corruption of the revolving door of leaders, but for the most part never broke.
Then there were those in the middle who did not care about the politics and would follow anyone who could put food on the table. The Viet Cong, sadly targeted those in the middle folks with a campaign of fear, murder,torture and humiliation. These simple villagers supported the Viet Cong, not because they were on board with their politics, but they did not want to be killed. So they hid the Viet Cong, and lied to the American solders traipsing through the jungle looking for them. The Viet Cong's atrocities on civilians were so great, that I remember a historian saying that it rivaled or exceeded all of but a few of the terrorist campaigns in the last third of the century.
The bottom line is that the whole of the Indochina wars should have been avoided, and could have been peacefully dealt with in 1945. It was not, so years of confusing mess later, there were millions who now relied on American involvement in Vietnam. The West had built a dependent populace that had severely angered its Northern neighbor. When the North finally rolled into Saigon in 1975, they didn't say to all the citizens of the South "hey I have brought you liberation, and now we can be a peaceful united country. No, they slaughtered many and sent over 1 million to "Reducation camps". By the way the multi-Party front now called the PRG was quickly dissolved and everything was turned over to the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. So everybody but the Communist party lost and lost big. They outsmarted the West as people still believe today that the insurgency in the South was a universal popular uprising.
Once again just a thought off the top of my head.
That's a good, detailed and thorough analysis of the historical background and situation. Bravo, johanson17.
shareSince the end of World War II every enemy we fought has subscribed to this one and very powerful tatic against us: "Death by a 1000 slashes."
"I'm a vehemently anti-nuclear, paranoid mess, harbouring a strange obsession with radioactive sheep."
Because retarded politicians were running the war and hippies were ruining everything. America was stacking *beep* bodies by the thousands. But the media showed dead soldiers witch unfortunately happen every war but this time made it public scaring the people.
share