MovieChat Forums > Kiss of the Spider Woman (1985) Discussion > This aint no Brokeback...spoilers

This aint no Brokeback...spoilers

posted 15 years ago by sgraf_x
20 replies | jump to latest

I know I will prolly get flamed for saying this but this film was "bad" gay. But let me also say I really liked Brokeback Mountain. The problem I have with this one is that the characterisation of Molina seemed like a bad stereotype of a gay queen(as he also refers to himself). I guess I mean he was a real flamer. He was steeped in gayness and desperation(and not just desperate for Valentin but for the love of any man) which for me took away from any real affection that may have existed between him and Valentin.
Also Valentin did not appear to be the type of dude that would have had gay sex with a guy after such a short period of time and where there really seemed to be no great bond other than they were cellies. I guess for me it was just a far too underdeveloped relationship to have gone there. The relationship between them just didnt ring true and unlike Brokeback Mountain I found myself cringing at the implied sex scene which was presented here.

I am guessing the novel was probably better at developing this entire story moreso than a 2 hour film. It seems as if there was really good source material here but that it was difficult in adapting to the screen. I also feel they spent far too much time in the story-within-a-story world instead of focusing on what was most important which was developing the two main characters and their relationship.

I give 6/10

There is NO Gene for the Human Spirit.

[–] sdsungod 15 years ago

Yes, well stated. I also am surprised that you haven't been flamed (pun intended) by certain people, but I completely agree. First of all, my wife and I have several gay friends. None of them are cross dressers. The only cross dresser I know is straight, actually. When we were watching the movie, my wife kept saying "He (William Hurt) is so obviously straight, trying to play a flaming gay, he is totally over-doing it. Why couldn't they get a gay guy to play the gay man?" and I answered that there probably weren't any openly gay movie stars at the time, they were all still in the closet. The portrayal was a bit offensive to real life gay men who are not a bunch of sissy drag queens, I would imagine, since in real life every gay man I know is perfectly normal.

The worst part of it all is that Molina was in jail for child molestation. Gay people are NOT child molesters!!! Gay relationships, by definition, are between two CONSENTING ADULTS who both happen to be men. Adults! That minor detail is easily the most offensive and potentially hurtful stereotype in the film.

I haven't read the book, but it is stereotypes like that which lead to prejudice in our society, for example, Boy Scouts of America not allowing a gay man to be a boy scout leader because some idiots think gay men are child molesters, in part because of films like this that promote the stereotype!

"Enough of that technical talk, Foo!"

[–] queenienguyen277 11 years ago

Sorry for bringing up this debate again. I just couldn't stop myself. :)
I think u might have misunderstood the true nature of Molina here. He was not only homo, he was trans! Homo is just sex orientation , while Molina's case 's more of biology. He didn't feel right in his body. He was ashamed of it. He said he "would cut it" if he had the courage. He kept implying himself as "this girl" or "woman" , right? I have a trans bud too. Everything he does is very extravagant, because he wants to improve he is a real man. So I kinda understand Hurt's performance here.
As I've read in this film's trivia, Hurt was inspired to play "a woman trapped inside a man's body " and juggling on that, he did a great job. Fortunately for Hurt , Molina was trans , or else I believe he wouldn't have done such a excellent job.
For Julia's performance , I find it more convincing than in the book. I love the idea that he - being affected by the separation and the genuine love Molina had for him - decided to have sex with him than the idea that they became lovers in the book. It DOESN'T feel right at all.
I love love love the chemistry between them so much. I am not a gay fan at all, but I love this film so much.

Thank you for reading :) . Pardon for my English :d

[–] Hunk_O_Cheese 15 years ago

Oh don't worry, I agree 100% about the negative portrayal of gays in this movie. Might as well mention I'm gay, I was just offended by that overly effeminate, creepy, suave, and campy performance from William Hurt (He was terrific in History of Violence, so I forgive him). Raul Julia did what he could with the material, but I think performances and direction truly brought this down to a lackluster camp-fest.

5/10

"EAT IT! Eat it you sick, twisted f---!" - James Caan, Misery

[–] bedram793 15 years ago

LMAO, it was one of the best performances I have ever seen. Some gays really are like that, as I've seen some in my school. It wasn't a negative portrayal at all, and the fact that you thought it was is sad, considering that you said you are gay.

Yes, not all gays are like Hurt's character, but there are some that are, and I've seen plenty of them.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=38535521

[–] Hunk_O_Cheese 15 years ago

Hey Bedram793, I'm not one to get into arguments on internet boards, but that was a pretty dick thing to say. I say that I didn't think it was realistic (and I know some pretty flamboyant gay people out there, more so than Hurt) and Hurt's performance felt like a caricature. Then you use my homosexuality AGAINST me? So Jews are all supposed to love "Schindler's List"? Or all Indians are supposed to praise "Gandhi"? And if a gay disagrees with the portrayal of gays in "Milk", or "Brokeback Mountain", or "Spider Woman", are you therefore going to belittle them? I don't know whether or not you intended to be that hurtful, but you've definitely crossed the line.

My point is your comment was condescending, and I don't dig that.

"EAT IT! Eat it you sick, twisted f---!" - James Caan, Misery

[–] bedram793 14 years ago

What? I'm saying you being gay, you should know that there are some gays out there like Hurt's character. Not a caricature at all. It wasn't like an insult or anything. Not trying to belittle you at all, you are just trying to pick a fight where one can not be picked.

And I crossed no line, you are just being rather stupid. Almost everyone disagrees with you, and there is a reason Hurt won the Oscar. You felt it was a caricature, fine. But just because he was shown as flamboyant? Pretty bad critique there.

And I really don't care what you think of my comment, as you obviously took it the wrong way. It seems to me you didn't like the movie because you think the movie tried to show all gays are like Hurt's character (which you said was a negative portrayal, and I'm wondering why), which in no way at all tried to do, and then said it felt like a caricature just because his character was flamboyant as you said before.

And I said it was sad that you thought the portrayal was negative, because you being a homosexual, you should know there are actual people like Hurt's character, meaning it isn't a caricature.

Hope that clears it up.

http://atheistcomrades.ipbfree.com/index.php?&&CODE=00

[–] Hunk_O_Cheese 14 years ago

Woah woah dude chill the f--- out, this is what you said that offended me:

It wasn't a negative portrayal at all, and the fact that you thought it was is sad, considering that you said you are gay.

Also this while I'm at it:

And I said it was sad that you thought the portrayal was negative, because you being a homosexual, you should know there are actual people like Hurt's character, meaning it isn't a caricature.

The key word is "sad". You are sad that I, a gay, did not like the portrayal of a gay guy in the film. I found what you wrote condescending and said I was offended by what you wrote. What if all the gays lisped in this movie and I said "They're all lisping! it's a caricature", then you said "it's sad you don't know any gays that lisp, because you are gay." I know some gays lisp. I know they can be flamboyant. But Hurt was some freakish whimsical hybrid of what anyone from the deep South would portray as a gay man.

And I never said he was too "flamboyant", I said I thought the film was a pure camp-fest so I therefore didn't like it, and judging by your 2nd to last sentence you have no idea what bugged me about your original comment. There are people that naturally fit the caricature, and some people that exploit it. I felt Hurt's performance exploited it.

...Eh, I've already lost interest in this disagreement, and I doubt you'll know what point I'm trying to make anyway. Hope sometime you'll understand what I'm saying.

"EAT IT! Eat it you sick, twisted f---!" - James Caan, Misery

[–] bedram793 14 years ago

If anybody here needs to chill, it's you.

Also, judging by your original post, you seemed to hate the fact that he was flamboyant, and as you said, being flamboyant seems to be something what the deep South thinks of gay men. First of all, that doesn't mean there aren't people like that, and not sure how that makes it a caricature. Not sure what the hell you mean by he exploited it, but all I can tell you is that you missed the point of the film and also are very wrong on the performance, and many people would disagree with you about Hurt "exploiting" the caricature. It was a fantastic performance, but hey, everyone has their opinions I guess.

By the way, I meant it's "sad" because I thought a person like you would understand there are gays out there like that, and by your original comment, it seemed like you thought a person like that was a negative portrayal of gays. I don't see any other way why you think this is a caricature, because the film is in no way a camp-fest. Do you even know what that means? Did you watch the whole film? Camp-fest would be the last way I would describe this film.

But hey, you totally missed the entire point of the film, and that's a shame, because this was a fantastic movie. And even if Hurt played a gay guy that you say is the view of the deep South (which it isn't), then I can tell you there are people like that, and just because this film shows one of them doesn't mean it says that all gays are like that. And you obviously have never been in the South, because I live there (not a hillbilly American btw, I'm from Iran and just happen to live in the South, though this part of the state isn't as "southern" as people think) and I can tell you what people here think of gays is a lot different than this movie, and it's a shame that it is that way. I can just tell you it's a lot worse, and in no way is Hurt's performance like the way some people describe gay people here.

http://atheistcomrades.ipbfree.com/index.php?&&CODE=00

[–] bedram793 14 years ago

"The worst part of it all is that Molina was in jail for child molestation. Gay people are NOT child molesters!!! Gay relationships, by definition, are between two CONSENTING ADULTS who both happen to be men. Adults! That minor detail is easily the most offensive and potentially hurtful stereotype in the film."

BTW, to the person that wrote that, that doesn't mean gay people can't molest children. It just happened he molested a kid (or maybe he didn't)and just because he was gay doesn't mean all gay people are child molesters. Did you even watch the film before you criticized it? If Molina was straight, and he molested a kid, that wouldn't mean all straight people are child molesters, just like a gay person molesting a child doesn't mean all of them are child molesters.

http://atheistcomrades.ipbfree.com/index.php?&&CODE=00

[–] michelle_sheiman 11 years ago

Molina says he was arrested for "...a minor." That could mean, depending on laws wherever this movie takes place, that he had an affair with a 17 year old. I don't think we can jump to the conclusion that he was a child molestor because of that "minor" comment.

I am only half way through the movie, so maybe more about his arrest comes out later in the film; but so far I only see him as someone who got busted for being gay.

[–] Hunk_O_Cheese 14 years ago

Also, judging by your original post, you seemed to hate the fact that he was flamboyant, and as you said, being flamboyant seems to be something what the deep South thinks of gay men.

Something tells me you're reeeeally missing my point. But I'm done, I'd give a rebuttal but it's pointless. Glad you liked the movie.

"EAT IT! Eat it you sick, twisted f---!" - James Caan, Misery

[–] jedijackie 14 years ago

It baffles me when people come one these boards just to bash a movie. If you don't like a movie, if it's too gay or too straight for you, then why come on these boards to complain about it? I visit the boards of movies that intrigue me, that wow me. I tend to ignore those forums of movies, that in my opinion, suck. Now why do you do that?

If Hurt was too gay for you, fine. That's your opinion and your right. But why come on a fan board and bash a man's job. If I had to act gay, kiss a member of the same sex and wipe fake poop off a fellow adult human being's butt, I may not act the best either; yet I'm not an actor. Someone must have thought Hurt did a pretty bang up job; hence the Oscar.

Just don't bash a guy because you think he did sucky at his job, when these boards are for those to discuss a movie they obviously liked well enough to seek it out and have a discussion about it.

You don't see me going on the Transformers movie board and complaining about how lousy it was. No, that's just bad taste. How would you like it if you were in a book store reading the back of a book jacket, and some dude walked up to you and said, "Oh, stay away from that piece of crap! The character's are written terribly, the author was a twat, etc."?

Would tick you off, right?

[–] Hunk_O_Cheese 14 years ago

My god does no one understand what I'm saying? I'm not saying he acted too gay, just saying it was a combined portrayal of several negative gay stereotypes. And do you really want a film to have blind appraisal from everyone all around the board? Why can't the board have people who didn't like the film? Are they supposed to stay silent? Are they not allowed to discuss why they didn't like it?

This film won an oscar, I don't think it deserved the praise it got. I'm one opinion in a million. That's all. Just let it go.

"EAT IT! Eat it you sick, twisted f---!" - James Caan, Misery

[–] whittysinead 13 years ago

IMDB's biggest fault is people getting into fights...and it's usually down to where you put your commas and your full stops.

"To unpathed waters and undreamed shores"
Dreams, I promise you will be followed.

[–] 13 years ago

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[–] JackForrester 12 years ago

I agree with everything bedram793 said.
Don't know why some people are so touchy about the portrayal of gays on screen.
Some gays are flaming gays, some gays are child molesters, not all of them are cute and sensitive like the couple from Brokeback Mountain.
We get to see millions of movies with straight guys being shown as robbers, rapists, child molesters, killers, but when it's a gay guy, then it's homophobia?
I remember reading similar comments about William Friedkin's Cruising. The movie is a great adult thriller, and a lot of people call it homophobic just because it shows violent and promiscuous behavior between gay men. Guess what, some gay guys are exactly like that, just don't take it to the heart. A portrayal doesn't necessarily mean generalization.
Let's grow up and face real life.

Peace

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