Cuts to UK version


The UK version of this was cut to qualify for a 15 rating. The cuts were to shorten a scene where Kidstuff (Sammo Hung) breaks into a car, and also to remove a joke about rape.

Unfortunately passing it for an uncut 18 was not an available option because one of its classifications happened in the late 1990s, and BBFC policy regarding different versions at different categories states that any films certified after July 1994 should be given the same category in future classifications.

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It's my understanding that films can be re-classified when being released on different media, i.e. getting a new DVD release. I'm not sure if the 1994 clause still applies though, so maybe it does. Silly idea.

One point to note, this film was released by HKL with the car break in scene intact. I have one of those copies myself. Later releases now have the scene removed and finding a copy with the break in scene intact is hard.

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It's my understanding that films can be re-classified when being released on different media i.e. getting a new DVD release. I'm not sure if the 1994 clause still applies though, so maybe it does. Silly idea.

It's not actually to do with different media; until January 2004 all items classified after July 1994 had to get the same category as previous versions (if you look at the entry for Billy Madison on the BBFC website, it was classified PG with cuts in 1995 for cinema and also cut for PG in 1997 for video, and even for the 2002 DVD release, although guidelines and personnel had now changed since then, allowing one of the previous cuts to be waived, the other cuts were compulsory to keep the PG certificate as per the previous 1997 classification).

The reason the BBFC cited for this clause was to prevent customer and retailer confusion (e.g. picking up an inappropriate version for the intended audience, or the person behind the counter putting the wrong version in the sleeve). I had this sort of thing happen with The Mummy when there used to be a 12-rated cut version and the 15-rated uncut version; I picked up the sleeve for the latter, took it to the counter and the silly plank behind the counter put the 12-rated version in, and I insisted that he change it as it was clearly not the version I was intending to buy -- he just saw The Mummy and put the first disk that he came across in the sleeve, without checking that it was the correct version. To the best of my knowledge The Mummy is the only film of the 1994-2004 era to have different versions at different categories, and I don't know how it was allowed.

The change to the Different Versions At Different Categories policy made in January 2004 now do allow newer versions to be classified at a higher category. Provisos for the higher-rated new versions state that there must be a radical difference between the cover and previous version(s), that the newer ones must not be attractive to younger viewers, and that the wording must make it perfectly clear that it is a different version ('Special Edition' will not suffice, but wording like 'Uncut version' or 'Extended Cut' or 'Director's Cut' should be OK provided it's not too small). A good recent example of this is the two 007 films Goldeneye (was a cut 12, now rated an uncut 15 for the Ultimate Edition) and Tomorrow Never Dies (also previously 12 but now an uncut 15).

So we could, now, in theory, get an 18-rated version with the car-breaking and rape joke intact, but this would ultimately cost Hong Kong Legends because that would mean that the work would have to be reclassified and the artwork changed to make it vastly different from the previous version.

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[deleted]

True, but it's not the only film in existence that was cut to get a lower UK category and left some things not making sense. Trouble is, until such time as a distributor (HKL or someone else) is willing to allow an 18 certificate and allow the waiving of this cut (and the other one), there's not really anything anyone can really do. Unfortunately encouraging 15-year-olds to joke about a very serious bodily invasion of a member of the opposite sex is not really a good idea, so I very much doubt that the guidelines for 15 will relax to that extent anytime soon.

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Don't you just love our system. Mind you, I think most edits these days are done by the distributors themselves purely to get that lower rating. Or the other one is to make a few snips so that they can then release it to DVD with the line 'includes footage not seen in the cinema'. No, because you cut it out to make more sales. Thank goodness for the Internet and importing.

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Don't you just love our system. Mind you, I think most edits these days are done by the distributors themselves purely to get that lower rating

Yes, exactly; by getting a lower rating more people can pay to see it.

You might be pleased to know that, in more recent years, only a very small percentage of films have been cut for category; most of those that are tend to be sex works where the distributor has cut unsimulated sexual activity to get an 18 instead of an R18. Meanwhile many older works are being reclassified under newer guidelines and having previous cuts waived (the most notable ones this year are probably The Matrix and the controversial Death Wish, which in January was reclassified with an 18 certificate, but waiving all the previous BBFC cuts, so it's now uncut in the UK for the first time in 32 years).

Careful about importing certain titles, though; some footage from Hong Kong movies is illegal in the UK (e.g. any unsimulated animal cruelty that was deliberately orchestrated by the film-makers, or eroticised sexual violence).

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I hadn't noticed that the Matrix had been re-released uncut. What about the sound effects. Have they been turned up again as they were lowered in the original release in order to reduce their impact?

Careful about importing certain titles, though; some footage from Hong Kong movies is illegal in the UK (e.g. any unsimulated animal cruelty that was deliberately orchestrated by the film-makers, or eroticised sexual violence).


Yeah, I was aware of that, and some I have ordered did contain some animal cruelty, usually with snakes and chickens (but no worse than has been released in the UK), but one did have a cat being strangled (Magic Cop). I've never had any problems with HMC yet. I don't think any of my packages have ever been inspected. What I find odd is that both Mr.Vampire and Encounters of the Spooky Kind were released in the UK with scenes of animals being killed - snakes being cut open and a chicken beheaded - and both were passed with 15 ratings, whereas Eastern Condors was cut because of a snake being killed in order to get an 18. What's the difference under the terms of the Cinematograph Films (Animals) Act 1937?

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What I find odd is that both Mr.Vampire and Encounters of the Spooky Kind were released in the UK with scenes of animals being killed - snakes being cut open and a chicken beheaded - and both were passed with 15 ratings, whereas Eastern Condors was cut because of a snake being killed in order to get an 18. What's the difference under the terms of the Cinematograph Films (Animals) Act 1937?
The difference is that the Act does not forbid animal killing, it forbids animal cruelty. The snake in Mr Vampire looked to me like it was already dead (it didn't seem to be moving to me), so would not have suffered, so would not contravene the Act. The beheaded chicken was, it seems, a swift and humane death where it would have had little or no chance to suffer; this, too, does not contravene the Act, and if the BBFC were ever unsure, they would consult people likely to know, such as the RSPCA or a veterinarian. One of the most recent decisions that ultimately allowed an animal killing to be left in, after much checking with authorities, was the famous octopus-eating scene in Oldboy, in which the lead actor devoured a live octopus; it was allowed to stay in because the octopus' head was bitten off quickly, so it was deemed that the octopus would not have suffered enough to contravene the Act, although many UK animal lovers reportedly still complained about this decision.

The snake in Eastern Condors was ripped apart with Yuen Biao's bare hands while still alive, from what I've read (I've not seen the uncut version), which would have caused the snake a great deal of pain -- the creature suffered, and this is prohibited by the Act, as is the deliberate goading of an animal into fear and fury.

Just before people jump in citing it as an example, some have asked why the water buffalo scene was allowed to stay in the UK release of Apocalypse Now, even though it wasn't a swift and humane death; the reason was that it was not deliberately orchestrated by the film-makers; it was a ritual sacrifice that would have happened anyway, and Francis Ford Coppola and his team just happened to be in the right place at the right time to film the sacrifice.

I don't envy the BBFC for having to do all this; some decisions sound really hard to make, especially the Oldboy one.

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OK, I'm clearer on it now. I guess that's why all the scenes of animals being killed in Walkabout were left intact. When it was cut it was the scenes in the child labour camp that were always cut. The snake in Mr.Vampire looked to be alive when pulled from the basket (it's tail is curled and looks to curl some more), but there is then a camera cut to the knife so it could have been switched for a dead one (it's head does look very unresponsive). They also do use things like that in medicine and also believe it gives virility so maybe that was also a factor. The afore mentioned Magic Cop did receive a UK release at one point and checking the BBFC site I notice one of the entries has it receiving cuts of 11 seconds. I wouldn't be surprised if that was for the cat being strangled scene (not killed, but clearly struggling for breath as it is tightly grasped by the neck and held in the air, which I would certainly class as cruelty).

I've never seen the uncut version of Eastern Condors myself either, and probably won't bother now I know what and why it was cut. To be honest I wasn't keen on the film any way.

Would you believe I've never seen Apocalypse now.

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Would you believe I've never seen Apocalypse now.
Nor have I, actually. It's just that it's such a common reference when people have a go at the BBFC for cutting animal cruelty in other films but not that one. I'll have to watch the snake scene in Mr Vampire again, as I never saw any movement previously.

Three of the four horse falls in House Of Flying Daggers were cut because they were achieved using cruel techniques such as trip-wires, and apparently there were things like horses tripping and flipping right over so that they landed on their heads and/or backs. Ouch!

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Film4 keep showing Apocalypse Now so maybe one of these times I'll sit down and see what all the fuss is over the film.

Taking another look at Mr. Vampire I'm not so sure now that it is alive when pulled from the basket. It's tail is curled when pulled out and it looked as if it moved, but I now think that's just because the snake is being moved about.

Seems that horse falls was the same reason why G.I. Samurai with Sonny Chiba was cut. I've never seen the film before so don't know where they take place and what they are like, but the cuts aren't noticeable so I don't think I'll be sourcing an uncut version, which I tend to only do for action, martial art and sci-fi films when they have been cut. I'll give the BBFC their due, the number of cuts to films have come down by a lot and they are trying to be as honest as possible about what and why. Where as years ago I would foam at the mouth over every single cut they would make, I now understand and accept why some are done. I still get peeved over some though.:-)

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Seems that horse falls was the same reason why G.I. Samurai with Sonny Chiba was cut. I've never seen the film before so don't know where they take place and what they are like, but the cuts aren't noticeable so I don't think I'll be sourcing an uncut version, which I tend to only do for action, martial art and sci-fi films when they have been cut.
What surprised me about G.I. Samurai is that there was one instance where a horse somersaulted (which can be dangerous for the horse's neck) and even a shot where three horses were tripped with a wire, and it was kept in somehow (you can even see the trip-wire in the particular shot I'm talking about). Quite how those got by mystifies me, unless it was simply a genuine error (which does happen occasionally).

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I noticed the somersault and other trips, which did actually make me wonder if it was cut or not. At one point one of the horses is struggling to get up and you have to wonder if it was really injured. That's one of the problems I do have with the BBFC, there are some inconsistencies with some passes from others, unless as you say, an uncut (or less than cut) version has been released by mistake. It happened with the Abyss and happened partly with My Lucky Stars. The running time according to the BBFC when submitted was 139m 3s and after the 40s of cuts 138m 20s. I've just checked the DVD again and the running time is 139m 6s so there is a possibility the wrong version has been put out.

Addendum:

After some more searching I found this info (second entry further down the page, under Ghost House, A True Story): http://www.melonfarmers.co.uk/hitsg.htm

"GI Samurai aka Sengoku Jieitai
cuts: 40s
runtime: 138:20s
info: 1975 Japanese Sci-Fi by Mitsumasa Saito (Optimum Releasing)
Cut in 2005 with the following BBFC statement: Company was required to remove sight of illegal horsefalls

Thanks to Anthony: despite 44 seconds of horse falls being cut by the BBFC, there were still some shots that showed horses doing forward somersaults (which the sBBFC website claims can easily break a horse’s neck) and even a clear shot of trip-wired horses still remains in the version I have seen!"

The 139m 6s running time of my DVD still does not match the 138m 20s running time after cuts according to the BBFC site so it could still be that the wrong version has been released.

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It wouldn't be the first time that an uncut version of something that was supposed to be cut was put out in the shops by mistake. One notable example is the previous 12-rated version of Goldeneye, which had, amongst other things, a strong head-butt by Famke Janssen cut to comply with the 12 category restrictions (only moderate violence is allowed at 12, not strong violence). One of the extras on the DVD was also supposed to have this cut (the BBFC's website also indicates that the head-butt was compulsorily deleted to keep the DVD's overall certificate at 12 due to their restrictions on different versions at different categories at the time), but in that documentary the head-butt was fully intact despite it missing from the main film on the same disc! Oops!

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I did have the version of the Abyss with the 'rat' scene in it when it was incorrectly put out, but sold it. I still have the uncut version of True Lies though from when the Australian version was accidentally put out instead of the re-cut (more than the VHS version) hack job that's available now (not due to the BBFC though), as well as a copy of My Lucky Stars which has the full car break in scene intact (and I think that version can also be rented from most on-line rentals).

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