MovieChat Forums > Flesh+Blood (1985) Discussion > Just a little too creepy to be my kinda ...

Just a little too creepy to be my kinda protagonists


Martin started off cool. He had the best outfit, the best weapon, and the love of a good whore...but then came agnes. I found it very disturbing that somebody seeking justice and revenge would target somebody who had nothing to do with it. It's like a holocaust survivor who blames it on the Scottish. Now granted, Agnes was hot, but rapable? I...don't...think...so. I can understand being very angry about losing his possible child to a miscarriage, but how can a drunken whore who throws herself at every man who walks her way possibly blame that on Arnolfini? Let's face it, Martin's friends were all scum. When you have people killing and raping innocent people, I don't care how historically accurate and acceptable at the times that it is, I'm not buying that they are the heroes of the story. The only good person is Arnolfini's son, who at least speaks out against his father's betrayal of Martin and all the mercenaries. That's it.

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You are right...but, don't you think there was an attraction/attachment going on between he and Agnes?

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[deleted]

I think Agnes was doing what she had to do to survive in a very bad situation -- and one which has surely occurred throughout human history, and well back into the evolutionary history of pre-human hominids. The only likely outcomes for a young girl captured by a band of lawless men like Martin's mercenaries are A) being gang-raped by all of them, or B) engaging the attention of one of them, preferably the alpha of the pack, so to speak, strong enough to protect her from the others. Gang rapes have a tendency to escalate in violence, a positive feedback effect which often results in severe injury or death; the other outcome is vastly preferable from the victim's point of view.

Looked at from the evolutionary standpoint, once a female has been raped by every male in the group, no particular male has any strong interest in her survival or that of any child she may conceive afterwards, because the probability of the child being *his* is quite low. On the other hand, if she can attract the group leader's interest, he will be inclined to protect her from rape by the others, and protect her children as they are most likely to be his own.

I think that in the beginning, Agnes was mostly faking her attraction to Martin, and completely faking her "enjoyment" of that first rape. However, the ploy worked, and she then needed to keep it up. I suspect it's difficult to fake emotion like that convincingly without actually feeling it at least somewhat, and she might also have felt a degree of gratitude toward Martin because he did protect her, and genuine attraction simply because he was, at least physically, a remarkably attractive man -- a natural alpha male type. (Hauer is among the most magnetic actors of his generation; IMHO, his charisma even eclipsed that of Harrison Ford in *Blade Runner*.) When it came down to it, she couldn't bring herself to let him die, even though she certainly wanted to escape him and rejoin Steven.

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[deleted]

"I think Agnes was doing what she had to do to survive in a very bad situation -- and one which has surely occurred throughout human history (...)
"Looked at from the evolutionary standpoint, once a female has been raped by every male in the group, no particular male has any strong interest in her survival or that of any child she may conceive afterwards (...)
"I think that in the beginning, Agnes was mostly faking her attraction to Martin, and completely faking her "enjoyment" of that first rape."


Thank you for this interesting and intelligent post. I agree that Agnes had little alternative if she wanted to survive. Sadly, the judgement of outsiders is often negative: slut, whore, calculating b'tch, etc. What ordeal would posters here have chosen - rather be gangraped and wasted (killed) than do what Agnes did? I doubt it. If there is a point to sacrifice, like protecting someone else, some people will choose to sacrifice themselves. But here, Agnes clearly had only one real option and she took it.

Your further points about the group round it up well.






"The Beamer Xperience: 9 feet wide home cinema bliss."

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> (...) Now granted, Agnes was hot, but rapable?

Rape is not a crime of passion. It is one of hatred and (often) like in this case) revenge.

> (...) The only good person

You Americans always think in such Disneyterms. Everything has to be either black or white for you. Whenever reality creeps in you get confused and paddle back.

No one in this movie is truly good or bad. They are all in there way evil of some kind. Just to certain degrees.

Yes, he is a fairly good person, but remeber the scene at the farm house: The moment he didn`t get his way he shifts and threatens Hawkwood with the life of the nun and his farm. I consider such behavior evil. His action in general are selfish since he only cares to get Agnes back. Who he sacrifices in the process... he really doesn`t seem to care much.
--
"I used to be Tommy Vercetti, now I'm Phil Cassidy."

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First of all, making a statement such as "You Americans.." reveals much about the poster, and little of it is good. When you are pointing out falacy in a post, at least do it in a way thats not bringing in completely superfluous information. The poster's nationality has little to do with his stated opinion.

Secondly, you are making a comment about how everything is black and white for the previous poster, indicating that they may be scared of the "reality creeping in". If you were really considering the ramifications of what you were saying you would realize that everything is subjective to personal outlook and nothing, in all reality, is ever black and white. Even the previous poster's "Disneytermed" outlook, just the way you chose to percieve it. Try not to demonstrate the very same behavior you are trying to criticize.

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> First of all, making a statement such as (...)

That you getting so pissed means I hid the nail on the head... again.

> (...) Try not to demonstrate the very same behavior you are trying to
> criticize.

Take your PC-crap home.
--
"I used to be Tommy Vercetti, now I'm Phil Cassidy."

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LMAO at Tank
You criticize Americans for seeing things in only "black and white", yet your list of favorite TV show is every cliche dead-ringer for that category:

"Favorite TV-shows: Miami Vice, Tour of Duty, Space: Above & Beyond, Buffy, Angel, Alias, 24, Lost, Over there, Sopranos, Deadwood, BS Galactica (New Series)"


LOL go get some character depth from "24".

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> You criticize Americans for seeing things in only "black and white",
> yet your list of favorite TV show is every cliche (...) LOL go get some
> character depth from "24".

I think you need to learn some distingtion to differantiate between portraile and actuallity.

One thing is totally different from the other.
--
"I used to be Tommy Vercetti, now I'm Phil Cassidy."

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I think you need to learn how to spell, fool. Once you've accomplished that simple task then, maybe, you can move on to expressing your views on this movie in a less purile manner -- although I doubt it.

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[deleted]

Wow. I've seen some of your other posts on this board and I've just got to say, you've got what the Brits would call iss-yous.

And, let me say it for you. I'm an American. And you cannot insult me into agreeing with your distorted view of Americans. Judging from what I've seen you post elsewhere, you know very little about Americans, but have convinced yourself that you're an expert on the subject.

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Fascinating. Condemning someone for seeing things in black and white by resorting to absolutes in the form of generalities, i.e. seeing things in black and white. Do non-Americans understand irony? Just an idle question, so you need not answer it if it makes you uncomfortable. I mean, I'd personally be embarrassed to realize I'd demonstrated such stupidity in a public setting, but perhaps you've grown accustomed to doing so and, as such, no longer feel shame?

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[deleted]

Are you a European or perhaps white? I find it funny that many Europeans or white guys often criticize Americans for their ignorance, stupidity, whatever else you can think of when actually you guys (European descent) have a lot in common in culture, tradition & character. You remind me of a person ashamed of a relative or family member because you see yourself in them. You don't see many Asians as arrogant as you are so I'm assuming you're not one.

PS. Although I don't believe that everything is definitive, I still believe in the concept, that there are things as Black & White, boundaries that should never be crossed. & what do you have to be so hostile about?


Oh, what a big man you are! Hey let me buy you a pack of gum, I'll show you how to chew it

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>> Rape is not a crime of passion. It is one of hatred and (often) like in this case) revenge.

I disagree and think this is a very naive text book idea. The men wanted to rape the princess primarily because she was beautiful and they lusted for her. Women are a spoil of war. They'd be a lot more reluctant to rape her out of revenge if she was ugly. They'd probably still do it out of revenge, but I don't think there'd be so much internal fighting over who got to go next. ;)

>> No one in this movie is truly good or bad. They are all in there way evil of some kind. Just to certain degrees.

You have good sense. It's amazing how the majority of people can complain about these rare quality films because the characters are too realistic or the ending isn't happily ever after.

>> I consider such behavior evil.

And I consider it good? Difference of opinions is all. :)



~ Observe, and act with clarity. ~

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And you "non-Americans" always reduce things to reductivist national stereotyping, usually on nothing but wild presumptions.

I'm an American, and I've always particularly enjoyed Verhoeven for his stark moral ambiguity. Yes, I have actually managed to *pierce* through my 'American-ness" and realize that there are no good/bad guy dialectics in his movies (not even in ostensible Schwarzenegger boom-boom stuff like "Total Recall"), and that if you *had* to choose sides, the protagonists are in fact often the least defensible. I also dislike guns and have a nominal body-mass index. I do, alas, enjoy an occasional cheese burger.

Idiot.

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Well, Martin was kind of scum, too.
He just was the best of the worst.

Rutger Hauer is great in radiating badness and charm (The Hitcher, Blade Runner).
That's why Anne Rice based her Lestat vampire on him.



Edit: And Agnes was not 'rapeable', but she was very shagadelic.




"The Beamer Xperience: 9 feet wide home cinema bliss."

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I think Verhoeven and Soetman's intention was to try and depict the morality of the times.

I'm not a historian by any stretch of the imagination, but I do enjoy reading, and I have read a wee bit about Landsknecht mercenaries, and it would not be unusual for them to rape a woman.

Obviously I'm not defending rape, just because it's acceptable amongst your peers does not make it right, however unlike many movies where Martin would have been depicted as having some kind of inherent goodness that set him apart from his band of followers he is instead depicted realistically.

I'm also not saying that this one of the most historically accurate movies ever, it isn't, and some of the science is, well, impossible (tut, tut Dr Verhoeven) but in terms of attitudes this movie is far more realistic than most.

Even nowadays people can't be lumped into good or bad - this sort of binary view is naive. When a movie purpots to be realistic and then takes a black and white viewpoint of good and bad it's nothing short of hypocrisy (fair enough if the movie intends to be simple, escapist fun) movies like this that add a shade of grey to the equation should it should be commended.

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Well, Martin was kind of scum, too.
He just was the best of the worst.

Rutger Hauer is great in radiating badness and charm (The Hitcher, Blade Runner).
That's why Anne Rice based her Lestat vampire on him.


I never knew that. I actually thought Cruise was good in the role but I can definitely see Hauer playing the character especially if they made more movies based on the later books.


DISPLAY thy breasts, my Julia!

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She blamed it on Arnolfini because presumably the fact that they were starving and shelterless contributed to her ill health and might have had something to do with the miscarriage.

Agnes was guilty by association - partly because she was in Arnolfini's baggage, but also as a simple class matter. Class warfare was particularly rampant in the 16th century, especially in the Empire (which Italy was technically a part of, and most of the mercenaries were from Germany), and partly as a result of the social upheaval of the early Reformation. Brion James' character's name is a clue to this aspect of the story; "Karsthans" was the name of the stereotypical peasant in a popular anticlerical tract from that time.

The mercenaries were all people of humble origins and Agnes was a member of the ruling class they saw as oppressive, corrupt, and evil. They acted like scum in part because they knew they would be seen as and treated like scum regardless of how they acted. They were violent and had no respect for human life because they were paid to be killers and their rulers and employers had no respect for their lives.

That doesn't excuse their behavior but it does help to explain it and put in into perspective. It was a horribly violent age and only got worse in the decades to come - for even worse protagonists, watch The Last Valley with Michael Caine. I don't think any movie set in that time, place, and setting could be happy and uplifting unless it was pure fantasy.

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When we start to think that one nationality is more noble or less noble than the others then we have got ELITISM.

I believe that the HUMAN CONDITION is such that no RACE or CULTURE or NATION is far removed from doing the EVIL or AMORAL acts that are depicted in this movie.

If MEN are placed in the wrong situations, many will fail to do the proper thing.

A more recent example being some of the worst evils of WWII were committed by a group of German soldiers composed of recruited police and firemen.

Police and firemen who in their civilian lives had saved lives and not brutalized others.

If these men can be turned into evil culprits, who among us a chance?

************************************************

Liberals kill with ABORTION.
Conservatives kill with the DEATH PENALTY.
I kill with WORDS.

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[deleted]

Who said they were the heroes? protagonists maybe..

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I think this had something to do with hauer falling out with the director a little around this period.
I think even hauer wanted the lead character to gain more sympathy from the audience, and apprently, there was more scope for that within the original script.
As for americans needing thing's in black and white, i think thats rubbish.
Im from the UK and the majority of movie goers are all the same, in that they seem to prefer movies where the line between good and bad is much clearer.
Personally, i found the character's to be fairly accurate for the times its set in, living in such brutal times called for brutal action's.
Hauer's character for me was MORE appealing due to this lack of a clear 'hero' aspect, this isnt a Hollywood blockbuster, and im sure never could be really.

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I think Agnes suffered from a bit of the stockholm syndrome. I say the ultimate "bad" guy in the movie is Arnofini. If he wouldn't have screwed over Martin and friends, they wouldn't have sought revenge through Agnes' kidnapping etc.

People nowadays don't realize how barbaric things were back then (not even that far back even) when raping was part of conquering and how little value human life had.

www.billszone.com

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The nobility exists by exploiting the lower classes solely for its own benefit. Thus, any indiviual within that class is collectively responsible for the actions of the whole of the class. Get it? Agnes was NOT an "innocent", which is why she joins Martin so willingly afterward.

Her character was inspired by American heiress Patty Hearst who was abducted in 1974 by the Symbionese Liberation Army, yet within 60 days had willingly joined them in their urban terrorist operations.

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LOL at all the deleted posts! Was that our boy tank attempting yet more feeble retorts and FAILING like a load of choat up his mamma's rectum??

tank = FAILED CHOAT!!!!


'Get busy living, or get busy dying'

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