I understand that the plot for this movie was to make people realize that no one understood the Mr. Lewis just loved Alice the way a father would, but the way they went about it in the movie made it look like he was lusting after her. It was just really eerie the way he would stare at her whether around other people like on the water or when they were alone like in the dark room. Watching the way he acted around her just really creeped me out and made me nervous for Alice.
shareThe movie is about 80 year old Alice Hargreaves's struggle to understand Lewis Carrol feelings towards her when she was just a young girl. The movie suggest he simply loved her and that was why he wrote books for her. By the end of the movie, she accepts he was odd, but nice man, that loved her for reasons she can't fully understand. The movie never suggests that he was trying to seduce young Alice. Carrol seemed very frightened of doing anything that would cause young Alice to be unhappy or disapprove of him.
Since the real events happened such a long time ago we really don't know the true nature of their relationship. He might have had feelings of a father, an uncle, and older brother, a Teacher, a friend, or some combination. Maybe he simply loved her like a daugher because he had none.
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This isn't a very popular board so I doubt there will be much discussion from my comment, but I will say it anyway.
I felt that the film was trying to portray a romantic love coming from Mr. Carrol's character alone and that Alice was consistantly oblivious to it. Especially when in the darkroom he clumsily asks who she thinks she'll marry.
I think that if this movie was made today, there would be less discreetness needed and he would be portrayed as a pedophile. In 1985, you couldn't do such things without getting into trouble.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
"Do you like apples?"
GWH
As a Lewis Carroll scholar of sorts...I will put all of these arguments to rest..
(1) Charles Dodgson in someways emotionally never grew up.. He felt more comfortable around children, particularly, little girls. Not surprising since he grew up with a gaggle of sisters.
(2) Was Charles was afraid of mature women, and was a recluse?
NO...he was an odd bird, did not like to mingle or idle unnecessarily, and as a rule, avoided adult society, mainly because of his stutter.
He had MANY adult women friends, and also males. He also liked boys to a degree, but his fascination was little girls.
(3) Did Dodgson molest children, was he a pedophile??
NO...things were different in Victorian England. Of all the accounts,and there were many, from scores of his child friends, not one accused him of the slightest impropriety... BUT..this did not mean that his attachments to little girls were not in some ways..romantic.
His letters reveal the many emotions of a romantically attached man.
As to Alice...YES, he was in love with her, and did want to marry her.
There is undeniable proof.
First..he mentioned in a letter to his uncle, concerning the romantic attachment of his brother to another Alice...Alice Donkin who was just 14. (They eventually DID marry when she turned 18)
In the letter,he mentions that he didn't want his brother to share the same pain that he went through under similar conditions with "A.L" (now who could THAT be?
Again, other letters and diary accounts, we learn that later in life, after Alice was married, both he and Alice's mother had a long talk about those times..and they reconciled their differences...
He referred to his "attachment" to Alice as his "foolishness" and now that Alice was a married woman, Alice's mother no longer felt Dodgson a threat to her ambitions for her daughter's future.
THIS is why she had burned his letters to Alice when she was a child, and what caused the rift..
In true Victorian fashion, he had meekly, and informally confessed to Alice's mother, his growing feelings for Alice, and the possibility of marriage to Alice in the future if they both felt the same way towards each other.
Alice's mother of course refused..not that she didn't like Dodgson, or thought him a pervert, but most likely because she thought Dodgson not ambitious enough for her daughter.
Even after he became famous for writing the Alice books, he still did not have the taste for the aristocracy that Alice's mother sought (remember, Alice was distantly related to Queen Victoria,and subsequent royalty including the Queen Mother of Elizabeth II.)
The real insight here is that she would have just laughed off his proposals if he alone had those feelings...but because her daughter Alice also probably had expressed a likewise unique fondness for "Mr. Dodgson"..she considered it a true threat, and subsequently banning Dodgson from seeing Alice, and burning his letters to her which surely had a romantic aspect.
To those still skeptical, I should only ask them to revisit the poems Dodgson wrote framing the two Alice books...the true answers are there.
japonaliya,
Thanks for sharing your insights!
Thanks for your excellent summation! I have only one point to add.
Modern viewers (and readers) must remember marriages between older men and much younger women, even girls, were not uncommon. As your post clearly shows Mrs. Liddell's objection to a possible marriage was based more on social status and her aspirations for her daughters, not the age difference.
My interpretation of Dodgson's letters and diaries concurs with yours except I'm not sure when he became aware of the stronger love he felt for Alice. Obviously she was still a girl but I've always thought he created both stories and books out of his life-long love of all children, especially Alice and her sisters. It may well be his growing/changing love inspired him to write AIW and TTLG but he also wrote other "children's" books throughout his life and until his death enjoyed his correspondences with young children, continuing to puzzle, tease, and be as playful a correspondent as he was in his time with the Liddell children.
I also believe Alice was his one true love, meaning he did not entertain matrimonial ideas about the many children who became his friends afterward. Any light to shed?
Dreamchild is one of my favorite movies and being able to order a DVD on demand insures I'll always be able to watch it again. Thanks!
please don't make me use ignore...
I took it that the Alice character ( in this film) LIKED the attention from Carrol and knew she had a power over him. She didnt fully understand where this power came from... and I suspect -neither did he.
shareThe young Alice does notice the attention and is even perhaps, in her naive way, subtly flirtacious with him.
The reason he is NOT a pedophile is because there is no evidence whatsoever that he abused children. That's it. That doesn't mean his feelings for Alice weren't in any way sexual, but how can we know?
If I have to tell you again, we're gonna take it outside and I'm gonna show you what it's like!
He was a paedophile, in the strict medical sense of the word, because he was sexually attracted to children. However, he was not a child molester because he never actually attempted to act on those tormented desires.
Paedophiles, despite what the media and our own instincts might tell us, are not necessarily evil human-beings. They need medical help, for sure. But unless they actually act on, or try to act on, those desires they are not inherently evil, despite clearly having an illness that needs to be, if not cured then at least monitored and treated (for their benefit and the benefit of any potentially vulnerable child).
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by italiangirl3 ยป Sat Jan 29 2005 12:35:36
IMDb member since September 2004
I understand that the plot for this movie was to make people realize that no one understood the Mr. Lewis just loved Alice the way a father would, but the way they went about it in the movie made it look like he was lusting after her. It was just really eerie the way he would stare at her whether around other people like on the water or when they were alone like in the dark room. Watching the way he acted around her just really creeped me out and made me nervous for Alice.