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Reshuffling Romantic Subplots in a hypothetical reboot...

posted 8 years ago by DarthBill
21 replies | jump to latest

Okay, so we all know how the subplots play out in Robotech, and we all know a reboot is about as close to happening as a pig flying, but let's toss an idea out anyway.

In "Macross Saga" we all know it takes forever & a day for Rick Hunter to get together with his boss Lisa Hayes, while Max Sterling and Miriya Parina hook up rather quickly by comparison.

But what if this were to be reversed in some hypothetical reboot of the series? What if, after initially leading us to believing we would see the Minmei/Rick/Lisa triangle play out all over again, we instead find that Rick and Lisa are already a secretly dating while the "will they or won't they?" aspect gets played out between Max & Miriya?

How would that impact the plot? How would that impact the individual character arcs? Would Rick and Lisa's development both together and independently of each other, really be hindered by this, or could they still have perfectly good, meaningful development both together and independently of each other? Oh yeah, and what would Minmei end up doing in this scenario, be the one chasing a guy she can't have?

And what changes would that require for Max & Miriya? Personally I've always thought that a great way to use Miriya in a hypothetical reboot would be for her to infiltrate the SDF-1 bridge crew as a spy after getting beaten by Max in battle & watch her surprise as she studies both humanity and Max, finding him to be not what she expected, to say nothing of humanity not matching her expectations. Of course I also feel the Max/Miriya subplot was under-used and that Miriya in general deserved more screen time.

Thoughts?

[–] Fluke_Skywalker 8 years ago

That's a very good question/hypothetical.

I almost wonder if a Max/Miriya romance might not be shelved in a potential movie adaptation. So many such subplots are when things are adapted, and in the view of the filmmakers one romance might be enough.

I can't see anyone having the courage to change the basic dynamics of that Rick/Lisa/Minmei love triangle. As frustrating as so many fans (including yours truly) find it, it is a pretty iconic part of that G1/Macross saga story.

If I were put in charge of it, I'd adapt it as a trilogy, and I would put the focus on the love triangle in the first two films, trying to eliminate its more annoying aspects. i.e.; Rick can't be such a lunkhead, Lisa has to be sympathetic even when she's at her most duty-bound and Minmei the same even when she's being immature or selfish. But I sure as heck wouldn't drag it out for three films. That just violates the Geneva Convention. I'd follow the Han/Leia model, where at a dark hour they confess their feelings as they head into a desperate fight.

Then I'd introduce the Max/Miriya romance in the third film, with just enough hints sprinkled in perhaps the second film so that it's not out of left field.

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A journey into the realm of the obscure: http://saturdayshowcase.blogspot.com/

[–] DarthBill 8 years ago

That's a very good question/hypothetical.

Thank you.

I almost wonder if a Max/Miriya romance might not be shelved in a potential movie adaptation. So many such subplots are when things are adapted, and in the view of the filmmakers one romance might be enough.

I can certainly understand that. At the same time, Max/Miriya is not entirely superfluous as it results in the birth of Dana, who serves as the main protagonist of the Southern Cross/Masters portion of Robotech.

I can't see anyone having the courage to change the basic dynamics of that Rick/Lisa/Minmei love triangle. As frustrating as so many fans (including yours truly) find it, it is a pretty iconic part of that G1/Macross saga story.

As is the question with any reboot/remake/relaunch - how much can you get away with changing without losing the heart & soul that made the property what it was?

Case in point, and sorry to veer off topic a little bit here, what if Rick's history were changed in a hypothetical reboot to have him grow up on Macross Island, be childhood friends with Minmei, as well as childhood friends with Max Sterling and Ben Dixon, and have Rick & Minmei be on the verge of crossing the line between friends and lovers when the big epic invasion starts? Would that put Lisa at a disadvantage when it comes to the shipping wars that are bound to ensue?

Or, and again sorry to veer off topic, what if they changed up the familiar connections and made Marie Crystal, another Southern Cross/Masters heroine, and made her the daughter of Rick & Lisa, would that alter the texture of the Robotech mythology too much?

If I were put in charge of it, I'd adapt it as a trilogy, and I would put the focus on the love triangle in the first two films, trying to eliminate its more annoying aspects. i.e.; Rick can't be such a lunkhead, Lisa has to be sympathetic even when she's at her most duty-bound and Minmei the same even when she's being immature or selfish. But I sure as heck wouldn't drag it out for three films. That just violates the Geneva Convention. I'd follow the Han/Leia model, where at a dark hour they confess their feelings as they head into a desperate fight.

Then I'd introduce the Max/Miriya romance in the third film, with just enough hints sprinkled in perhaps the second film so that it's not out of left field.

Works for me.

[–] Fluke_Skywalker 8 years ago

As is the question with any reboot/remake/relaunch - how much can you get away with changing without losing the heart & soul that made the property what it was?

Case in point, and sorry to veer off topic a little bit here, what if Rick's history were changed in a hypothetical reboot to have him grow up on Macross Island, be childhood friends with Minmei, as well as childhood friends with Max Sterling and Ben Dixon, and have Rick & Minmei be on the verge of crossing the line between friends and lovers when the big epic invasion starts? Would that put Lisa at a disadvantage when it comes to the shipping wars that are bound to ensue?

Or, and again sorry to veer off topic, what if they changed up the familiar connections and made Marie Crystal, another Southern Cross/Masters heroine, and made her the daughter of Rick & Lisa, would that alter the texture of the Robotech mythology too much?

No worries. These sorts of hypotheticals invite--almost demand--tangents.

It's really tough to know what the ripple effect will be when you start to move pieces around. Mythology is a bit like gears in a machine. You may only switch around a couple, but the machine is apt to run differently after that. You look at the JJ Abrams take on Star Trek. He wanted the freedom to tell his own version, so he created a device that allowed for an alternate timeline. But even though he plugged a lot of the same basic pieces back into the machine, aspects like Spock and Uhura's romance do change the dynamics in subtle and not so subtle ways.

I have to think that even if the rest of the basic plot stayed the same, changing the relationship dynamics would have a definite effect on how that story played.

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A journey into the realm of the obscure: http://saturdayshowcase.blogspot.com/

[–] DarthBill 8 years ago

No worries. These sorts of hypotheticals invite--almost demand--tangents.

Thanks.

It's really tough to know what the ripple effect will be when you start to move pieces around. Mythology is a bit like gears in a machine. You may only switch around a couple, but the machine is apt to run differently after that. You look at the JJ Abrams take on Star Trek. He wanted the freedom to tell his own version, so he created a device that allowed for an alternate timeline. But even though he plugged a lot of the same basic pieces back into the machine, aspects like Spock and Uhura's romance do change the dynamics in subtle and not so subtle ways.

I have to think that even if the rest of the basic plot stayed the same, changing the relationship dynamics would have a definite effect on how that story played.

Yeah, that's very true. And it goes back to the old "you can only change so much until it stops being what it is/was" ideal. Like if Superman comes from Mars instead of Krypton then he's not really Superman. Or if Hercules's biological father is not Zeus but some other really strong dude then he's not really Hercules (as was the case with some TV film from a few years ago).

Can you imagine how fans might feel if a reboot actually opened with the Masters instead of Macross Saga, with Rick, Lisa & other old guard MS characters like Max & Miriya as the Earth bound overseeing authority (the supporting cast in other words) with bits & pieces of the MS plot thrown in as back story to explain the present conflict? I can only imagine how the fan base would react to that.

I know some fans don't even like the idea of a new voice cast replacing the old one (even though Kari Wahlgren did take Melanie MacQueen's place as Ariel in "Shadow Chronicles" even MacQueen still played Marlene Rush), so there's that ripple effect to deal with as well. I personally don't have a problem with new actors & actresses inheriting the roles - so long as they do a good job of course. I mean it's nice that Harmony-Gold got Gregory "Greg" Snegoff, Tony Oliver, Richard Epcar, Edie Mirman, Iona Morris, Eddie Frierson, Melanie MacQueen, Barbara Goodson and Cam Clarke (and any others I may have missed) to come back for features like "Shadow Chronicles" and "Love Live Alive" (if you can call that a feature), either reprising their old roles or playing new ones, and lucky for them that for the most part those actors & actresses voices didn't age too much during the 20 some years that passed (compared to say Sean Connery in his early James Bond films to LXG) but at the same time a reboot needs its own identity, hence a new cast, plus you can never be sure if the older voices will match up well with new designs.

I don't know why but I like toying with the idea of making Marie Crystal from "Masters" the daughter or foster daughter of Rick & Lisa. I'm sure there's an argument out there that doing so would somehow undermine Marie as a character in her own right, but then again over on "Young Justice" they made Artemis Crock the sister of Cheshire and no one seemed to mind that.

I definitely wouldn't want the Minmei/Rick/Lisa plot to drag out forever & a day again, partly so that a new version of Robotech can have its own identity & partly because it would just be annoying. Seeing Rick & Lisa actually enjoying their damn relationship after they hook up would be nice (and admittedly "The Sentinels" feature did try to give us that). Again, I like your solution as it seems the most logical route (even though I'm still tempted by the forbidden allure of Rick & Lisa already being together before the invasion ).

[–] Fluke_Skywalker 8 years ago

Yeah, that's very true. And it goes back to the old "you can only change so much until it stops being what it is/was" ideal. Like if Superman comes from Mars instead of Krypton then he's not really Superman. Or if Hercules's biological father is not Zeus but some other really strong dude then he's not really Hercules (as was the case with some TV film from a few years ago).

Definitely. I try to keep an open mind about properties that are being adapted for the nth time because what's the point of telling the exact same story over and over again? But yeah, there are certain elements that are fundamental to the character/property. A part of its DNA. For instance I hated how the Spider-Man reboot (2012) danced around the "With great power, comes great responsibility." line. They tried to imply it, but it needs to be SAID and demonstrated. Peter has to act selfishly, Uncle Ben must die because of this and that lesson must drill him right between the eyes. I don't care about organic vs. man-made web shooters, but you can't fiddle with the heart and soul of the piece.

In other instances an alternative take works. Take the Gotham TV series for instance, which re-imagines any number of character origins and relationships. It's a different spin, but it doesn't feel like it's violating anything sacred. On the other hand, Batman intentionally killing someone in Batman vs. Superman was seen as a huge no-no, violating something more sacred about the character.

Can you imagine how fans might feel if a reboot actually opened with the Masters instead of Macross Saga, with Rick, Lisa & other old guard MS characters like Max & Miriya as the Earth bound overseeing authority (the supporting cast in other words) with bits & pieces of the MS plot thrown in as back story to explain the present conflict? I can only imagine how the fan base would react to that.

That would certainly NOT sit well with fans. And fans are an altogether different animal. They/we tend to hold certain aspects, even esoteric ones, sacred. Change a character's hair color or hometown and there's an uproar.

I think unlike Star Wars, it's almost a necessity to begin with the first gen first. I'm not sure jumping right into that second gen and then (perhaps) going back and telling the first gen prequel style works here.

I definitely wouldn't want the Minmei/Rick/Lisa plot to drag out forever & a day again, partly so that a new version of Robotech can have its own identity & partly because it would just be annoying. Seeing Rick & Lisa actually enjoying their damn relationship after they hook up would be nice (and admittedly "The Sentinels" feature did try to give us that). Again, I like your solution as it seems the most logical route (even though I'm still tempted by the forbidden allure of Rick & Lisa already being together before the invasion ).

Thanks. Yeah, it's the single biggest slippery slope in adapting Robotech (Macross) IMO. Deciding how you're going to balance that triangle is so crucial. Get it wrong and the whole thing could collapse under the weight of it.

Of course I suppose you could use the George Lucas solution and just make Minmei Rick's sister .

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A journey into the realm of the obscure: http://saturdayshowcase.blogspot.com/

[–] DarthBill 8 years ago

Definitely. I try to keep an open mind about properties that are being adapted for the nth time because what's the point of telling the exact same story over and over again? But yeah, there are certain elements that are fundamental to the character/property. A part of its DNA. For instance I hated how the Spider-Man reboot (2012) danced around the "With great power, comes great responsibility." line. They tried to imply it, but it needs to be SAID and demonstrated. Peter has to act selfishly, Uncle Ben must die because of this and that lesson must drill him right between the eyes. I don't care about organic vs. man-made web shooters, but you can't fiddle with the heart and soul of the piece.

In other instances an alternative take works. Take the Gotham TV series for instance, which re-imagines any number of character origins and relationships. It's a different spin, but it doesn't feel like it's violating anything sacred. On the other hand, Batman intentionally killing someone in Batman vs. Superman was seen as a huge no-no, violating something more sacred about the character.

I don't actually watch "Gotham" but I get what you mean. I did see BVS and hated that from start to finish (and I liked "Man of Steel" despite its flaws or alternately things that were not in its best interest).

That would certainly NOT sit well with fans. And fans are an altogether different animal. They/we tend to hold certain aspects, even esoteric ones, sacred. Change a character's hair color or hometown and there's an uproar.

I think unlike Star Wars, it's almost a necessity to begin with the first gen first. I'm not sure jumping right into that second gen and then (perhaps) going back and telling the first gen prequel style works here.

Yeah, that probably wouldn't go over well. I don't think it's impossible for that approach to work, but the bulk of the fan base would probably still dislike it.

And yeah, we all hold different things as being "sacred" regarding the source material. I mean I liked "Legend of Korra" but I'd be lying if I said there weren't things that either could have or should have been better, and things I would gladly change in a live action adaptation or reboot/whatever (case in point, downplaying the creator pet favoritism shown to Toph & Suyin Beifong).

Thanks. Yeah, it's the single biggest slippery slope in adapting Robotech (Macross) IMO. Deciding how you're going to balance that triangle is so crucial. Get it wrong and the whole thing could collapse under the weight of it.

Of course I suppose you could use the George Lucas solution and just make Minmei Rick's sister .

Who knows, the fan base might actually love that latter idea. ;)

Seriously though, as I've ranted in other threads, the Rick/Lisa angle is pretty much the weakest link in the Macross Saga & one of the worst romances I've ever seen in any medium, so any liberty taken in a hypothetical reboot that reduces how obnoxious that subplot is (and/or makes Rick a less annoying protagonist) is alright by me.

[–] Fluke_Skywalker 8 years ago

I did see BVS and hated that from start to finish (and I liked "Man of Steel" despite its flaws or alternately things that were not in its best interest).

I found MOS alternately frustrating and thrilling. One minute it would get something just right and the next it would swing and miss so badly I could feel a waft of air. But on balance I liked more than I didn't, or at least the good offset the bad enough for me to enjoy it.

And yeah, we all hold different things as being "sacred" regarding the source material.

And that certainly gives credence to the old saying "You can't please everyone.". There's also more than a nugget of truth in "If you try to please everyone you end up pleasing no one.".

When it comes to adapting something and making changes deemed necessary for the format, look no further than Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings. He cut things like Tom Bombodil, increased the role of Arwen, took a moment that had previously been a chapter (the Helm's Deep battle) and made it the third act of the second film and tons more. Hard to argue he didn't create a classic and well loved trilogy of films, but there are fans of the book who think its spirit and essence were lost amongst all the big battles and hullabaloo.

Seriously though, as I've ranted in other threads, the Rick/Lisa angle is pretty much the weakest link in the Macross Saga & one of the worst romances I've ever seen in any medium, so any liberty taken in a hypothetical reboot that reduces how obnoxious that subplot is (and/or makes Rick a less annoying protagonist) is alright by me.

I think you'd find a general consensus on that. Probably a lot of disagreement on how to fix it, but certainly I'd bank that most Robotech fans share your frustration with it.

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A journey into the realm of the obscure: http://saturdayshowcase.blogspot.com/

[–] DarthBill 8 years ago

I found MOS alternately frustrating and thrilling. One minute it would get something just right and the next it would swing and miss so badly I could feel a waft of air. But on balance I liked more than I didn't, or at least the good offset the bad enough for me to enjoy it.

I don't deny having nitpicks with MOS, and the incredibly dour & soulless BVS just gives me another reason to *finally* appreciate what the Reeve era Superman films, even the bad ones, did well, but like you I felt and still feel that the good in MOS outweighs the bad.

And that certainly gives credence to the old saying "You can't please everyone.". There's also more than a nugget of truth in "If you try to please everyone you end up pleasing no one.".

When it comes to adapting something and making changes deemed necessary for the format, look no further than Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings. He cut things like Tom Bombodil, increased the role of Arwen, took a moment that had previously been a chapter (the Helm's Deep battle) and made it the third act of the second film and tons more. Hard to argue he didn't create a classic and well loved trilogy of films, but there are fans of the book who think its spirit and essence were lost amongst all the big battles and hullabaloo.

I still haven't read the Lord of the Rings books proper, just read some of the differences, so whatever nitpicks I have with the films are with the films as films and not as adaptations of the books. Yet.

But I see what you're saying, and you can see it in comic book reboots, be they reboots of minor things are universe sweeping reboots, where you have to pick and choose between the stuff that is truly essential to the character(s) & overall story and the stuff that feels clunky or dated or just worked better 30 or 40 or however many years ago than they do today or regardless of time period what looks good in hand drawn animation what looks good done live, etc.

I think the vehicles and military costumes of Robotech could probably be adapted easily enough, while certain clothing fashions & hair styles (such as Rick Hunter's Goku hair) probably won't translate so well.

I personally don't think that something like say Rick being a lifelong resident of Macross Island and childhood friend of Minmei, Max Sterling and Ben Dixon, with Minmei and Rick being a couple when the invasion starts, is the worst change to the mythology that a hypothetical reboot could make, but that's just me.

I think you'd find a general consensus on that. Probably a lot of disagreement on how to fix it, but certainly I'd bank that most Robotech fans share your frustration with it.

Yeah, I think most fans would agree that the original execution of the Minmei/Rick/Lisa plot, especially the Rick/Lisa aspect, would not go over well with a modern audience. It was like watching the Peter/MJ plot get flogged into oblivion in "Spider-Man 3" and that's definitely not the route they should take. I wonder sometimes if Carl Macek and his colleagues may have felt the same way & if so, did their feelings factor into the doomed "Sentinels" project where they clearly worked very hard to show Rick and Lisa as a loving, functional couple, or if it was just common sense character development.

[–] Fluke_Skywalker 8 years ago

I don't deny having nitpicks with MOS, and the incredibly dour & soulless BVS just gives me another reason to *finally* appreciate what the Reeve era Superman films, even the bad ones, did well, but like you I felt and still feel that the good in MOS outweighs the bad.

I give the bulk of the credit to Reeve. He was good even when the material wasn't. That said, at least those films had a sense of fun, wonder and adventure. Not a bunch of naval-gazing. And when all else failed, there was John Williams' perfect march. As big a Star Wars fan as I am, I still think that might be my favorite of Williams' amazing catalog of themes.

I still haven't read the Lord of the Rings books proper,



just read some of the differences, so whatever nitpicks I have with the films are with the films as films and not as adaptations of the books. Yet.

But I see what you're saying, and you can see it in comic book reboots, be they reboots of minor things are universe sweeping reboots, where you have to pick and choose between the stuff that is truly essential to the character(s) & overall story and the stuff that feels clunky or dated or just worked better 30 or 40 or however many years ago than they do today or regardless of time period what looks good in hand drawn animation what looks good done live, etc.

Absolutely. In the case of LOTR, there are just some elements that are aren't filmic and are better left for the page.

I think the vehicles and military costumes of Robotech could probably be adapted easily enough, while certain clothing fashions & hair styles (such as Rick Hunter's Goku hair) probably won't translate so well.

Yeah, aesthetically you'd have to tweak some things; modernize them/adapt them for live-action, but still capture the essence of the 'toon. I think you could render the Veritech almost exactly, but leave Rick's big hair and neckerchief/ascot back in the 80s.

I personally don't think that something like say Rick being a lifelong resident of Macross Island and childhood friend of Minmei, Max Sterling and Ben Dixon, with Minmei and Rick being a couple when the invasion starts, is the worst change to the mythology that a hypothetical reboot could make, but that's just me.

Not at all. And it would solve a host of story issues. You would have some outcry from longtime fans, but what percentage of your potential audience are they? And in the end, if it works out well, most will forgive and forget. I suppose my approach would be do what's best for the story. You'll never go wrong that way.

Yeah, I think most fans would agree that the original execution of the Minmei/Rick/Lisa plot, especially the Rick/Lisa aspect, would not go over well with a modern audience. It was like watching the Peter/MJ plot get flogged into oblivion in "Spider-Man 3" and that's definitely not the route they should take.

That's a great comparison. There's an apex to any such arc, and anything more is just diminishing returns.

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A journey into the realm of the obscure: http://saturdayshowcase.blogspot.com/

[–] DarthBill 8 years ago

I give the bulk of the credit to Reeve. He was good even when the material wasn't. That said, at least those films had a sense of fun, wonder and adventure. Not a bunch of naval-gazing. And when all else failed, there was John Williams' perfect march. As big a Star Wars fan as I am, I still think that might be my favorite of Williams' amazing catalog of themes.

Yeah, a lot of it really was down to Reeve and the down to Earth warmth he brought to the role. I think Henry Cavill has it, but the films just aren't giving him a chance to really showcase it as they're too busy going too far in the opposite direction.

Yeah, aesthetically you'd have to tweak some things; modernize them/adapt them for live-action, but still capture the essence of the 'toon. I think you could render the Veritech almost exactly, but leave Rick's big hair and neckerchief/ascot back in the 80s.

In a nutshell. Hopefully they wouldn't go too muted with the color schemes if a reboot or film adaptation ever got made. Not everything has to be gray, gray and more gray.

Not at all. And it would solve a host of story issues. You would have some outcry from longtime fans, but what percentage of your potential audience are they? And in the end, if it works out well, most will forgive and forget. I suppose my approach would be do what's best for the story. You'll never go wrong that way.

Agreed. Something like having Rick as a lifelong resident of Macross Island, childhood friend of Minmei, Max and Ben would quickly establish an emotional bond between those characters so that you can get on board right away & root for them as they try to survive, while still maintaining certain hero journey motifs like the call to adventure. It would also add more emotion & tension to the triangle of Minmei, Rick and Lisa if Rick & Minmei are already a genuinely loving & emotionally invested couple at the start of the series, and we watch a much more emotionally grounded & well rounded relationship between them fall apart as their lives take them in different directions.

Having said that, alienating the long time fans is not something you want to do, but at the same time you know you can't please everyone. Some longtime fans will give it a chance & some won't, and those that give it a chance still may not like it while those who may have been hesitant may change their minds & embrace it. In the end all you can do is aim at the widest audience possible and hope you win over enough of the long time fans (who after all have kept the franchise alive by sharing it with others) while also appealing to newer audiences who may not have grown up with the original.

That's a great comparison. There's an apex to any such arc, and anything more is just diminishing returns.

Thanks. And yeah, the Rick/Lisa angle got bludgeoned well beyond its apex and ultimately it didn't do the characters or the story any real favors.

[–] Fluke_Skywalker 8 years ago

Yeah, a lot of it really was down to Reeve and the down to Earth warmth he brought to the role. I think Henry Cavill has it, but the films just aren't giving him a chance to really showcase it as they're too busy going too far in the opposite direction.

Cavill does show flashes of it... when Snyder allows it. I wish someone like JJ Abrams would take over the Superman reigns. I think he'd steer the character back in the right direction.

In a nutshell. Hopefully they wouldn't go too muted with the color schemes if a reboot or film adaptation ever got made. Not everything has to be gray, gray and more gray.

Couldn't agree more. Other franchise already own that aesthetic. Keeping things colorful would help set it apart.

Agreed. Something like having Rick as a lifelong resident of Macross Island, childhood friend of Minmei, Max and Ben would quickly establish an emotional bond between those characters so that you can get on board right away & root for them as they try to survive, while still maintaining certain hero journey motifs like the call to adventure. It would also add more emotion & tension to the triangle of Minmei, Rick and Lisa if Rick & Minmei are already a genuinely loving & emotionally invested couple at the start of the series, and we watch a much more emotionally grounded & well rounded relationship between them fall apart as their lives take them in different directions.

Having said that, alienating the long time fans is not something you want to do, but at the same time you know you can't please everyone. Some longtime fans will give it a chance & some won't, and those that give it a chance still may not like it while those who may have been hesitant may change their minds & embrace it. In the end all you can do is aim at the widest audience possible and hope you win over enough of the long time fans (who after all have kept the franchise alive by sharing it with others) while also appealing to newer audiences who may not have grown up with the original.

I'm all for changing something if the change works better, and I'd wager *most* fans are too.

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A journey into the realm of the obscure: http://saturdayshowcase.blogspot.com/

[–] DarthBill 8 years ago

Cavill does show flashes of it... when Snyder allows it. I wish someone like JJ Abrams would take over the Superman reigns. I think he'd steer the character back in the right direction.

Yeah, Cavill totally showed glimpses of it in "Man of Steel", but Snyder, much like Singer before him, seems to equate Superman being a beacon of hope with "quietly & stoically going about his work while showing about as much compassion for humanity as a dude mowing his lawn."

I think Abrams did pitch a Superman script at one point, but I don't know if he was ever in the running for it, or if he'd even want to get involved in the mess team WB/DC has put themselves in. I think Kerry Conran could have made a good Superman film, even though I'm basing that on his only film: "Sky Captain & The World of Tomorrow".

Couldn't agree more. Other franchise already own that aesthetic. Keeping things colorful would help set it apart.

Verily. Hollywood needs to stop trying to Batman every non-Marvel-Disney product.

I'm all for changing something if the change works better, and I'd wager *most* fans are too.

Yeah, it's not impossible to improve on something, just difficult, especially when dealing with an iconic property.

I have to admit I'm not sure what changes if any I would make to the romantic subplots seen in "The Masters" and "The New Generation" portions of the story. I have only the vague inclination to flesh out subplots such as Marie Crystal & Sean Phillips while I'm pretty much content to leave the New Generation subplots alone as I have no problem with the back and forth bickering between Rand and Rook.

Well, perhaps room should be made for more scenes showing Scott Bernard bonding with Ariel, princess of the Invid, as well as more exploration given to Scott's relationship with his ill-fated fiance Marlene Rush. I wouldn't be surprised if a hypothetical reboot took the liberty of making Marlene a Veritech pilot alongside Scott and if they waited a few episodes before killing her, just so the audience could get a better feel for her and the relationship between her, not that what we do have is outrightly terrible.

[–] Fluke_Skywalker 8 years ago

Yeah, Cavill totally showed glimpses of it in "Man of Steel", but Snyder, much like Singer before him, seems to equate Superman being a beacon of hope with "quietly & stoically going about his work while showing about as much compassion for humanity as a dude mowing his lawn."

 Exactly. Both films were joy vacuums. With Superman, what makes us love him isn't that he can do all these amazing things, it's that he can do all of these amazing things, and he uses them to help people. With a smile. In case Mr. Snyder is reading, that's when the corners of someone's mouth turn upward and they flash their teeth.

I think Abrams did pitch a Superman script at one point, but I don't know if he was ever in the running for it, or if he'd even want to get involved in the mess team WB/DC has put themselves in. I think Kerry Conran could have made a good Superman film, even though I'm basing that on his only film: "Sky Captain & The World of Tomorrow".

Really a shame Conran seems to be persona non grata in Hollyweird these days. You talk about a labor of love, SK&TWOT is just that.

Verily. Hollywood needs to stop trying to Batman every non-Marvel-Disney product.

QFT.

Yeah, it's not impossible to improve on something, just difficult, especially when dealing with an iconic property.

I have to admit I'm not sure what changes if any I would make to the romantic subplots seen in "The Masters" and "The New Generation" portions of the story. I have only the vague inclination to flesh out subplots such as Marie Crystal & Sean Phillips while I'm pretty much content to leave the New Generation subplots alone as I have no problem with the back and forth bickering between Rand and Rook.

Well, perhaps room should be made for more scenes showing Scott Bernard bonding with Ariel, princess of the Invid, as well as more exploration given to Scott's relationship with his ill-fated fiance Marlene Rush. I wouldn't be surprised if a hypothetical reboot took the liberty of making Marlene a Veritech pilot alongside Scott and if they waited a few episodes before killing her, just so the audience could get a better feel for her and the relationship between her, not that what we do have is outrightly terrible.

My mental hard drive (Aka my brain) is so cluttered anyway, and it's been so long since I've dug into any 2nd and 3rd gen stuff (something I hope to rectify by year's end) that I'm just not equipped to even dissect it. They key is, as always, finding the right balance and giving everyone the correct amount of emotional turf to do their subplots justice and to then have those subplots serve the story at large.

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A journey into the realm of the obscure: http://saturdayshowcase.blogspot.com/

[–] DarthBill 8 years ago

Exactly. Both films were joy vacuums. With Superman, what makes us love him isn't that he can do all these amazing things, it's that he can do all of these amazing things, and he uses them to help people. With a smile. In case Mr. Snyder is reading, that's when the corners of someone's mouth turn upward and they flash their teeth.

With MOS I think Snyder wanted to put Superman in a roller coaster thrill ride, which wasn't necessarily a bad idea, but then came BVS where he went all Frank Miller on us...

Really a shame Conran seems to be persona non grata in Hollyweird these days. You talk about a labor of love, SK&TWOT is just that.

Yeah, it is. I loved SK&TWOT. Who knows, maybe one day he'll get to make another one based on cult fan love...

My mental hard drive (Aka my brain) is so cluttered anyway, and it's been so long since I've dug into any 2nd and 3rd gen stuff (something I hope to rectify by year's end) that I'm just not equipped to even dissect it. They key is, as always, finding the right balance and giving everyone the correct amount of emotional turf to do their subplots justice and to then have those subplots serve the story at large.

In the bold - yeah, it should always be about making sure all the characters are treated fairly and not prioritizing one over the other. I mean, look at the Harry Potter films, can you really say that Ron was treated fairly when compared to Hermione?

[–] Fluke_Skywalker 8 years ago

With MOS I think Snyder wanted to put Superman in a roller coaster thrill ride, which wasn't necessarily a bad idea, but then came BVS where he went all Frank Miller on us...

I can see the wisdom in BvS in theory. You want to start them off as antagonists who come together. And the whole "vs." thing is a good gimmick on paper. But it just connects to MOS like a Lego to a Lincoln Log.

Yeah, it is. I loved SK&TWOT. Who knows, maybe one day he'll get to make another one based on cult fan love...

Far lesser talents have gotten second chances.

In the bold - yeah, it should always be about making sure all the characters are treated fairly and not prioritizing one over the other. I mean, look at the Harry Potter films, can you really say that Ron was treated fairly when compared to Hermione?

Ron was clearly the subordinate character of the two dramatically. He was completely defined by his relationships to the other two characters and not really a character on his own.

[–] DarthBill 8 years ago

I can see the wisdom in BvS in theory. You want to start them off as antagonists who come together. And the whole "vs." thing is a good gimmick on paper. But it just connects to MOS like a Lego to a Lincoln Log.

Yeah, it felt like a forced follow up, which is too bad since it had some very potentially interesting ideas.

Far lesser talents have gotten second chances.

So true.

Ron was clearly the subordinate character of the two dramatically. He was completely defined by his relationships to the other two characters and not really a character on his own.

Yeah, Ron lost whatever nuance he had in the books when transitioning to film, where he was just a generic fumbling bumbling comic relief sidekick, which is too bad as it hurt his relationships with the other two.

Whoa, really veered off topic, haven't we?

[–] Fluke_Skywalker 8 years ago

Yeah, Ron lost whatever nuance he had in the books when transitioning to film, where he was just a generic fumbling bumbling comic relief sidekick, which is too bad as it hurt his relationships with the other two.

Yeah, which is to be expected I suppose. You have these 600-800+ page books that need to be condensed down into a 2 1/2 hour movie, so subplots are cut and some characters have to be simplified. I suppose Ron is the natural choice there, but it's still a shame, as he's a much more nuanced and far more interesting character in the books.

Whoa, really veered off topic, haven't we?

We'll call it a tangent .

[–] DarthBill 8 years ago

We'll call it a tangent .

I guess we can afford a tangent or two.

Wouldn't it be ironic if a Robotech reboot actually happened and somehow Minmei came off being more sympathetic than Lisa? All in the execution I suppose...

[–] Fluke_Skywalker 8 years ago

For sure it is. Hopefully--should they go the love triangle route--they can find a way to make both characters sympathetic and ultimately come off well. They don't need a villain there.

[–] DarthBill 8 years ago

For sure it is. Hopefully--should they go the love triangle route--they can find a way to make both characters sympathetic and ultimately come off well. They don't need a villain there.

Yeah, we really don't need a "villain", it just makes love triangles even more unpleasant.

[–] col_rutherford 7 years ago

I almost wonder if a Max/Miriya romance might not be shelved in a potential movie adaptation. So many such subplots are when things are adapted, and in the view of the filmmakers one romance might be enough.

I hope not. If anything, Max and Miriya should get more screen time instead of less. Their relationship was ridiculously rushed in the original animated series and had a lot more dramatic potential. Love is a major theme in Robotech. The show was as much a soap opera as it was a science fiction action epic. Besides the Max/Miriya romance and the Rick/Lisa/Minmei/Kyle love quadrangle, there was Lisa's pining for her MIA fiancé Karl Riber, Roy and Claudia's relationship, and the Zentraedis differing reactions to learning about love and sexual reproduction. Some Zentraedi like Dolza thought it was disgusting and corrupting, while others like Khyron and Azonia embraced it.

I can't see anyone having the courage to change the basic dynamics of that Rick/Lisa/Minmei love triangle. As frustrating as so many fans (including yours truly) find it, it is a pretty iconic part of that G1/Macross saga story.

If I were put in charge of it, I'd adapt it as a trilogy, and I would put the focus on the love triangle in the first two films, trying to eliminate its more annoying aspects.

I agree that a film adaptation of The Macross Saga would work best as a trilogy. The original story could be broken into three parts:

Part One: The SDF-1 is accidentally transported to the outskirts of the solar system and must travel back to Earth.

Part Two: Complications arise after the SDF-1 returns to Earth. The Earth is devastated in a climactic battle against Dolza's fleet.

Part Three: The crew of the SDF-1 and their Zentraedi allies attempt to rebuild on Earth and must deal with a Zentraedi uprising led by Khyron.

The Rick/Lisa/Minmei love triangle did seem to drag on too long, but it might not seem so bad if some changes were made to the script and it was condensed into three 2 and a half hour-long movies instead of thirty-six 24 minute-long episodes. The Macross Saga is a coming-of-age story, and I would show that Rick and Minmei both become stronger and wiser after going through life's trials and tribulations and making mistakes along the way. I think the main love story could be broken into three parts like the rest of the plot:

Part One: Rick becomes infatuated with Minmei when they are both young and immature. Lisa initially comes across as aloof, but we learn she had her heart broken after her fiance Karl Riber went missing.

Part Two: Rick and Minmei grow farther apart after she is reunited with her cousin Kyle and her entertainment career takes off. At the same time, Rick and Lisa grow closer and she is ready to love again.

Part Three: Minmei's relationship with the abusive Kyle has soured and she finds that fame isn't all its cracked up to be. She misses Rick and regrets taking him for granted. Rick and Minmei reunite, interrupting his blossoming relationship with Lisa. But Rick and Minmei find their lives have taken different paths and they can't go back to the innocence of youth. By the end of the story they have both matured and accepted their responsibility towards others. Rick realizes that his future lies with Lisa and the military, while Minmei lets him go and leaves to face tomorrow on her own.