MovieChat Forums > The Terminator (1984) Discussion > Predestination Paradox vs Multiverse

Predestination Paradox vs Multiverse


There has been much discussion here whether or not Terminator involves a predestination paradox where the future is already set and by going back in time you're just fulfilling it not changing it on any way vs the multiverse theory. With the predestination paradox, lets say somebody takes the complete works of Willam Shakespeare and goes back in time and gives them to William before he writes them. By doing so that person would be just fulfilling history where we have the works of William Shakespeare. In essence, the works of William Shakespeare would've popped out of nowhere. Some people say its the same way with Terminator that Kyle Reese is and always has been John Conner's father and that Skynet and all the technology derived from it came as a result of the company of Cyberdyne Systems reverse engineering the technology they got from the remains of the Terminator after it had been crushed. Following this train of thought that would mean that just like the works of Shakespeare that Skynet and all its technology popped out of nowhere as did John Conner.

Now according to the multiverse theory as in the case of William Shakespeare, somewhere in the original timeline that William really did create the works from scratch and that if somebody were to go back in time and give the works to him before he wrote it that they would just be creating or going into another universe where William was presented with the works before he wrote them. That would mean that John Conner did have an original father other than Kyle Reese and by Kyle impregnating Sarah he's just going into another universe where he is the dad. Also that would mean that Cyberdine originally did not get the Terminator technology from its remains but rather got it from elsewhere or created it from scratch.

So lots of people are suggesting that Terminator has the predestination paradox and that's supposedly what James Cameron intended at least originally but sequels do suggest otherwise and go in the direction of the multiverse theory.

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Good post. I'm just going to be honest, this entire movie franchise is very complex, putting it lightly, lol. I can understand what you're saying however, and at this point, I don't even know what The Terminator franchise wants us to believe. Genysis teased about the theories of multiverse, whereas The first Terminator film largely implies the predestination paradox. It's almost like they're saying "...we don't know how time travel works either!" I have the novels for The Terminator and T2 Judgment day, and in those novels, many signs were pointing to predestined chain of events; rather than the possibility of multiverse/parallel universes.

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I want to start by clarifying some terminology. Any time travel story where the act of time travel changes the past is based on the assumption that what we perceive as time comes from a dynamic and changing present, and that the future does not exist. The idea that parallel universes are generated as a result is just one theory about the possible consequences of such changes.

Time travel stories in which the act of time travel does not change the past are based on the idea that the past, present and future all exist simultaneously and are all essentially the same. We perceive time passing because we can only see a changing, three dimensional cross section of this four dimensional universe, but our perception that the universe itself is changing is an illusion.

J.M.E. McTaggart referred to these as the A-Theory and B-Theory of time, respectively, and I will use these terms as I find referring to A-Theory as the multiverse theory rather limited, and the term Predestination Paradox to be a little misleading.

That said, I see four ways to interpret the first two Terminator movies.

1: It's all A-Theory. The problem is that the story of the first movie falls apart under this assumption. In addition to plot details like Kyle being John's father, and the John giving him a picture of Sarah that we see get taken later, there is also the very narrative structure of the film. At the beginning, we're shown a Sarah Connor that is disorganized, unassertive and completely unlike the person Kyle describes. Over the course of the film, we see her become that person, and just when we see her transformation completed, then we are given proof of the nature of the story in the form of seeing the picture actually get taken, thus leaving us with a sense of inevitability as the movie ends. Trying to convert this into an A-Theory story requires creating reams of unconvincing fan fiction to try to explain what happened in the previous timelines.

2: It's all B-Theory. The original ending of T2 definitively proves that Cameron intended for his heroes to have changed the future. This wouldn't be possible in a B-Theory universe. But even without it there are other elements, such as Dyson being killed before creating the chipset that would've become Skynet that can only be explained away with more unconvincing fan fiction.

3: Cameron wrote T1 as a B-Theory story, then changed his mind and wrote T2 as an A-Theory story. The problem with this idea is that if Cameron intended for T2 to be an A-Theory story, then why would he incorporate strong B-Theory elements like the fact that Skynet would never have existed in the first place without being reverse engineered from the first Terminator's chip? Cameron chose to emphasize this fact by having Dyson say that the chip gave them ideas that they would never have come up with on their own. He also introduced John Connor as being no longer in a position to be trained by Sarah for the war, because John thought his mom was crazy. This was only resolved by the time travellers, which is clearly a B-Theory conceit. It does not appear as though Cameron changed his basic concept from the first movie.

4: Cameron took the idea that the time travellers were always part of the past, but grafted it onto a world view in which the future is not fixed. The idea the the future already exists and is therefore fixed and unchangeable seems to be a prerequisite for the idea that time travellers from the future have always existed in the past. However, some people tend to approach time travel theory as nothing more than arbitrary rules, like the ripple effect in Back to the Future, without considering the underlying theories about the nature of time that generate these rules. B-Theory tells us that their is no objective "present"in which events are occurring, but even so, we still have to experience these events at some point. When we do, we make decisions about how to respond to these events. Cameron is assuming that instead of our choices being predetermined and forced on us, we are free to make our own choices. Sometimes our decisions might change the future. This is why the phrase, "No Fate but what we make," is given as an explanation for Sarah's decision to try and kill Dyson. Later Sarah says that the future, always so clear to her before, is now like a dark road at night. Before the future was clear because she was following the predestined course of events described by Reese, but now she doesn't know what the future will bring.

There are also indications in the first movie that Cameron saw the future as changeable. He had Reese say at one point that he didn't come from the future, but rather from one possible future. It's easy to dismiss this as a red herring, especially since Reese himself immediately says that he doesn't understand it, but consider the implications. In an A-Theory universe, the presence of the Terminator and Kyle Reese would have changed the future. This means that Reese would have been wrong in saying that his future was still possible. Furthermore, in an entirely deterministic universe there would only be one possible future. According to A-Theory it would be a different future, in B-Theory it would be the same one, but multiple futures could only be generated by a non-deterministic universe, not by time travel. This fits our conception of a pre-destination paradox with a fixed past, but an indeterminate future perfectly. Reese also passes on a message about how Sarah has to be brave and this would arguably be unnecessary if her future was fixed so that she couldn't possibly not be brave. Plus there is also a deleted scene in which Reese uses the phrase, "No Fate."

None of these are definitive proof, but they all indicate that Cameron may have already been thinking of the future as changeable even when he wrote the first movie. Our only problem is in trying to reconcile the idea that time travellers from the future have always existed in the past with the idea that other possible futures also exist.

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In the sequel Kyle Reese does make a cameo where he appears to Sarah as a ghost and tells her to be strong. Im not sure if its in this scene where he tells her "no fate." The scene was cut from the theatrical release but it is in the special edition DVD. Another cut scene in the special edition is where Sarah tries to destroy the Terminator's chip but John stops her saying that they need him or "it" as Sarah calls him.

Im not sure if this is 100% canon but in some Terminator media its revealed that Cyberdyne Systems got the technology to build Skynet from Omni Consumer Products the company that built Robocop. If that's so than that would go against the predestination paradox or theory b. As it is Terminator and Robocop I believe both belong to Orion so they might be in the same universe although Im not sure about that.

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The deleted scene I was referring to is actually from the first Terminator movie. If you've got it on Blu-ray, or the Special Edition DVD, check out the "Sarah Fights Back" deleted scene. However I was slightly mistaken in that it was Sarah that said, "There's no fate but what we make," rather than Reese. She's trying to convince him to help her blow up Cyberdyne and prevent the war altogether. I'm pretty sure Reese does say "not fate" in the deleted dream sequence (not a ghost, but a a dream) that you're referring to in T2, but that's just part of Cameron retconning that phrase into his dialogue in T1 in order for the plot of T2 to work. The scene in T1 is more interesting because it indicates that he was already thinking that way when he wrote T1, rather than having changed his mind later to accommodate a sequel.

The only media to combine Robocop and the Terminator was the Robocop vs the Terminator comic series published in 1992, and the video games based on it for the SNES and Genesis. From what I remember, the idea was that it was Alex Murphy's mind that caused Skynet to become sentient in the first place. I thought this was a clever idea for a cross over between these two properties, but it's not really relevant to the movies. The existence of Robocop just doesn't work with the timeline of the Terminator movies.

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In the sequel Kyle Reese does make a cameo where he appears to Sarah as a ghost and tells her to be strong. Im not sure if its in this scene where he tells her "no fate."

That was in the first Terminator movie. John has Kyle memorize a passage that he recites to Sarah:

Thank you, Sarah, for your courage through the dark years. I can't help you with what you must soon face, except to say that the future is not set. You must be stronger than you imagine you can be. You must survive, or I will never exist.

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"Originally" another man was JC's father.
He grew up to lead the resistance. Skynet is defeated, but a Terminator is sent to kill SC; thus, JC sends a soldier to protect SC... who, in the new reset of history, becomes JC's father.

It is unknown what became of JC's real dad, or who he was.

Some claim, it's a closed loop time-line; others say a new universe is created with each change in the past;
but '11.22.63' has the answers. It's a reset of history.

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Some claim, it's a closed loop time-line; others say a new universe is created with each change in the past;
but '11.06.63' has the answers. It's a reset of history.

I have no idea what '11.06.63' is. Would you care to enlighten me?

"Originally" another man was JC's father.
He grew up to lead the resistance. Skynet is defeated, but a Terminator is sent to kill SC; thus, JC sends a soldier to protect SC... who, in the new reset of history, becomes JC's father.

When most people are writing their fan fiction, they acknowledge that the first Terminator movie would have to be at least the third iteration of the timeline. In the first iteration, John would have had no reason to give Reese a picture of his mother, nor would that specific picture have even existed without the events of T1. Furthermore, in T2 we find that Reese apparently gave Sarah the date of August 29th, 1997 for Judgement Day. The Terminator later gives the same date, yet the development of Skynet was accelerated by the chip from the original Terminator, so the original timeline would've had to have a much, much later date for Skynet. If Sarah got her information from a Kyle Reese from the original timeline, and the Terminator came from a timeline that was affected by the events of the first movie, then their dates shouldn't have matched.

This brings up another problem, which is Chaos Theory. Chaos Theory claims that if there's even a small change in a complex system, then the outcome will change more and more drastically over time. This is easy to test and demonstrate, so don't make the mistake of saying that it's only theory, and theories aren't proven so we can ignore it all we want. You don't want to end up sounding like a Creationist, do you? Anyway, if even a tiny change can drastically change later events, then what about the drastic changes to the life of Sarah, and the development of Skynet that the time travellers caused? The idea that this would lead to the same outcome down the line (Judgement Day, a John Connor led resistance, and the development and use of time travel by specific machines and one person in 2029) is so absurd and insulting to our intelligence that I can't understand how anyone can stomach watching Terminator 3, or the subsequent movies.

For that matter, I understand that a lot of people didn't pick up on the free will theme of T2, and consequently were left with the impression that it was time travel that changed the future in it, but if that's the case, then how could they stomach watching T2? I mean, from that point of view T2 is even more nonsensical than T3 because it contradicts itself with the whole first Terminator chip business, rather than just contradicting the previous movie. Even so, it still seems bizarre to try and impose this "logic" on the first movie which is pretty straightforward in its storytelling.

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"I have no idea what '11.06.63' is. Would you care to enlighten me?"

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2879552/

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Chaos Theory claims that if there's even a small change in a complex system, then the outcome will change more and more drastically over time.


This is a common problem in many time travel movies. A small change in the system could cause another sperm cell to impregnate another egg, resulting in a different child.

However, in term of this particular movie (ignoring sequels) there are a number of things that count in Johns favor. First, it is not crucial in any way that it is the exact same John in any of the iterations.

His mother is very adept at keeping her head during dangerous situations, knows that a nuclear war is coming and that her son could save humanity. With this knowledge, Sarah and son could train and equip themselves, maybe even prepare a militia for the future. She also had important tactical information, e.g. about the hunter-killers, terminators, disposal camps, barb wire, not to mention the crucial information that the enemy would try to develop a time machine to kill his mother before he was even conceived.

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The first Terminator movie only works as a predestination paradox.

3: Cameron wrote T1 as a B-Theory story, then changed his mind and wrote T2 as an A-Theory story.

This, basically.

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I agree with you that the T1 only works as a predestination paradox, but I've given some reasons above for why I think Cameron probably meant for it to have multiple possible futures, and even stronger reasons to think that T2 was also intended as predestination paradox with multiple possible futures. One of these futures led to the "original" timeline, while another one is what we see in the movie. Would you care to explain why you reject this idea and instead assume that the two movies written and directed by Cameron are inconsistent with each other?

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I definitely get the impression that their ability to change history in T2 was more of a deus ex machina than a further elaboration on how time-travel works in the Terminator universe. I don't think there's a "real" explanation in any real sense. It's my view that Cameron's two movies are B-theory + deus ex machina. It was sort of a forced happy ending that maybe kind of works and the ending wouldn't have been a surprise if we weren't working with the presumption of a predestination paradox (http://www.cracked.com/article_20467_5-overused-twist-endings-its-time-movies-to-retire_p2.html).

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Terminator's a predestination timeline and then they wanted to make a sequel so James Cameron changed it.

It's no more complicated than that.

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Oh man I have headache after reading through this thread . Maybe the Predestination vs Multiverse theories will be explored in T6? (it must have something extra that attracted Cameron to want to be involved and have a roomful of SF writers working on it. Also I remember Bryan Singer or the writer of XMen DOFP saying when he was working on DOFP he consulted Cameron about the time travel theories etc so maybe that and TGEN whetted his appetite to want to explore the theories in greater depth in a T6)

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or not

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