I can see in part what you are saying here, but I have to disagree in part.
<No because Waters actually has a basis for what he thinks. He had seen too many black men in the army treated like garbage.>
Hitler felt that he had a basis for what he thought about the Jews as well. In Nazi propaganda Jews were depicted as blood-sucking leeches, who treated Gentiles like garbage. Hitler actually believed this nonsense.
< How can you compare this character to Hitler? He was a coward. it was in his imgination that the Jews were the bad guys. Hitler did not want to protect his race. It needed no protection. Unlike the black man in the US Army. He wanted to his race to be the only race.>
Very easily. Both of them were willing to get rid of those that they percieved as threats to their race; with Hitler it was the Jews and other "non-Aryans". With Waters, it was 'geechies'. Now I will grant that in a purely objective sense, there was no threat to the German people from the Jews; the threat existed in Hitler's mind only. Hitler did want to protect this race, and he felt that the only way to do it was through what became known as the Final Solution. Of course Hitler wanted his race to be the only race; in his mind, this was the only way to protect them.
<Waters is not talking about ethnic cleansing he was talking about the mindset of the the black man who represented the Uncle Remus yessa black man. And yes that type of black man had to go if anything was to get better. Now I do not advocate killing anyone, and Waters was so filled of anger and self hate he could not see straight. But as far as the army was concerend people like CJ had no bubiness in it because his mindset was counterproductive if any chages were going to happen for the black man in the army.>
No, Waters was not speaking of ethnic cleansing here. In fact, I seriously doubt that Waters ever anticipated Memphis' suicide, and it hit him hard. Just the same, Waters was willing to destroy whomever he thought of as a threat to Black advancement. From what Waters told Memphis in the jail cell, he had done the same thing to others that he considered 'geechies', and make no mistake; these men were effectively destroyed. Being a Black man with a record and dishonorable discharge in the 1940's was destruction.
Waters' hate at least before the suicide, was not directed at himself, it was pointed at 'geechies'. He thought that by getting rid of Memphis, he would be geting rid of a problem, but the plan backfired when Memphis hanged himself. Not only did Waters blame himself, the company blamed him as well. As a result, Waters had to cope with the full realization of what he done, not only to Memphis, but I imagine the other men whom he had set up as well, and the guilt ate him up.
Also, it was not the army that had the problem witih people like Memphis; the army liked people who were anxious to please, who obeyed orders. No, the problem for 'geechies' was not the army; it was people like Waters who saw them as impediments to Black advancement.
<And remember Peterson said that was the same reason Waters had to go. he called him a yessa negro, a copy cat n*gg*er who they had to get rid of. Peterson wasn't really torn up about CJ, he was mad because he thought Waters was the white man boy.
So do you compare Peterson to Hitler too? People tend to overlook the fact that Peterson and Waters were very much alike. They both thought people who they felt adversly affected black people shoukd be gotten rid of. But Peterson was I beleive very wrong about his belief because in reality him and Waters both wanted the same thing. That it why I do not think for one moment Peterson cared about CJ because deep down inside CJ also represented a black man who could only do harm as far as black people moving ahead in the army.>
I see Petersom somewhat differently. My impression is that he did like Memphis, but that he was very much put off by Memphis' incredible backwardness. I think that Peterson saw Waters primarily as extremely abusive, a bully who destroyed whoever got in his way.
Also, I do think that Peterson saw Waters as threat to the race much as Waters finally saw himself.
And no, I do not compare Peterson to Hitler. What Waters did to Memphis (and presumably the others that he set up) was planned out with great care. What Peterson did was a crime of opportunity. The right set of circumstances, a much hated man who was essentially helpless, and a strong desire for revenge, not only for himself, but for all the abuses that the company suffered at Waters' hands, and the sense that they could get away with it, all combined at just the right time, and Peterson availed himself of an opportunity that might not have presented itself again.
So, yes: Waters was similar to Hitler in some ways.
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marbleann
17 years ago
I understand what you are saying but Hitler was not a thinker. He had nothing to loose if he never started the Nazi movement. His enemy was a imaginary one. While Waters was not. He knew that for black people to move up n ranks and to be treated better in Army the CJ's had to go. And he was right. I cannot tell you how much I detested the CJ character.
I really think Peterson was put off by what he percieved as Waters being a Tom. He even stated that. That was his complaint about Waters he thoughr Waters was doing the white mans deeds. So I still believe Waters and Peterson were the same type of person the fact that Peterson reverted to violence makes him no better then Waters what so ever. He took care of Waters the same way Waters took care of CJ.
Actually I believe Peterson was worse then Waters. I believe Waters put CJ in the stockade so he will learn not to be such a fool, a Tom. He will learn how the white soldier will humiliate him in that stockade and to get him out of the army. But CJ was weak just like Waters thought and he killed himself. I think he was surprised he died but in any case he wanted him out of the army and that in the end is what he got.. Peterson actually took a gun and became judge, jury and executioner of a man that he if did take the time to know him would of realized they both detested the same type of black man. Then to top it off he runs like a coward.
Waters who was all by himself had learned how to deal with the white man in the way he did to survive. You cannot tell me that the things Waters was saying about CJ wasn't right. He was right. Yes CJ was nice in a Jethro Boudine way. But the last thing black soldiers needed in the Army was a black Jethro Boudine.
Waters IMO actually took a very pro active African American stand, the problem is the way he went about trying to make the point. His anger and self hate was so much in conflict with the ways he reallly felt he was abusive. This was a black man who felt black people should be educated and do good, but he was forced because of his job not to practice the very thing he preached.
What was Petersons problem? He felt free to express how he felt, that is why Waters liked him. So what does Peterson do, he self destructs. And now he will be forced to serve in the same prison Waters has been in for the last 20 plus years. The moral of the story is very very depressing to me. I never felt the story was really about who shot John. It was about how no matter how much a black man wanted to break the cycle of black men being a Tom. Racism was such a destructed entity that in the end the feelings of self hate and anger that effected many black people will not allow that to happen. The cycle of anger will have to stop first. Look at the Captain and how calm and cool he was and still was defiant, the person Waters wanted to be. Think of the Irony that it took Waters being killed for him to get his wish.
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gary_overman
17 years ago
I can see a lot of what you are saying here, and wil have to concede that you are probably right about Peterson's feelings towards Memphis. I had thought that he just did not like Memphis' backwardness, but the more I think about it, it was difficult to separate the man from the backwardness. Peterson did not kill Waters because of what he did to Memphis; he killed him because of what Waters did to the company. He spoke up when Waters was going after Memphis, because it finally dawned on him what Waters was.
Waters was in the process of self-destructing eventually anyway. What Peterson did by firing that 45 was simply to finish the job. But in doing so, he sowed the seeds of his own doom. I don't believe there is any question as to what Peterson's fate would have been, as the Articles of War (the military law until the UCMJ was adopted in 1947-48) only provided two possible penalties for murder: life imprisonment or death. Being a Black who killed his superior in time of war, I seriously doubt that his court-martial would have opted for life imprisonment.
I am curious about something. Have you known people like Memphis? I have. About 20 years ago when I worked at Boeing in Renton, Washington, there was a Black man whom I spoke to rather frequently. I rather liked the man, as he was very nice and super pleasant, but he was also extremely lazy. I never quite understood why the other Blacks did not care for him until one day when I saw this man in the midst of some White co-workers. What he was doing was lying on his side on the concrete floor, barking like a dog, and the Whites were laughing up a storm at his antics. I remember being very disgusted, and thinking to myself, 'My God!! Have a little bit of dignity!' And now that you bring up the feelings that Peterson and Waters had towards Memphis, the two remind me of each other.
Anyway, I transferred out of that shop to another program, and eventually moved back here to Kansas. This guy was the only 'geechie' that I ever met.
How about you?
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marbleann
17 years ago
I agree with you about Petersons fate. Not only that the other guy too. So not only did Peterson self destruct like Waters was doing he took 2 people with him. Waters and the guy that was with him.
I do not know why every time I see this movie with the last few years I would love to see the movie about Jackie Robinsons Court Marshall along with it. I think because Robinson representewd what Waters wanted out of the black soldier and what he wanted to do himself but was too beaten down by racism and full of self hate to do it
I have seen quite a few people like Memphis. I have seen black people who have smiles on their face just like Memphis and then carry on in front of white people like they were fools. Things like telling jokes about black people and undercutting black people while laughing along with the white man. This behavior was at its height durng the OJ trial. There were black folks out there who felt the need t tell white people that they thought OJ was was a killer just like they did. Not bedcause they realy thught he was guilty but because they felt that is what they wanted to hear. I really cannot tolerate peope like that. I have more respect for a racist who at least understands the concept of loving their race, before I would a present day Memphis.
I also have very ambivilent feelings about some shows which have black people as the stars like the Flavor of Love and I Love NY. Who is those shows really for. Why does the MTV networks have these shows on tv. It kind of reminds me of the movie Bamboozeled. Did you ever see that? It is about how TPTB who run the networks will atually show a minstral show degrading to black people because they know that is what white people and some black people will love to see on TV.. To me Flavor Flave and the I love NY women are just as bad as Memphis. or worse because it is just about making money And as long as it makes money degredation is ok. I think Menphis came from a different time and he like the man who got his throat slit hadn't a clue about his behavior.
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spencede
17 years ago
Sgt. Waters to Hitler? I can’t believe that I read a post so idiotic. Sgt. Waters can in no way be compared to Hitler, only a person with a warped mind would think such a thing. Comparing Sgt. Waters to Hitler because Sgt. Waters had pride in his race and despised any person in his race that made his race look bad, well 75% of all black men over the age of 30 feel the same way as Sgt. Waters about their race. Your comparison is hideous and embarrassing also. You are comparing 1 man who had killed millions of innocent people to 1 man who participated in an act that I deemed justifiable!! There is no comparison.
Remember, the day of the gechie is gone.
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marbleann
17 years ago
I am glad to see that other people understand that Waters really was black man who wanted to see more. People tend to thnk of him as a villian. I do not. I think of him as a black man who was fustrated by the system and hoped that the black men who followed him would do something to change it. I do not advocate his actions but I understand where he came from. God I get frustrated and angry just listening to people like Armstrong Williams or Larry elder. Imagine the anger and the fustration that a black man in the army had to endure during the first half of last century. And along comes a Jethro Boudine AKA Memphis. I can see that Waters was so angry that he didnt stop to think he was probably some poor sharecropper who acted the way he did to survive too. He just saw a clown. And I did too I wanted to reach through the screen and do a El Kabong. But come to think of it Larry Riley did such a good job in that part I thik that is the way we werre suppose t look at at. Adolph Ceaser had such a tour de force performance he ate the scenery up, but Riley's acting sould not be over looked.
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gary_overman
17 years ago
<You are comparing 1 man who had killed millions of innocent people to 1 man who participated in an act that I deemed justifiable!! There is no comparison.>
Before I respond to your post, I want to make sure that we are talking about the same thing here. What exactly was this "justifiable " act?
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spencede
17 years ago
I have my reasons for quantifying it a justifiable act, but believe me you would NEVER understand
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gary_overman
17 years ago
I think that you misunderstood my question, sir. WHAT act was justifiable? There are a couple of actions depicted in the film that are legally and ethically questionable. What one are you talking about?
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dlamontjenkins
15 years ago
I wouldn't either. As far as I'm concerned, that was NOT a justifiable act, and no amount of reasoning should ever change that.
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austin_legacy
17 years ago
T<<hings like telling jokes about black people and undercutting black people while laughing along with the white man. This behavior was at its height durng the OJ trial. There were black folks out there who felt the need t tell white people that they thought OJ was was a killer just like they did. Not bedcause they realy thught he was guilty but because they felt that is what they wanted to hear. I really cannot tolerate peope like that. >>
Hello, Marbleann,
I'm black and feel (after considering the evidence presented and reading of books written by both sides) that OJ is guilty. Cmon, people are entitled to their opinion. Are we not evolved yet to be able to point out a wrong because the perpetrator is black? There's no need to search out any white people to tell them that I agree with them on this issue. But if the conversation ever comes up, I'm very honest and vocal about it. Many blacks feel that OJ committed this crime and it has nothing to do with pleasing whites.
Sorry to temporarily hijack the thread guys!
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spencede
17 years ago
Sir I understood your question entirely, I would like to answer your question but I still don’t think that you will understand my reasoning behind my answer, Due to the fact that I am sure that we were raised in different cultures and environments my answer would be misunderstood or taken the wrong way. You stated that "There are a couple of actions depicted in the film that are legally and ethically questionable" I guess that the questionable part would suffice as my answer to the incident at the Cafe Napoleon with the soldier
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gary_overman
17 years ago
<Sir I understood your question entirely, I would like to answer your question but I still don’t think that you will understand my reasoning behind my answer, Due to the fact that I am sure that we were raised in different cultures and environments my answer would be misunderstood or taken the wrong way. You stated that "There are a couple of actions depicted in the film that are legally and ethically questionable" I guess that the questionable part would suffice as my answer to the incident at the Cafe Napoleon with the soldier.>
I think I can understand where you are coming from a little better now. If this was not what you were talking about, please let me know, but what the soldier did at the Cafe Napoleon was beyond disgusting. So I can at least understand what Waters and the other soliders did in this case, even if I don't necessarily condone it. This soldier was paid to act like a fool, and his actions totally undermined what the rest of the men were trying to accomplish; indeed, had accomplished.
You may think of what I am going to say as a distinction without a difference, but I don't see what Waters did to Memphis in the same way. Memphis was acting like he had acted all his life, not just before the White man, but all authority figures in general, including Waters. He was raised this way; it was his way of getting along, and I think it was wrong for Waters to set him up, to 'frame' him like he did by having Wilkie to plant the gun. And no matter how you slice it, this was just plain wrong. This is one reason why I liken Waters to Hitler. Both men did evil things in pusuit of what they condsidered to be a higher goal.
However, there is a very major difference between the two, and it is this: Waters was addressing very real grievances, while Hitler's grievances were imaginary; the product of his very twisted mind.
However, this does not excuse what Waters did to Memphis, and by extension, the other men that I believe he set up in similar fashion at other military bases.
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marbleann
17 years ago
Oh don't get me wrong I think he is guilty too. And I was very vocal about it. I think he did it and I think he did it all by himself. I felt that OJ was abusing that woman because he thought if he had a white women next to him he would feel better about himself and when he found out that was not going to do the trick he started beating her. You see that a lot.
My father who at the time was a NYPD Homicide Detective said from day one he did it but the cops blew it and he would never be convicted. He truely believed that once Mark Furman was introduced that was the end of it and that the DA had a weak case. I agree. Listen they can't even convict Robert Blake over in LA or whoever killed Natalie Wood.
I was talking about people who were saying he was guilty simply because they thought it was something the white people wanted to hear. They were doing that to undercut black people. By saying I am not like those black people who think OJ is guilty I am a different black person a better one. Mind these were the same people who would tell black people that he wasn't guilty. These folks are the apoligist for the black race.
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austin_legacy
17 years ago
Marbleann-
Kudos to your family members who have served this great nation. I have one grandpa who served in WWI (I don't know what he did), a grandfather who served in WWII and my dad is a Korean War Navy vet. I can imagine that it was pure hell serving under the conditions they had to, yet they did it anyway.
BTW, this is one of my favorite films.
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spencede
17 years ago
gary_overman I humbly apologies to you. You do understand and you were totally correct on my feelings regarding the soldiers at the cafe Napoleon, I can defiantly understand their anger. Waters was defiantly wrong in framing C.J. Memphis do you have any suggestions on how in that area of time he could have gotten his point across to C.J. in another way? As to your reference to Waters and Hitler I still think that it is a huge difference between the two. Thanks for your response.
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gary_overman
17 years ago
<gary_overman I humbly apologies to you. You do understand and you were totally correct on my feelings regarding the soldiers at the cafe Napoleon, I can defiantly understand their anger. Waters was defiantly wrong in framing C.J. Memphis do you have any suggestions on how in that area of time he could have gotten his point across to C.J. in another way? As to your reference to Waters and Hitler I still think that it is a huge difference between the two. Thanks for your response.>
And I thank you for your very kind words. Right now, I have to go away for a little bit, but I'll be back and discuss this with you further.
You are a gentleman.
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gary_overman
17 years ago
<And I thank you for your very kind words. Right now, I have to go away for a little bit, but I'll be back and discuss this with you further.
You are a gentleman.>
Waters not only framed Memphis, but I rather strongly suspect that he framed a number of other soldiers as well, from his conversation with Memphis in the stockade. Was there any other way to get the message across to Memphis? Of course there were. Waters could have counseled Memphis and worked with the man, teaching him that behavior such as he (Memphis) was engaged in was inappropriate. Sergeants do this all the time. If, and only if, it became clear that trying to teach him proper behavior was not working, then perhaps an honorable separation from the service could have been arranged.
It must be remembered, however, that this took place during the Second World War. Military manpower needs were acute, so separations were not given lightly. Still, I rather suspect that Waters would have been court-martialled had his superiors known what he had done to Memphis.
Now, for the part that got your attention: my comparing Waters to Hitler. In late February, 1933, the Reichstag (the German Parliament building) burned to the ground. A Dutch Communist was found inside and the Nazis used this as an excuse to pass the Enabling Act that suspended civil liberties, establish the concentration camps, etc. After the war, the Allies found records that showed rather conclusively that the fire was set by the Nazis themselves. Without the Enabling Act, the Nazis woould never have been able to get the power that they needed to achieve their rather twisted objectives. Without the Reichstag Fire, the Nazis would never have passed the Enabling Act.
Wilkie's planting the gun was Waters' Reichstag fire. Without the gun and Waters accusing him of using it, Memphs would never have played into Waters' hands by slugging him.
Hitler and Waters both wanted to protect and/or advance their races, both were willing to use fair means or foul to do this. Both were only too willing to destroy people that threatened their objective. In Hitlers's case, it was the Jews; in Waters' case it was 'geechies'.
Obviously there were differences as well. Big differences. Hitler did not have a conscience; Waters, it seems, did. Hitler escaped justice by killing himself, showing no remorse; Waters could not cope with what he had done to Memphis and began to slowly drink himself to death. It is my impression that Waters actually welcomed the bullet that killed him. Any thoughts on this?
Again, thank you for your very kind words and I look forward to further discussions with you.
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marbleann
17 years ago
Thanks. My family served in all of them except the Korean My fahter and Uncle were in WW2 though. I can't imagine either. I understand the Navy really fought intergating the troops.
But to serve and come back home and to still treated like second class citizens and for them to remain patriots really tells you of their fortitutde. And to top it off they never get proper credit for their achievements like the white soldiers did, until they are dead or almost dead. Even though we all heard of the The Tuskegee Airman they officially just started getting medals and reconition.
I remember a few years ago they were talking about how it was the black troops that liberated some of the Concentration Camps. White soldiers tried to fight that fact tooth and nail because from the day it happened they got credit for it. Now the truth came out they went crazy. So even 60 years later they still would try to deny the achievement of black soldiers.
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spencede
17 years ago
Gary
As you stated in your earlier post C.J. Memphis was that way all of his life and I don’t think that counseling would have changed that and recommending a discharge because he was a backwoods hick would not have taught him anything. I don’t have the answer for C.J. but the look on his face when the sarge was talking to him it appeared that he got the message that Waters was trying to deliver.
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blackurbanprince
16 years ago
No comparison to Hitler in any way. Hitler was pure evil with maybe Stalin only being worse. In many ways I find Sgt. Waters’s character very sympathetic. I often feel the same way when I look at Obama only to contrast it with a horrible stereotype minstrel show such as T-Pain, Young Jock, ect. I wonder what a Sgt. Waters character would think if he is alive right now and tuned in to BET. Those Geechies don’t have anything on the pure mindlessness spectacles that goes on BET. Dr. King and Malcolm X have to be turning in their graves.
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