MovieChat Forums > A Nightmare on Elm Street (1984) Discussion > Donald is an outrageously negligent fath...

Donald is an outrageously negligent father


Nancy never should have been left with a drug addicted mother who also had severe chronic depression and obsessive-compulsive disorder. Donald should have arranged to get full custody of Nancy and Marge should have been committed. I couldn't believe that Donald just stood by all those years while his child's life became more and more endangered, especially when Marge turned her house in to a prison. On that topic, I thought that the scene where it was revealed that Freddy had killed Nancy's sibling could have been left in. It was probably why Marge started drinking, and offered an explanation for the woman's fixation on Freddy, which the theatrical cut did not.

reply

Parental failing is an often explored theme in the Nightmare On Elm Street films.

In this particular instance, it makes the film's climax more interesting. It leads to Nancy having to face Krueger alone.

reply

[deleted]

Realrockerhalloween and hurricanehorton, I know those things, but can't help pointing out the realism from a clinical point of view. Moreover, while I understand why Wes Craven would want Nancy to deal with Freddy alone, I think that he actually distracts the audience from the true terror that is intended for the final portion of the movie. It's not particularly noticeable upon a first viewing because then you are only focused on whether or not Nancy will live, but after that one might move to wondering why the girl is even in such an environment. Marge's exaggerated, unstable power interferes with Freddy to a degree.

reply

[deleted]

Realrockerhalloween and hurricanehorton, I know those things, but can't help pointing out the realism from a clinical point of view. Moreover, while I understand why Wes Craven would want Nancy to deal with Freddy alone, I think that he actually distracts the audience from the true terror that is intended for the final portion of the movie. It's not particularly noticeable upon a first viewing because then you are only focused on whether or not Nancy will live, but after that one might move to wondering why the girl is even in such an environment. Marge's exaggerated, unstable power interferes with Freddy to a degree.


Sadly, there probably are families like this in real life.

It doesn't detract anything from the film for me.

reply

She seemed okay at the beginning of the movie. It was when the murders started up and her recognizing Freddy's handiwork that she started to become unhinged. So maybe there was nothing to indicate Nancy shouldn't be with her mother during the years after the separation?

Top Ten Classic Horror Movie Working Titles - http://landowonder.com/top-ten.html

reply

No, Marge is not okay in the beginning of the movie. Even then it is clear that she has severe problems. She just gets worse as the story goes on.

reply

Drug addicted mother? I haven't seen this in a few years but I thought she just drank a lot.

reply

Faridah, alcoholism is a drug addiction. Since there are unsafe items in her medicine cabinet, it can be assumed that Marge has also abused other types of drugs.

reply

drug
1. Therapeutic agent; any substance, other than food, used in the prevention, diagnosis, alleviation, treatment, or cure of disease. For types or classifications of drugs, see the specific name.

Farlex Partner Medical Dictionary


There are only 4 types of food in existence, and alcohol (ethanol) is one of them:

- Fat (~9 food calories per gram)
- Ethanol (~7 food calories per gram)
- Carbohydrates (~4 food calories per gram)
- Protein (~4 food calories per gram)

reply

MaximRecoil, alcohol is not a food, it is the fermented product of certain types of food. Drugs naturally exist in some foods. Myristicin, which is the psychoactive portion of lysergic acid, is in nutmeg, cinnamon, parsley, and dill.

reply

>MaximRecoil, alcohol is not a food

False. The fact that alcohol has food calories proves you wrong. Only food has food calories, obviously. I already listed the only 4 substances in existence which have food calories (which means those are the only 4 substances in existence from which the body can derive energy).

>Drugs naturally exist in some foods.

Alcohol itself is food; specifically, it is a nutrient.

>Myristicin, which is the psychoactive portion of lysergic acid, is in nutmeg, cinnamon, parsley, and dill.

Myristicin is not food.

reply

Yes, alcohol has calories, but is not a food in itself. It is just part of foods and drinks and can only stand alone as a category for calories, not for consumption. Meat and dairy are types of protein, and potatoes are a sort of carbohydrate, but beverages are alcoholic, alcohol is not a beverage. Since the matter is reversed, alcohol is a dependent ingredient. In this case, there is a difference between being a source of food energy and literally being food. As alcohol is a secondary substance and relies so heavily on the liver, its calories cannot be fully used by the body unlike the other three kinds. Alcohol is a depressant and causes intoxication. It is a drug. I have not said that myristicin is food. I am pointing out that drugs can naturally occur in foods, but that does not make those substances foods.

reply

>Yes, alcohol has calories, but is not a food in itself.

You just contradicted yourself. Only food has food calories, obviously. All matter has "calories", but only four substances in existence have "food calories" (a "food calorie" being a kilocalorie, with the "food" part indicating that we can ingest it and derive energy from it, unlike, e.g., a piece of glass).

If you were actually correct (you aren't, obviously), that would mean that something other than food can be used to ward off starvation, which is hilarious. The most fundamental definition of food is any substance from which our bodies can derive energy. That's because food's primary and most critical function is being an energy source.

>It is just part of foods and drinks and can only stand alone as a category for calories, not for consumption.

What are you talking about? Alcohol is food, just as fat is food, and protein is food, and carbohydrates are food.

>In this case, there is a difference between being a source of food energy and literally being food.

Again, hilarious:

"any nutritious substance that people or animals eat or drink, or that plants absorb, in order to maintain life and growth."

What do you need, first and foremost, to maintain life and growth? Energy. What is the only source of energy for the body? Food. What's a nutrient?

"Definition of nutrient
: furnishing nourishment"

What is nourishment?

"Definition of nourishment
1 a : food, nutriment"

Ethanol is food, by definition.

>As alcohol is a secondary substance and relies so heavily on the liver, its calories cannot be fully used by the body unlike the other three kinds.

"Secondary substance" has no standard definition in this context; consider it dismissed. And calories can never be fully used by the body, regardless of the source; all nutrients have a "thermal effect of food" (TEF), meaning the net energy is up to ~30% less than the amount of calories consumed. (continued below)

reply

However, since alcohol is such a potent food (almost twice the calories of protein or carbohydrates per gram), the net energy for alcohol is almost 6 calories per gram, which is still more than protein or carbohydrates even before they are reduced by TEF.

Our bodies specifically evolved the ability to derive energy from alcohol:

"But thanks to enzymes in our gut, and particularly one called ADH4, we can make use of the calories in alcohol. And, according to a new scientific paper, we gained that ability a very long time ago, at a critical moment in our evolution."

http://ww2.kqed.org/bayareabites/2014/12/03/our-ability-to-digest-alcohol-may-have-been-key-to-our-survival/

The abstract to the paper mentioned in the quotation is linked to on that page, or you can click here - http://www.pnas.org/content/112/2/458.abstract

>Alcohol is a depressant and causes intoxication. It is a drug.

Yeah, except, food is specifically exempted from being a drug. That's because all food (not just alcohol) would fall under the definition of a drug if not for the exception. For example, this is a highly generalized definition of "drug":

"a medicine or other substance which has a physiological effect when ingested or otherwise introduced into the body."

Food is definitely a substance which has a physiological effect when ingested. That's why the better definitions, such as from the medical dictionary I quoted from, specifically exempt food from the definition of "drug". Also, any substance can cause intoxication, including water - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication. That's because:

"All things are poison and nothing is without poison; only the dose makes a thing not a poison." - Paracelsus, "Father of Toxicology"

>I am pointing out that drugs can naturally occur in foods

And that's irrelevant. Alcohol isn't a drug, because it's food. There is no other substance in existence that's commonly called a drug, which is food.

reply

MaximRecoil, if you oppose contradictions, then don't provide ones.  You claim that I am wrong for saying that alcohol has calories but is not food, yet admit that foods are not the only things with calories.  Also, if everything is poison, then what difference does its dosage make regarding its classification?  Using a small amount of poison will not change the fact that it is poison.  I have not made the slightest suggestion that something besides food can prevent starvation; do not put words in my mouth.  Food is not the only source of energy for people.  We also get it from sleep, sunlight, water, and air.  Just as propoxyphene comes from methadone but is not methadone, alcohol comes from food but is not food.  Since alcohol comes from sugar it retains its calories, but is not food because it is only a product of sugar and needs to be combined with other substances before someone is able to drink it.  That is why it is secondary to food and sits in its own category as the only drug with food calories.  Poison is something that our bodies do not require and has the ability to kill us even when used typically.  Matter that we need can cause death only when abused.  Humans can live without alcohol but not water or solid food.  Therefore, food is not poison.  You are jumbling all of your details, but your extreme reliance on the statements of the rest of the world tells me why that is so.  If you need to ask what I am talking about then you have picked for yourself the wrong argument, which is now exhausted.

reply

>MaximRecoil, if you oppose contradictions, then don't provide ones. You claim that I am wrong for saying that alcohol has calories but is not food, yet admit that foods are not the only things with calories.

Is that a joke? I said:

"All matter has 'calories', but only four substances in existence have 'food calories' (a "food calorie" being a kilocalorie, with the 'food' part indicating that we can ingest it and derive energy from it, unlike, e.g., a piece of glass)."

"Calorie" is just a unit of measurement for energy, like BTUs (British thermal units), or joules, or tons of TNT, or watts, etc. For example, a gallon of gasoline has ~29,000 kilocalories (~115,000 BTUs, ~121,331 kilojoules, etc.), but it has exactly zero "food calories", because the body can not derive any energy from it whatsoever. As I've already said, there are only 4 substances in existence which have "food calories": Fat, alcohol, protein, and carbohydrates.

>Also, if everything is poison, then what difference does its dosage make regarding its classification? Using a small amount of poison will not change the fact that it is poison.

You don't know what you're talking about, and you clearly didn't understand the quote from Paracelsus. There's no such thing as a substance which is a poison at the smallest possible dosages, i.e., there's no such thing as a substance which can intoxicate you at a dosage of one atom or one molecule.

Read this - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2246629/

Pay particular attention to the following:

"Even arsenic, the poison of choice for many fictional murderers, is now close to qualifying as a micronutrient in animals"

And:

"extrapolations from mammalian studies suggest that humans might need between 12.5 μg and 25 μg of arsenic."

And:

"This is, to some extent, academic; a normal diet will contain 12–50 μg of arsenic in most parts of the world" (continued below)

reply

So arsenic is obviously not a poison at such low dosages, given that a normal diet in most parts of the world includes such low dosages of arsenic, and it may even be an essential nutrient.

>I have not made the slightest suggestion that something besides food can prevent starvation; do not put words in my mouth.

Is that another joke? Alcohol, due to having food calories, can ward off starvation. You said that alcohol isn't food, which means that you have said that something other than food can ward off starvation, which is hilarious.

>Food is not the only source of energy for people.

LOL! This is blatantly, obviously, and demonstably false. Food is absolutely the only source of energy for people.

>We also get it from sleep, sunlight, and air.

No, we absolutely do not. Sleep, sunlight, and air input exactly zero energy to your system. They do absolutely nothing to ward off starvation. What are you, a "Breatharian"?

>Just as propoxyphene comes from methadone but is not methadone, alcohol comes from food but is not food.

I've already established that alcohol is food by definition, so consider your mere gainsaying dismissed.

>alcohol comes from food but is not food. Since alcohol comes from sugar it retains its calories

Again, you don't have a clue about what you're talking about. Alcohol has almost twice the food calories of sugar (which is a carbohydrate): 7 food calories per gram for alcohol vs. 4 food calories per gram for carbohydrates. "Retains its calories"... lol... and adds some calories too, right? Congratulations, you've discovered free energy! Get ready for your Nobel Prize! Of course, in reality, alcohol does not come from sugar, it comes from yeast (single-celled organisms in the fungus kingdom). They metabolize sugar/carbohydrates and their waste products are alcohol and carbon dioxide. It can also come from ethylene hydration, which doesn't involve sugar/carbohydrates at all (continued below)

reply

There are also other methods of producing ethanol which don't involve sugar/carbohydrates at all.

>and needs to be combined with other substances before someone is able to drink it.

False. There is nothing preventing anyone from drinking pure ethanol.

>That is why it is secondary to food and sits in its own category as the only drug with food calories.

There's no such thing as a drug with food calories, because anything with food calories is food, by definition, and food is specifically exempted from being a drug, by definition.

>Poison is something that our bodies do not require and has the ability to kill us even when used typically. Matter that we need can cause death only when abused.

I've already addressed your comical misconception of "poison".

>Humans can live without alcohol but not water or solid food.

You can live without carbohydrates too, but that doesn't mean carbohydrates aren't food.

>Therefore, food is not poison.

Good grief. Whether or not a thing is a poison depends on the dosage. Every substance in existence can be a poison or not be a poison, depending on the dosage. This is a well-known fact of toxicology, as famously pointed out by Paracelsus hundreds of years ago.

>You are jumbling all of your details

This is comically ironic, coming from the hilariously confused ultracrepidarian. Your laughable assertions include: something other than food can ward off starvation; we get energy from sleep, sunshine, and air; alcohol comes from sugar and "retains its calories"; food is not poison; people are unable to drink pure ethanol; something can have food calories but not be food, and so on. You're not even remotely qualified to be in this argument.

reply

Hey man, it was the 80s! That's how parenting was.

reply

So True

reply

Another thing to remember is you are seeing the end of it, when everything is obvious.

reply

McQualude, the movie does not wait until its end to show that Marge is mentally unstable. It is obvious early in the story.

reply

I meant the end of the story, not the movie specifically. In real life those kind of changes often happen gradually so it's not like one day she's fine and the next she's an alcoholic lunatic mother. It was a thing that happened over years which she probably hid from her family. People are very adaptable, the abnormal becomes the normal when it happens gradually over a period of time.

reply

Oh, I see what you mean. Even so, Marge's perspective would not match those of people around her, especially her daughter who has endless curiousity about details.

reply

It's been awhile since I've seen it but I'm thinking of watching it this October.

reply

Wow so you blame the father for the sins of the mother.

reply

No, crc32, I blame him for not taking responsibility for his daughter which includes protecting her from her unstable mother.

reply

Yea thats what I said. Your blaiming him for his mothers actions.

reply

This is about Donald and Marge who are Nancy's parents. I have not said anything about Donald's mother.

reply

i meant the mother not donalds mother. I woud agree with you but your argument sounds onesided in that marge isn't being held accountable for her own actions..

reply

Do you realize that in your previous post you mention Donald's mother? Of course I blame Marge for what she does, but the point is that Donald is Nancy's father and should take care of his daughter since Marge is unfit to do so.

reply

I think, in characters, both of Nancy's parents were unfit. Why? I think her mother spent time escaping, while her dad just tried to ignore it all. If I had nightmares and some wacko with five knive-fingered gloves after me, I'd wish to be Nancy, and set up booby traps! The whole thing I feel sets up a good film (I like Ronee Blakley and John Saxon as performers in general, so being just bad parents I felt helped the film out!:-).
My question is, what is the difference between escaping and ignoring?

reply

I agree somewhat, gluserty, but Donald ignores his ability to take care of Nancy much more so than he ignores her as a person. Since Marge is the custodial parent, Donald awkwardly stands in the background. If Nancy's father lived with her, then he would probably not smother himself in work. My criticism is that Donald has the potential to raise his daughter but does not apply it, whereas Marge is incapable altogether.

reply

I agree, the Donald character did demonstrate some parental skills (when I meant he ignored it all, was that there wan't really a threat, when there was), and I believe you're right on the custodial situation too. I mean, even in his job, when he thought the Rod Lane character was a danger, he was there. I mean, all her mom did was bar the windows (essentially making her a prisoner in her own home) and tell her the evil truth about the neighborhood (useful information though). Yeah, thanks mom; you've could've at least baked some brownies, instead of just saying, "locked, locked, locked":-).
Then again, Nancy's mom did take her to a dream therapist (the future Roger Rabbit!).

reply