Ok, stop with the "racist movie" thing - Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom (1984) Discussion

[–] Karl Aksel 8 years ago

It is not a movie about “Indian people”, but a fictional story about a thugee cult.
We all know (the film makers included) that Indians don’t “eat snakes or monkey brains". It's just a comedic scene from an adventure movie, depicting the habits of a deranged group of people.

Not how it comes across, though. If they had left in the scene in the script where Indy is puzzled at the very un-Hindu-like behaviour of these people, then you could use that argument. As it is, however, these particular cultists are not presented as being separate from Indian culture. The Thuggees were a real cult, and part of Hindu culture - they were not by any means "deranged". This movie presents Kali as monstrous, and the cultists as evil - without making any effort to show them as different from the historical cultists. Subsequently, these fictional cultists are not represented as being "false" Hindus. The movie portrays, quite simply, that this is how Kali was/is worshipped. I am personally not offended, but I understand how Indians might be.

If we think that way, we could say that the 1st and the 3d Indy movies are racists against German because it depict Nazis ?!

Completely different comparison. First of all, it does depict - indirectly, through Indy's comments - German soldiers as nazis, and even that much is unfair. But it doesn't really depict German soldiers in such a way as to make one say, "no German was like THAT". They were generally not portrayed as much different from any other person in uniform. They weren't really portrayed at all, with the exception of officers with speaking parts.

Now, if the nazis in the Indy-movies had been portrayed as, say, salivating cannibals who liked to impale children for fun, then one could - and certainly would - be outraged at the portrayal of German soldiers.

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[–] thylacine80 8 years ago

these particular cultists are not presented as being separate from Indian culture.

Of course they are ! A crazy bunch of deranged people, eating monkey brains, looking for sacred stones and killing people in a remote palace are not "Indian people".

The Thuggees were a real cult, and part of Hindu culture - they were not by any means "deranged".

The Thugee were a real cult, killing and robbing people on the road. Just as nazis were a real ideolgy, killing innocent people.
None of these groups (Thugees in India and nazis in Germany) are representative of the country.

This movie presents Kali as monstrous

Wrong again. This movie depicts the Thugee cult as monstrous. Not the deity.
Just as islamists are monstrous, allah is not...

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[–] Karl Aksel 8 years ago

Of course they are ! A crazy bunch of deranged people, eating monkey brains, looking for sacred stones and killing people in a remote palace are not "Indian people".

Says who? This movie makes no attempt to say as much.

The Thugee were a real cult, killing and robbing people on the road.

Yes, but they were a religious cult, with very strict rules, and they were absolutely part of Indian culture. This movie makes no attempt whatsoever to separate the movie cultists from historical cultists, and that's why the movie presents the bad guys as belonging to Indian culture.

Wrong again.

Take a look at that statue.

This movie depicts the Thugee cult as monstrous. Not the deity.

Where, in the movie, does anyone so much as hint that they are worshipping Kali the wrong way?

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[–] thylacine80 8 years ago

Says who? This movie makes no attempt to say as much.

Says I. We're here to talk about our feelings about a movie.
So yep, "I" do say that in a movie depicting a group of deranged criminals, the entire population of the country the criminals are in is not involved.

The godfather is not sayin that "Italian American people are gangsters".

they were a religious cult, with very strict rules, and they were absolutely part of Indian culture.

Just the same as Christians were "culturaly" violent during the crusades or the muslims used to be warriors.
Fortunately, if we make a movie about a crazy group of deviant christians or a secret muslim cult, it is still not about Arabic people or christian people...

Take a look at that statue.

All right, enough of that. I'm not gonna start a virtual fight over a film. You shouldn't be offended by different opinions.
Different opinions happen.

Let's just leave it there. Take care, and have a good day.

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[–] Karl Aksel 8 years ago

Says I. We're here to talk about our feelings about a movie.
So yep, "I" do say that in a movie depicting a group of deranged criminals, the entire population of the country the criminals are in is not involved.

Ok, that's your opinion. Now explain how the movie portrays the cultists as anything other than Hindu.

Just the same as Christians were "culturaly" violent during the crusades or the muslims used to be warriors.
Fortunately, if we make a movie about a crazy group of deviant christians or a secret muslim cult, it is still not about Arabic people or christian people...

The Christians were culturally violent, yes - and that would be a fitting generalisation, not just applied to crusaders. And ditto Muslims, of course. Society was harsh. Now, the thing about the Thuggee is that the ones in the movie bear no resemblance whatsoever to the historical Thuggee. Nor does Kali in the movie resemble in any way Kali of the actual religion.

All right, enough of that. I'm not gonna start a virtual fight over a film. You shouldn't be offended by different opinions.
Different opinions happen.

Huh? If you wish to concede the point, fine, but I fail to see how I was supposed to be "offended" at any point in this thread. On the contrary, you were the one who started this thread with an air of indignation, which you continued with your brusque "wrong again". And now you are accusing me of being offended by different opinions?

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[–] Trax-3 8 years ago

The godfather is not sayin that "Italian American people are gangsters".

Well, but they are not brown people (at least not brown enough).

Thou shall not make negative depictions of brown people - that's racist.

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[–] kmags84 8 years ago

Bing, Bong, Bip, Bang, Pow!

Nailed it. The straws will be grasped but that's the fact of the matter. I'm a very Liberal Guy when it comes to these matters but it's a fictional story, with fictional people in a different time and it's allowed Cinematic Liberties to tell the story. Spielberg is not a man looking to rip apart a Culture.

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[–] Educator07 8 years ago

Like Birth of a Nation (1915)? By your reasoning if some Confederate Apologists and Sony produced a movie set during 1864 in which freed blacks (speaking ebonics, eating watermelon, and committing crimes) begged to return to their former masters because "slavery wasn't all that bad" (minus the being raped and whipped thing) African Americans shouldn't be upset because it's fiction and occurred in a different time.

Bull crap. Esp. considering there are whites that are selling a narrative that slavery really wasn't all that bad. 

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[–] kmags84 8 years ago

Are you really comparing 'The Birth of a Nation' to TOD?? Keep grasping at those straws. Foolishness

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[–] kmags84 8 years ago

And while Slavery still exists in Africa, let's point at a film from 1915, with far more Literal Racist INTENTIONS. I swear, it's like people who call Viva La Cuba a Documentary rather than Propaganda. There are lines in the sand. Where Reality and Fiction are separated. Story Telling Vs FORCED Narrative.

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[–] BooBooCat (652) 4 years ago

Literal Racist INTENTIONS

Thank you.

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[–] BooBooCat (652) 4 years ago

Your comparison is really not fair. Those two situations aren't equals. One is a cult which, as far as I know, wasn't exploited. Slavery was human exploitation and was a huge abuse.

Your example is flawed because clearly comes with a oppressive intention, the lther doesn't.

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[–] BooBooCat (652) 4 years ago

I agree with you.

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[–] joe_538 8 years ago

As it is, however, these particular cultists are not presented as being separate from Indian culture.

Not even when it's pointed out the thuggees aren't even supposed to exist anymore? It's pretty plain they're deviating from the cultural norms, and what "should be" for India in 1935.

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[–] Karl Aksel 8 years ago

Not even when it's pointed out the thuggees aren't even supposed to exist anymore? It's pretty plain they're deviating from the cultural norms, and what "should be" for India in 1935.

They're not supposed to exist anymore because the British wiped them out - not because of cultural evolution. The Thuggees were part of Hindu culture, and at no point does anyone say that "this is not what the Thuggees were like!" Just the opposite, in fact: when they are watching the ceremony from their concealed position, Indy says "nobody's seen this for a hundred years" - meaning we are to take it this is what an actual Thuggee ceremony looked like - that this sort of ceremony was part of Hindu culture.

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[–] buddyboy28 8 years ago

If they had left in the scene where Indy is puzzled at the very un-Hindu-like behaviour of these people, then you could use that argument

I hate the PC brigade getting offended by everything but I can't disagree with this.

Harrison Ford and Steven Spielberg themselves have said it was insensitive to Indian culture.

Just a little look of disgust or shock from Indy would have prevented the racism accusations I think.

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[–] Arvin-G-Borkar 8 years ago

Some of what you said is kind of false.

Thuggies were real, but were not Hindu. Thuggie was a belief, a Muslim belief. Since Indians could be Muslims or Hindu, it WAS part of Indian culture.

I just wanted to set that straight.

Mola Ram even says "The Hindu God will fall", so clearly Kali was suppose to be a Muslim God. The actual thuggie did not associate with Kali as their God. I am thinking the actual God was Allah, however, they did not use it in the movie because the Western world would probably have trouble associating Allah with India (that is just my take).

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[–] Karl Aksel 8 years ago

Thuggies were real, but were not Hindu. Thuggie was a belief, a Muslim belief. Since Indians could be Muslims or Hindu, it WAS part of Indian culture.

I have no idea where you got this from. Kali is a Hindu goddess, not a Muslim one. The Thuggee venerated Kali - it was a Kali death cult.

Mola Ram even says "The Hindu God will fall", so clearly Kali was suppose to be a Muslim God.

No, you are completely wrong. He says the Hebrew god will fall. This is what he says:

The British in India will be slaughtered. Then we will overrun the Moslems. And then the Hebrew God will fall and finally the Christian God will be cast down and forgotten.

Note the part in bold. In the actual script, they even have a further tidbit which did not make it to the movie:

The British in India will be slaughtered. Then we will overrun the Moslems and force their "Allah" to bow to Kali. And then the Hebrew God will fall and finally the Christian God will be cast down and forgotten.

Go, see for yourself if you don't believe me.

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[–] Arvin-G-Borkar 8 years ago

"Go, see for yourself if you don't believe me."

In the words of Mola Ram "You don't believe me? We will make you a true believer."

Yeah, I did look at the script and I was confusing the real life of what they were to what the script in the movie was. From what I have read about them, they were a band of criminals who were largely Muslim, however, some Hindus did join it early on.

So weird though, I always hear Mola Ram saying Muslims instead of Hebrews. Could I be prejudiced? YIPE!!!

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[–] Karl Aksel 8 years ago

"Go, see for yourself if you don't believe me."

In the words of Mola Ram "You don't believe me? We will make you a true believer."

Even as I wrote that quote above, I couldn't help thinking of those words by Mola Ram myself. And pedant that I am, I have to correct you a little bit:

"You don't believe me? You will, Dr. Jones. You will become a true believer."

Yeah, I did look at the script and I was confusing the real life of what they were to what the script in the movie was. From what I have read about them, they were a band of criminals who were largely Muslim, however, some Hindus did join it early on.

Yes, though it may have originated as band of Muslim bandits, it evolved into a Hindu cult - though there were Muslim members as well, throughout the existence of the Thuggee. How they managed to reconcile their faith with Kali-worship, however, I have no idea.

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[–] ghostly_host 8 years ago

Nobody said Raiders or Last Crusade are racist because it is within political correctness and social norms to depict white people as evil. TOD depicted some Hindu people as evil and therefore politcal correctness demands the film be attacked.

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[–] BooBooCat (652) 4 years ago

☝️☝️

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[–] Arvin-G-Borkar 8 years ago

lol

India was offended and thus why they had to shoot in Sri Lanka. Both Spielberg and Ford even confirmed that. Additionally, Kali is an actual south Indian goddess AS WE SPEAK and is being used for a polar opposite religion (representative of what Christians think of Satanists). Then you throw in the fact that their food consists of bugs and Indian people, Shiva believers, live in villages and are ugly (you have to admit that village elder was ugly).

The reason those other movies were not as prejudiced was because those were ethnic groups still considered to be under the umbrella term "white". You may not think people do not think certain things about Indian people; however, it gives them more ammo. They could bring up the fact that Indians DO have child labor (they do in rural parts), their beliefs are close to demonic (Western views do think Paganism is Satanic), are poor (most of India is in poverty), and their food could be made from grinding bugs (let's be real, to an uneducated American, most of the food is pureed and could be made from it if they do not like the taste nor the look).

It is a basis of making fun off another culture, if in the wrong hands. Indians are the laughing stock of the west with people still thinking they own quickie marts (thanks APU from the The Simpsons), smell like curry (derogatory remarks), wear dots on their heads (women do and some men after prayer ceremonies), AND A NEW ONE, they are somehow associated with terrorists.

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[–] thylacine80 8 years ago

Then you throw in the fact that their food consists of bugs

In the film, it is not "indians" who are eating bugs but a deranged group of criminals.

You may not think people do not think certain things about Indian people

In the film, it is not "indians" who are believed to be certain things but a deranged group of criminals.

It is a basis of making fun off another culture

In the film, it is not "indians" we are making fun of, but a deranged group of criminals.

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[–] Karl Aksel 8 years ago

In the film, it is not "indians" who are eating bugs but a deranged group of criminals.
In the film, it is not "indians" who are believed to be certain things but a deranged group of criminals.

They are never presented as "not Indians", nor were any at the banquet portrayed as "deranged". We don't even know if all the guests - who ate their fill - were part of the cult. They could just be visitors, like the British colonel. That is certainly what I always assumed these people were, and they did not think there was anything strange with the menu.

In the film, it is not "indians" we are making fun of, but a deranged group of criminals.

No. No attempt is ever made to portray the cult members as anything other than Indian Thuggees. The Thuggees were real - they even point that out in the film - and they were Indian people. However, the Thuggees in this movie are not portrayed with any historical accuracy. Kali, an important deity in India, is misrepresented, yet the movie gives no indication that this is not the normal way to worship Kali. And considering Kali is venerated today, this does reflect on Indian people. Just because the movie doesn't come across this way to you, doesn't mean it doesn't come across that way to others.

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[–] thylacine80 8 years ago

They are never presented as "not Indians", nor were any at the banquet portrayed as "deranged".

They are indians just as nazis were German or terrorists are arabics.
It doesn't mean it's "insulting" toward arabics or german, because of course arabic and german people are not terrorists or nazis.

And yes, of course people eating bugs, ripping people's heart, killing archeologists and practicing child slavery are "deranged".

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[–] Arvin-G-Borkar 8 years ago

I think you are missing minority vs. majority.

Nazis WERE German. If the majority are that ethnic group, they WERE German. Now if the majority were some other ethnic group, say Polish, then they would not be German. In the same note, not all Germans were Nazis. If you wanted to make that claim, I would agree.

All I see here is some sort of denial that what the movie portrayed was not offensive. I mean obviously people were offended because the associations were very close to what a real culture thought, believed, etc.

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[–] Karl Aksel 8 years ago

They are indians just as nazis were German or terrorists are arabics.
It doesn't mean it's "insulting" toward arabics or german, because of course arabic and german people are not terrorists or nazis.

Indeed, the Thuggees in Temple were not portrayed as representative of Indians in general. But they were Indians, and they were also portrayed as Kali worshippers. And Indy had every opportunity to point out that "this is not how Hindus venerate Kali, this isn't even how the Thuggees venerated Kali" - instead, he does just the opposite, confirming that this is what Thuggees did: "Nobody has seen this in a hundred years".

And yes, of course people eating bugs, ripping people's heart, killing archeologists and practicing child slavery are "deranged".

No, none of that is "deranged", that is a wrong use of the word. You may use "illegal" and "wrong according to existing norms" (and nowhere is the eating of bugs illegal, and some places perfectly common), but "deranged" denotes mental illness.

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[–] Arvin-G-Borkar 8 years ago

It takes place in India. The maharaj is wearing a headdress of a Sikh. Sikhs are Indians. We cannot "deny" that Indians are not through association when these "group of criminals" dress just like them and believe in the same God, only the polar opposite of what Kali actually stands for.

It is the same as saying that there is a cult of Indians who believe in Kali, in bad light. They are still Indians. To make more sense, ISIS is still Middle Eastern; even though, they may not be true Muslims. To say they are not, take away how they dress, what they believe in, and how Mola Ram has a dot on his head. If you take those away, then maybe they are no way associated with Indians.

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[–] thylacine80 8 years ago

It takes place in India. The maharaj is wearing a headdress of a Sikh. Sikhs are Indians

Yep. Just the same way movies about nazis often take place in Germany, with nazis being Germans.
That doesn't mean it's "racist toward germans".

They are still Indians

Yep. And so what ?
Bad people in fictions are depicted as black, white, arabic, chinese, muslims, men, women....why would it be an exception for "indian" ?

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[–] Arvin-G-Borkar 8 years ago

Of course it does. You are exploiting a negative aspect of German culture, just as thuggies were negative aspect of Indian culture. This was why Indians found it offensive. IT WAS a part of Indian culture, Indians would not deny that; however, if you are using it to also fictionally associate it with a God that they revere, even today, it is prejudice. They threw in Shiva and even as nothing bad was said about him, through association, it was in bad light.

I think it may be your sole opinion of what line one would have to cross for it to be prejudiced. There were obvious reasons why many Indians found it offensive. There is an Indian here, who found it offensive. The government of India found it offensive. Spielberg and Ford both thought it was offensive. lol

Because Indians were the most recent ethnic group to be introduced into Western culture. I have no idea if this was the first movie where Indians were used in Western media; however, Indians may not exactly have the best relations with the west either. IDK.

Going of the previous comment, what I think probably ticked them off was probably the British dude in the movie. They worked hard to gain their independence and then put back into the light of being rule again by the British.

With your last comment, you are comparing broader "races" with ethnic groups. I really hate the word "race". Blacks would mean African Americans and yes, they could be portraying them in bad light, however, they are more use to it. I mean blacks made the U.S. as well, involved in the culture. They believe they are a part of it, so they have a say when they are in movies. Arabic, maybe that is why their off shoot radical versions of them hate the West now. LOL Chinese are mostly seen in a good light. Jackie Chan? Who would no want to be seen as a fighting ninja?

It could also be that India has a competing Bollywood and so if they want to make fun off themselves, it should have been done under their studio and their direction.

British rule, for them, I am sure is a sore topic. This movie looks VERY comparable to India. Even the script was written with Indians, their customs, and a REAL INDIAN GODDESS in mind. Thuggie was a real rebel group and it was composed of both Hindus and Muslims, another sore topic.

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[–] thylacine80 8 years ago

Of course it does.

Oh, I see... A movie about german nazis is "racist toward Germans" ??!...

OK...I don't even know what to say here. We completely disagree. Users will judge.

Take care.

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[–] Arvin-G-Borkar 8 years ago

Prejudiced is a better word. Race needs to be thrown out.

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[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Blueghost 7 years ago

Eh, you write what you know. I don't think anyone was putting down Indians in this film. Indy happens to be a white guy from the US who is thrown into some societies that are trying to play catch up with the west in terms of technology.

That's just the way it was back then. It wasn't as colorful nor over the top as in the movie, but movies are movies. Unless someone was putting down Indians or Chinese or whoever, I wouldn't sweat it.

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[–] Blubonnet_Spearman 7 years ago

The Indians can get stuffed. It's just a silly movie. If they're so worried about this they're obviously very insecure

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[–] mcremp (52) 5 years ago

Written above: "Bad people in fictions are depicted as black, white, arabic, chinese, muslims, men, women...."

That was true in 20th century. Now, non-white villains are strictly forbidden.

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[–] BooBooCat (652) 4 years ago

What a great time to be alive.. 🙄

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[–] PaladinNJ (20308) 5 years ago

Does anybody in this thread seem to take into account that Mola Ram's group is an extremist cult and not depictive of typical Indian culture? Even the villagers were afraid of them.

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