MovieChat Forums > Friday the 13th: The Final Chapter (1984) Discussion > Jason was always a "Zombie" *spoilers*

Jason was always a "Zombie" spoilers

posted 9 years ago by TonyC4444
35 replies | jump to latest

I've read in numerous places and seen other people talk about this and I wanted to put this out there because it annoys me. Whether you want to use the term Zombie or whatever, the movie makes it pretty clear that Jason was always dead. He died when he drowned in the lake, and I'll use NUMEROUS examples from the first four films to illustrate my point. Obviously NUMEROUS spoilers ahead for the first 4 movies.

Number 1) The mother went completely BAT *beep* crazy because her son died. The whole "chi chi chi ka ka ka" thing is ACTUALLY "ki ki ki ma ma ma" and represents Jason telling her to kill people in her mind. She also a few times speaks as if he were inside of her telling her to kill the counselors. I'm not suggesting there is anything supernatural about this (though who knows, maybe there is), she's just completely crazy. People DO tend to go crazy when their kid dies, ESPECIALLY if they believe that death was due to negligence, this is normal I think (though the killing probably isn't normal, but not outside the realm of belief either). Wouldn't make any sense at all for her to go THAT crazy if her kid didn't actually die.

Number 2) Jason comes plying out of the water at the end of number 1, and he's severely decomposed. People like to make the argument that this was all a dream which is completely absurd. They showed the ripples in the water at the very end of the SUGGESTING that Jason was still there AND we had 11 movies after this one showing he's still around. The SIMPLE answer is he came out of the water after her because he saw her kill his mother. Otherwise what we are talking about is one hell of a monumental coincidence that she just HAPPENED to imagine Jason coming out of the water 2 years (I think) before he would later appear and start killing people.

Number 3) People don't catch a machete to the clavicle and then get up and start running around and killing people again. You know who does that? The undead.

Number 4) People don't get hung, hang there for a minute (and probably snapped their neck on the way down) and then all of a sudden wake up and pull themselves off the rope. You know who does that? The undead.

Number 5). People don't catch an ax to the forehead and take a nap for a few hours, only to wake up later and start walking around like nothing happened. You know who does that? The undead.

Number 6). People don't catch a machete clear through their head and are still alive on there way down to the ground like he did at the end of 4, and they certainly don't continue moving around afterwards like their thinking about getting back up. You know who does that? The...hell the undead don't even do that, that's all Jason.

I also want to point out the absurdity of believing he didn't drown. I can't think of a plausible scenario where a mentally retarded child goes under the water and nobody ever sees him come back up and he doesn't drown. You what, want us to believe that this mentally retarded child who couldn't swim "very well" (according to his mother) some how managed to get out of the water without anyone's knowledge and then go on to survive in the woods all alone with out anyone's help? I mean we're talking about a mentally retarded little boy hunting, fishing, foraging for food that isn't poisonous. Doesn't make any sense at all. It's actually more believable that he died and came back from the dead, I would probably believe that in real life before I would believe that he managed to survive on his own in the wilderness.

I know there are probably NUMEROUS other examples in the first 4 films but I think I've made my point. The guy was always dead, he died in the lake and then came back. I'm assuming after his mother died but who knows maybe not, maybe before.

By the way, I am right behind you.

[–] recklesscow 9 years ago

I, too, am of the opinion Jason was always undead. It always bugged me that people consider Zombie Jason to make his appearance in part 6. No normal human being would have survived part 2, much less parts 3 and 4. At the end of 3, he has a massive shoulder wound from the previous film that was never even stitched up (he would either bleed out or get an infection), a stab wound to the leg, a broken neck, and an ax to the head. Yet he's still running around killing in the next film. At what point do these people think he stopped being a regular human and became a zombie? I mean jeez.

[–] TonyC4444 9 years ago

Exactly. Completely illogical.

By the way, I am right behind you.

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

I tend to agree. Remember in part 6, Tommy Jarvis states that Jason had drowned in 1957, in Ft13th part one.

In part 4, he's even in the hospital and the medical people have declared him dead, yet he somehow revives.

Undead all the way.

[–] 9 years ago

[deleted]

[–] westing000 9 years ago

This is why I think the end of Jason Takes Manhattan is really cool. To me, it's the perfect wrap-up to the supernatural elements of the first eight films. But I think they overdid it in Jason Goes to Hell...

[–] 9 years ago

[deleted]

[–] YankeeDood 9 years ago

Hey zombie hipster, Jason was not a zombie. Zombies eat flesh and are killed with a bullet to the head. Neither apply to Jason.
He is no more of a zombie than a werewolf is.

"That was close."
"Close to what?"

- Rocky (Phantasm III)

[–] TonyC4444 9 years ago

That's why the word Zombie is in quotation mark, the definition of a Zombie is simply a re-animated corpse. Jason fits that, but he has no other qualities that we typically see in other zombies.

By the way, I am right behind you.

[–] MisterBabadook 9 years ago

He wasn't always a zombie, even the director of 6 says it the first appearance of zombie Jason in Jason Lives. Paul's campfire tale in Part 2 tell you everything, "Some sort of demented creature surviving in the wilderness full grown by now stealing what he needs living off wild animals and vegetation".

The legend is Jason survived his drowning and disappeared into the wilderness to live alone and survive in the wild. If he was always undead he wouldn't have grown into a man he would have been an undead boy killing people. Plus in parts 2 3 and 4 he's hurt plenty of times and feels pain, when Chris stabs him in the leg in part 3 he groans in pain, part 2 he gets kicked in the balls and groans and falls down. A zombie or undead creature wouldn't be affected by any of that.

Its not until part 6 Jason lives where he doesn't feel pain anymore. He felt pain in parts 2-4 cause he was human, in part 6 he became a zombie and could be shot and not flinch.

Yes he survives fatal wounds and stuff that would normally kill a regular guy. But its a horror movie the killers in horror movies always have an uncanny ability to survive. In the Stepfather at the end he gets stabbed in the heart and yet he's alive in the sequel with just a scar. Michael Myers is shot, lit on fire and keeps ticking, is he a zombie too? Michael, Jason and Freddy all have a supernatural ability to survive.

In part 4 he gets a machete chopped into his head and he dies, he doesn't get up from that, his finger moves slightly but that doesn't mean he was getting ready to stand up and pull the machete out of his head. He's dead and buried for years after part 4 and is a rotting corps when Tommy digs him up. I don't see how anyone would think he was undead in parts 2-4. Also you can clearly see him breathing plenty of times in parts 2-4.

The ending of Part 1 is definitely a dream, Sean Cunningham and everyone that worked on the movie tell you the end is a dream. The trickle in the water is just a "Was it actually a dream" hint but it was a dream. Why else would the cops be staring right at her when Jason pops up and then claim they didn't see a boy? Mrs Vorheese was telling her about how he drowned and her mind dreamed that up. Besides how would he suddenly grow into a full grown man in the span of 2 months then go and kill Alice?

Thats what i love about these high school girls, i get older they stay the same age.

[–] TonyC4444 9 years ago

"He wasn't always a zombie, even the director of 6 says it the first appearance of zombie Jason in Jason Lives. "

So what. He wasn't involved the original in anyway and even if he were the artists opinion is only an opinion (I'm a writer myself). When you take the first four films as a collective they very clear spell out that he's a zombie (well, SOME form of zombie anyway) and I already mentioned how.

And if we ARE going to listen to the artists involved, then go back and watch the Crystal Lake Memories documentary, the guy who wrote the first movie said that Jason was dead.

"The legend is Jason survived his drowning and disappeared into the wilderness to live alone and survive in the wild."

There are a few things wrong with this though, I mentioned them in the OP but I'll list them again. How in the hell does a kid start drowning, and then manage to disappear with out dying and nobody noticing him getting away? Think about that for a moment, let's assume that people KNEW he was drowning and couldn't get to him quick enough to save him, they SAW him drowning but didn't see him get away?

Now let's assume nobody saw him drowning, why did everyone assume he drowned to begin with? Imagine that conversation "Mrs Vorhees your son drowned." "Did you see him drown?" "No, we're just assuming he did." Sounds stupid doesn't it? Someone MUST have seen him drowning. But let's take it a step further, let's say nobody saw him drowning, but they all just magically knew that he did drown. Why in the flying sam's *beep* would Jason go live in the woods instead of returning to camp? If he's just to stupid to know any better, then he's also to stupid to live off of the land. If he's intelligent, then he would have went back to camp or made his way home, he wouldn't have lived for 10+ years in the woods while his mother was still alive.

Legends are born out of reality, but that doesn't make them truth. This particular legend was partially correct, Jason was still walking around, the only part the counselor got wrong was the "still alive" part.

"Its not until part 6 Jason lives where he doesn't feel pain anymore."

And? We've already established he's not like other Zombies, he's not stupid or mindless at any point in time through out the entire series. Not sure what pain has to do with anything at all. He has a functioning brain, brains feel pain. After 6 his body had been decomposing long enough to no longer feel it. Seems like a simple enough explanation.

"Yes he survives fatal wounds and stuff that would normally kill a regular guy. But its a horror movie the killers in horror movies always have an uncanny ability to survive."

bahahahahahahahha. You can't come up with a logical (and I want to re-iterate logical) explanation for him living through all that *beep* so you resort to "well it's a movie," I call shenanigans. Yes it's a movie, Zombies don't exist in real life either, but every other human being with in the movie dies from wounds that Jason clearly would have lived through. It's established with in the universe. So either Jason is a super zombie, or he's a super human being. Either way it's supernatural before 6, as he's clearly unlike anyone else in the franchise.

"I don't see how anyone would think he was undead in parts 2-4."

Then you didn't read the OP, go back and read it and you'll see how I came to that conclusion.

"Also you can clearly see him breathing plenty of times in parts 2-4. "

You clearly see him breathing several times during and after part 6 as well. That was one of the famous things Kane Hodder brought to the character, that really deep chest heaving breath. This is really a silly statement, I can easily forgive the error if you haven't seen any of those movies in a really really long time, but if that's the case maybe you should go watch them again before trying to argue about this series.

"The ending of Part 1 is definitely a dream,"

You're right about this, after watching the franchise again and then watching Camp Crystal Lake Memories I saw Cunningham say that. That was after I wrote the OP. This doesn't retract from any of the other points I made though.

By the way, I am right behind you.

[–] MisterBabadook 9 years ago

There are a few things wrong with this though, I mentioned them in the OP but I'll list them again. How in the hell does a kid start drowning, and then manage to disappear with out dying and nobody noticing him getting away? Think about that for a moment, let's assume that people KNEW he was drowning and couldn't get to him quick enough to save him, they SAW him drowning but didn't see him get away?

Now let's assume nobody saw him drowning, why did everyone assume he drowned to begin with? Imagine that conversation "Mrs Vorhees your son drowned." "Did you see him drown?" "No, we're just assuming he did." Sounds stupid doesn't it? Someone MUST have seen him drowning. But let's take it a step further, let's say nobody saw him drowning, but they all just magically knew that he did drown. Why in the flying sam's *beep* would Jason go live in the woods instead of returning to camp? If he's just to stupid to know any better, then he's also to stupid to live off of the land. If he's intelligent, then he would have went back to camp or made his way home, he wouldn't have lived for 10+ years in the woods while his mother was still alive.

I think you're over thinking it. They needed a killer to continue the franchise so they brought Jason back and told us he must've survived the drowning. Theres not much more to it than that. In part 2 they said he drowned but they never found his body, of course in the original they most likely did find his body. In the sequel they have to say it wasn't found so they can bring Jason into the series. Is it a plot hole? Yeah but the series is full of plot holes.

And? We've already established he's not like other Zombies, he's not stupid or mindless at any point in time through out the entire series. Not sure what pain has to do with anything at all. He has a functioning brain, brains feel pain. After 6 his body had been decomposing long enough to no longer feel it. Seems like a simple enough explanation.

So you're saying he's some unique zombie that ages and feels pain? lol that makes even less sense than anything in the movies.

Jason grew up in the woods surviving off wild animals and stealing clothes and whatever he needed to make it. Its not until he sees his mother killed that he goes on his murder spree to avenge her death.

As for him not coming to his mother after he survived i think he thought it would be better if everyone thought he was dead cause they treated him like a freak. Is it a stretch that a mentally retarded boy could survive on his own in the woods? Yeah but you just gotta let it slide.

Thats what i love about these high school girls, i get older they stay the same age.

[–] TonyC4444 9 years ago

I think you're over thinking it.

This can be said of any piece of art. Is the Mona Lisa smiling or not? Are we over thinking it? Art, any Art, is there for most people to just enjoy. A few of us (sounds like you too) like to dissect it and discuss it. If my sole purpose in life were to simply watch and enjoy the Art at face value then your right, I'm over thinking it.

But after watching these movies so many times I no longer get enjoyment simply out of watching them, and so dissecting them and getting to it's roots is what I enjoy. In which case, I'm not.

They needed a killer to continue the franchise so they brought Jason back and told us he must've survived the drowning. Theres not much more to it than that. In part 2 they said he drowned but they never found his body, of course in the original they most likely did find his body. In the sequel they have to say it wasn't found so they can bring Jason into the series. Is it a plot hole? Yeah but the series is full of plot holes.

But the fact that they never mentioned whether or not his body was found in the original is what matters. We're left to assume that someone saw him drowning, probably a kid, and when the counselors went looking for him they were unable to find him. It's an assumption yes, because the movie never actually says, but it's a logical assumption that has some basis in reality. A plot hole is only a plot hole when there's no reasonable explanation to fill said plot hole, it's perfectly reasonable that all the counselors were off doing drugs and having sex, some kid sees Jason drowning and runs to get the counselors, by the time the counselors make it out there Jason has already drowned (and died) and then no one is able to find his body after that. Those are all reasonable logical deductions we can get from what exists directly in the movie.

So you're saying he's some unique zombie that ages and feels pain? lol that makes even less sense than anything in the movies.

Whether you're looking at Jason before Part 5 or after Part 5, he's always a unique sort of Zombie. You agree that after part 5 he's definitely undead, right? And yet he never behaves like any other sort of undead creature we see in any other movie. All I did was take what everyone knows and accepts as truth after part 5 and apply it to Jason before part 5. Calling him a Zombie I suppose is slightly disingenuous because everyone thinks of a Zombie as a mindless creature walking around looking for brains. It USED to simply mean a re-animated corpse. Jason is clearly not mindless or looking for brains, but he is a re-animated corpse. The only term I can offer is super zombie, but yeah, he's definitely unique.

Jason grew up in the woods surviving off wild animals and stealing clothes and whatever he needed to make it. Its not until he sees his mother killed that he goes on his murder spree to avenge her death.

I still go back to that this makes very little sense in the context of the film. We're led to believe that he loves his mother so much that he kills anyone choosing the same profession as his mothers killer and anyone else who gets in his way, but he doesn't love her enough to simply go home.

Whether he's undead before Part 5 or not this is a plot hole I think, there's no reasonable explanation for him to not return home. Even as a Zombie.

As for him not coming to his mother after he survived i think he thought it would be better if everyone thought he was dead cause they treated him like a freak. Is it a stretch that a mentally retarded boy could survive on his own in the woods? Yeah but you just gotta let it slide.

I know I said he was mentally retarded in the OP, but I think that was incorrect. I don't think he was mentally retarded after giving it more thought. He was certainly deformed, but it seems to me he was also highly intelligent. Think about it. If he is able to live off the land, he can't be stupid. But we also know that in Part 2, the first person we ever see him kill lives no where near the woods, he had to not only travel to his mother's killer, but actually find her which couldn't have been easy in the late 70's early 80's. We also know that he travels to Ohio not once but twice. Once during Jason goes to hell he travels from Ohio back to New Jersey, and in Freddy vs Jason he travels from New Jersey to Ohio. On top of this we see him working all sorts of mechanical machinery through out the series like buzz saws and spear guns. I really think we can chalk him up to not going back to his mom as being a plot hole. But this doesn't detract from all of the other points I made.

People don't survive hangings and most likely having their neck broken. People don't catch axes and matches to their face and body and then get up walking around like nothing happened. At a minimum if he were a normal human being he would have died from blood loss at the end of part two. He's Supernatural, whether you call him a Zombie or something else, he's not human and he drowned before Part 1.

Whether
By the way, I am right behind you.

[–] kurt7825 8 years ago

movies aren't a piece of art lol.

also Jason wasn't a zombie.

[–] jsicos 8 years ago

Jason seemed human in part 2 only. He may have been partially zombie in that too. No one would have survived that machete to the shoulder. He then successively gets a little more supernatural in 3 and 4.

In part 3 Jason gets stabbed in the hand and leg, knocked in the head with a block of wood, bashed with a shovel, and hung by the neck. And comes back for more. No normal human is doing that.

In 4 he was mostly zombie with a touch of human, imo. He survives the axe to the head, then gets hacked in the wrist, hammerclawed to the neck, tv smashed on head, hand machete'd in half, and machete'd across the chest. And doesn't even slow down! Then he seemingly survived having his head sliced in half. And people say he's human?

[–] GuyNCognito 8 years ago

Movies are most definitely art.

Just like terrible paintings, sculptures, and photographs, there are awful films....

Grant discovered raptor eggs in Jurassic Park

[–] luig29 9 years ago

Yep exactly this guy gets it don't forget when Chris tried to run him down with her van he jumped out of the way almost like he was afraid of getting hit.

[–] dsm442 8 years ago

Made much more sense than the OP's rantings.

[–] Dembilaja 9 years ago

I think this is a thing most people that watched parts six and above or
Freddy vs Jason first come thinking,especially when they see part one after
that and its quite confusing ending.
Jason was indeed dead in part one,but dead,not George Romero's version of dead,
rather dead as in real life dead,and was btw innocent child victimized by others.
And that was Sean Cunningham's and Victor Miller's original idea,
make quick Halloween cash in (those were trend at the time),just change couple
of thing here and there,like setting,don't reveal killer until the end,
add twist to it,add Psycho inspired music and Carry like jump scare dream
sequence at the end and we have our movie.

Now how it goes with successful horror movies they get sequels each year,
in some instances even twice a year,and Friday the 13th's weren't any different,
and how it goes with sequels they often get completely different crew of
people working on it than one from original,so original story gets pissed on
and you get lot of retcons and inconsistencies.Again Friday the 13th was not different.

So from original concept of little boy that was victim and died more than twenty
years before events of the first movie we now have to deal with the thought that
he was actually alive,hiding in the woods,living his own life,and occasionally
sneaking on his mother...Point is,and it is explained fairly well by Paul in movie,
that he was always alive,jumping Alice from the lake was a just a dream,because
cops never saw her being jumped by any zombie child,even Jason's design from part
two suggests he was lone hillbilly.

But as I said,how it goes with horror movies,they get retconed to hell with each
sequel and part three got major one,and that was well,Jason's design,leaving him
little and skinny like he was in part two wouldn't work well,so they made him extra
tough and big in part three to convince audience that machete to the shoulder is
a scratch for him,as a matter of fact I forgot about that by the time his neck
cracked from hanging,and that was just to make possible sequel more possible,
because if he can survive all that,then ax to the forehead is perfectly survivable,
and crew on the next year's cash in for Paramount don't have to scratch their
heads that much,since he haven't got beheaded or dropped into woodchipper
just explain it how he was unconscious and everyone was scared to check his pulse.

And yes,at the beginning of the part four we have cut scene from part two,
with Paul by camp fire explaining Jason's origins,so that didn't get retconed,
meaning he was a lone savage from the woods all the time.

One more thing that proves how he was a human all the time are events of
the part five,we never saw real Jason chasing people with half of his
cranium flapping all around.

Friday the 13th was never preplanned series,rather mess of ton of different
people pissing in the soup each year,some of them without even seeing previous
installments of the franchise,working under lot of pressure to make stuff in
time,so its continuity gets have so much holes as it have,trying to explain
Friday the 13th continuity is a fool's errand and good luck with it.

But it is pretty clear from just watching parts two,three,four,how no matter of
thing I stated above,he was supposed to be a human.

[–] TonyC4444 9 years ago

Well of course your correct in a lot of ways, I know this was some *beep* hobbled together to make money, I'm not denying that.

What I AM saying though, if you look at nothing but what is with in the context of the story itself, what exists on screen only, there's no other logical conclusion you can come to other than the fact that Jason is some sort of Supernatural Monster through out the entire series including 2 through 4. I couldn't tell you which of these movies I saw first, I was so young and have seen them all so many times I really don't know. And I'm not sure that it matters. Again, looking at the context of the story, without bringing all this other stuff into it that's not even on screen. No human being is going to survive that machete hit from part 2. He would have bled out no matter how big and tough he is, without medical attention he's done. He won't survive the hanging, or the axe to the face. And the fact that he was always supernatural makes part 6 more believable.

But yes, let's take just parts 2 through 4, please explain to me how any normal human being will survive all of those wounds he got. Axe to the face, hanging, Machette completly through his shoulder. There's no way around that, he would have been dead if he was "supposed to be human." And I'm not talking about continuity, continuity in this flicks is all sorts of *beep* lol, but the story is still plausible with in the universe he created IF he died prior to part one and was something supernatural through out. ONLY then does the story make sense, whether the makers wanted or cared about that or not.

By the way, I am right behind you.

[–] Dembilaja 9 years ago

I was trying to explain that to myself too for years when I was young lad,
and when I enjoyed those movies really much (I still love them actually).
But thinking too much into explaining it in some logical type of way
only can bring me another headache.

But again since no one in actual movies bothered to explain him,
then it seems that rule in those movies is that if someone can survive
twenty years in the woods alone then he is capable of surviving machete
in shoulder,multiple stabbings,hanging,and hatchet to the forehead.
So since no one in movies said how he is supernatural,then he isn't,
it all goes to Paul's explanation.
Jason survives all this beating I've mentioned,Michael survives bullet to
the head,getting kicked out of the window,and burned alive,Leatherface
gets chainsaw to the belly exiting through his back and getting blown up
by a hand grenade and they still survive in next sequel without any other
movie character even bringing that up,and wondering how,then it means no
one in movie universe think how they are some extraordinary beings.

Also,while those three can survive basically anything,their victims can
die from them slapping their face...No one brings up how most of people
in these movies insta die from anything.Sure eye gouging is probably
real painful,same as most of stabbing that occur in these movies,but most
of them are not deadly,you can argue,but most of victims from Friday the 13th
movies would survive most of wounds,and recover to certain degree.

So only explanation I can get for these movies is that they happen in
different universe,which is btw visually same as ours,but it doesn't
work quite like it,there are patterns of ten types of people at most,
and where people get killed really easily,while people that do killings,
are little bit tougher (Pamela,Roy),unless they spent most of their childhood
and early adult life living alone in the woods,then they are almost invincible.

[–] TonyC4444 9 years ago

Well sure what you offered there in your last paragraph is a possibility. It's no different than my possibility though. After all corpses don't re-animate and start walking around again here in our universe either.

I take your point on Roy and Pamela though, hadn't even thought of that myself. Hmmmmm....maybe in these Universes when you kill someone you become stronger somehow lol.

By the way, I am right behind you.

[–] snoho 9 years ago

Thank you!

There were always supernatural elements, even in the earlier films [yes].

[–] DrDanielChallis 9 years ago

hey Tony, ease off the gas - you aren't the authority on the facts of the F13 franchise, and, even the people involved across the films can't sit there and explain all the errors and mixed messaging about Jason's alive/dead/undead status

it is up to the fans, the audience, the viewers, to decide how they like to enjoy their experience

all that said, as far as after the original is concerned (by the way, the original director and writer, including Savini and the actress, have all stated that Jason coming out of the lake was a dream sequence)

Part 2 film: Jason was alive, and saw his mother beheaded
Part 2 novelization: Jason covers his face because it is rotting and filled with maggots

see my point? there is no real clear cut answer given

and,

Part 3 - Jason has super-human strength and can take a hanging, and then

FC: Come back from an axe to the head, almost grayish-tinted skin and somewhat dead, but possibly still living looking with blackish fingernails? and then

He's buried and arises from the grave in Part 6 . . . but wait, wasn't he already undead to begin with?

again - see my point? You have to grounds to cement anything as clear cut fact other than what is shown to us throughout those films - and there is no clear point about his status - period. Move on already.

[–] TonyC4444 9 years ago

hey Tony, ease off the gas - you aren't the authority on the facts of the F13 franchise

This was a really douche thing to say. Like, seriously who says ease off the gas.

I offered my opinion and cited examples to support my position. That's what you're supposed to do when you have an opinion. Now maybe your opinion differs and that's fine, but don't come in here acting like a douche. The people who were creating this were just kind of going with the flow, my entire point was if you look at things that happened with in the film Jason is clearly a Zombie. And since we're talking about the films, and since you were being a douche, why would you cite from the novels? Nobody cares, we're talking about the movies.

By the way, I am right behind you.

[–] DrDanielChallis 9 years ago

Like, not as "douche-y" as calling someone a "douche"

Like, seriously

thanks for the chuckle