MovieChat Forums > WarGames (1983) Discussion > The gun scene in the nuclear bunker

The gun scene in the nuclear bunker


Why would the guy pull a gun on his colleague who was refusing to turn the key to launch the missiles?
Did he just turn crazy? and would guns not be allowed in such a sensetive area?

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I think it was meant to force someone to do their job. Instead of sitting there having sympathy for the enemy, and betraying those he was supposed to protect.

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Yeah, I always thought it was part of their training: if you get the order to fir the missile and the other guy won't turn the key, force him to do it.

But then again, doesn't that defeat the purpose of having two people there? Having two people and two keys provides a bit of a failesafe against some crazy guy who wants to fire it himself, but if the crazy guy has a pistol, he can threaten the other guy into turning the key.

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I'm just expressing my opinion.

You may all go to hell, and I will go to Texas.

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True, but I don't think they'd actually be able to fire without the launch order and codes.

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Good point.

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I'm just expressing my opinion.

You may all go to hell, and I will go to Texas.

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Part of their training?
So the guy who is hesitating to turn the key will also have a gun right?
He then pulls out his own gun to defend himself and a shootout or stand off takes place in a nuclear missile launch room while in-bound russian missiles are about to rain down on the United States?
No way,i cant believe this potential scenario would be allowed to happen

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Yeah, in the movie anyway. I have no idea what it was like in reality.
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I'm just expressing my opinion.

You may all go to hell, and I will go to Texas.

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In reality, they would stand up and crouch, circling each other as the Star Trek battle music pipes in and they would go hand-to-hand combat to the death.

At least that's how it should have been.



My New Year's resolution is to simply write 2̶0̶1̶4̶ 2015 instead of 2014"
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I just hope that they guy who refused to turn the key was never in any position to defend the country again. Discharge would be best. If not, he can be a janitor or something like that.

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I think the number was closer to about 30% of the men in the silos wouldn't turn the key. Then again, when you're talking about M.A.D. and futility, does it really matter whether they turned the key or not? Mutually Assured Destruction is not a good defense strategy unless, as Joshua stated, you never play the game.





My New Year's resolution is to simply write 2̶0̶1̶4̶ 2015 instead of 2014"
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"Mutually Assured Destruction is not a good defense strategy"

except here we are in 2022 with no nuclear wars, no Cold War annd no USSR. I'd say it worked pretty well.

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Yes it does.

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If not, he can be a janitor or something like that.
if not, the chief of staff to the President of the United States.

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He was a hero. Imagine if everybody disobeyed orders to launch a nuke. Suppose they gave a war and nobody came?

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Yeah! Just imagine the enemy's nukes taking out the entire country, while the people who swore to defend the country are crying for the people doing it!

He was a ZERO and should have been dishonorably discharged for refusing to do what he vowed to do.

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You're a *beep* moron, MeanKitty.

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You need to resort to name calling because you have no intelligent argument. Who's the real moron?

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I suspect that being specifically ordered to turn a key that will vaporize 20 million people is rather different from going about your day knowing that you MIGHT be ordered to do that someday. Even McKittrick, in his technological arrogance, recognized that; the 20% of the missile controllers who failed to launch their missiles in the exercise had only one problem, namely that "they're human beings."

For a real-life example for which you can thank your lucky stars and those of everybody you know and love, look up a man named Stanislav Petrov. In 1983, at the height of the Cold War and with nuclear tensions running high, he was a Soviet duty officer when the satellite he was responsible for monitoring alerted his station to several incoming American ICBMs. Petrov was supposed to pass the missile alert on up to his superiors; fortunately for all of us, he correctly deduced that it was a computer error, and reported as much to his superiors.


Revenge is a dish best served cold.
-- Klingon proverb

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That is quite different than having a launch order, knowing you might have already been hit, and choosing to betray your own people for the sake of those killing your people.

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In the movie, the two guys in that command bunker were responsible for launching ten ICBMs. Each missile would have carried 8-10 MIRVs, each with a yield of at least 100 kilotons (i.e. 7-8 times the Hiroshima bomb). Not knowing any of the context surrounding what they've been ordered to do, they would at least know that, if Soviet missiles hadn't already launched, they would as soon as the US launches were detected.

When those are the stakes that are being played with, and when the death and destruction from your actions is inevitably going to be on a globally cataclysmic scale, well.... frankly, at that point notions like patriotism, or betrayal, or "their people vs. our people", are basically meaningless. It's not as though, by failing to launch, he was dooming his own people -- once the launch orders are received, ICBMs are no longer for defense (their defensive value is based purely on deterrence), they're simply tools for annihilating the other side's people. If Soviet missiles were already inbound, the US civilians that guy was "protecting" were doomed already. And if they weren't already on their way, he might actually be able to save his own people by not launching, since holding back might avoid provoking a Soviet response.

And it would hardly matter to the irradiated survivors living in the rubble, or to the dead, whether 20 million more or fewer people on the other side of the globe had died or been spared due to one guy's actions or lack thereof.

Revenge is a dish best served cold.
-- Klingon proverb

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Actually, if I was stumbling through the rubble, my family dead, etc., it would matter to me that someone had warm, fuzzy feelings for the people who did this, and didn't care what they were doing to us. And I know others who feel the same.

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The fact that others you know feel the same doesn't mean they're right.

A couple of things.

1. It wouldn't be "warm fuzzy feelings for the people who did this" -- the people who would have killed your family and mine in that era would have been a small group of men in the Politburo. Not the millions of Soviet citizens the US warheads would annihilate, who, much like you, your family and mine, basically just wanted to live out their lives and see their children grow up.

2. It probably wouldn't be warm fuzzy feelings at all; more likely a simple, human inability to turn a key and annihilate a few million people, regardless of whose side they're on.

3. At the height of the Cold War, most significant targets on either side would have been on the receiving end of multiple warheads. Any sizable city, for instance, would at a minimum have received one on its centre of government, another on its airport (to prevent military use), and another on its heavy industrial sector. There were roughly 40 ICBM launch sites in the continental US during the Cold War; thus the failure of one such site to launch, or 22% of all sites in the movie's hypothetical, wouldn't have made much difference to the outcome, sadly. And that's to say nothing of SLBMs or nuclear-armed cruise missiles launched from ships or from bombers.

Fundamentally, when both sides have massive nuclear arsenals, their only strategic defensive value is deterrence. If deterrence fails, they're tools for mass murder. Nothing more.


Revenge is a dish best served cold.
-- Klingon proverb

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Lets see how you feel if you ever kill someone. From what I heard it is a psyche destroying experience, even for people whose job it is to do it, that's why the person who actually pushes the button or flips a switch during an execution can't see the body or face of the person they are killing and they are still affected by it. These men in the bunker would be responsible for the deaths of millions of people potentially. That's a pretty heavy load to dump on someone.

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Then they shouldn't take the job if they are not up to it. I know I would not like to know (if I had a way of knowing) that we were being attacked, and the people attacking would get away with it because the people in the bunker were more concerned with the attacking enemy than the people they swore to defend.

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Wow. Look, you never know if you are actually "up to it" until you are actually in the situation where you are supposed to do it. I have a friend who wanted to be a paratrooper. Went through all the training and did well but when they went up to make their first jump he couldn't do it. He thought he could do it but when it was time to do it, he just couldn't.

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Each missile would have carried 8-10 MIRVs . . .


The Peacekeeper (or MX) missile was the only ICBM capable of carrying 10 MIRVs, but it first entered service in 1986 (3 years after the movie WarGames was released). The missileers at in the beginning of the film were depicting a Minuteman II or Minuteman III Missile Alert Facility (MAF) and corresponding underground Launch Control Center (LCC) which was primarily responsible for its own flight of ten missiles, while also providing launch order confirmation and backup launch control redundancy for the 4 additional flights of missiles within their squadron.

Retired during the early 1990s, the Minuteman II carried a single warhead. Entering service in 1986, the Peacekeeper was the most advanced American ICBM ever produced. Capable of carrying up to 10 MIRVs per missile, it was initially intended to replace the Minuteman III program. The end of the cold war and multiple START treaties resulted in the Peacekeeper's production run being limited. By the end of 2005, all 50 Peacekeepers had been retired. The 450 remaining Minuteman III missiles are capable of carrying up to three MIRVs per missile, and are expected to remain in service until approximately 2030.

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[deleted]

I think you missed the point of the movie

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I fully understand the point of the movie - that nobody can really win in a full scale nuclear war. However, if only one side launches and kills everyone on the other side, and that other side does nothing, guess what? The side that launched has won.

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On the other hand, if the few survivors of the other side put an end to mankind, those who are already dead feel much better. Pretty reasonable. It's been so good being governed by people with your mindset for so long. Pity that it's over. I'm surprised we're still around.

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And you really think that not firing back accomplishes - what?

But you are right about one thing - it does seem to be coming to an end. The US will soon be a third world country, thanks to people with your minds like yours.

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Not that i like the idea, but I'd rather the Commies win a half-irradiated planet when we don't launch than if both sides launch and whoever can survive inherits a fully-irradiated wasteland of a planet.





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This man lives free or he doesn't live at all. I would MUCH go out with a nuclear bang and even survive in an irradiated land where both sides received equal damage (E.g. Threads and The Day After), than having Soviet Russia, Communist China, or some other totalitarian society actually winning with some damage. After all, we know how much the Soviets cared for their people, right?

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No, you're still missing the point. The point is not, "Nobody wins in a full scale nuclear war." The point is, "The only way to win is not to play the game." Does that answer your question about one side not retaliating back?

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No. Because how do you "win" if the other side has launched, and you decide not to play? You die, all your people die. The other side celebrates the victory.

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The victory of a half-irradiated planet. If they launch and we DO retaliate, our country is destroyed. If they launch AND we launch in retaliation our country is still destroyed. What exactly do we win if we retaliate?

I don’t need you to tell me how good my coffee is.. 
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So, you would say "let them attack and kill all of us, and we'll just do nothing"?

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I say we should be destroying their launched nukes as best as we can before they hit grround zero. Otherwise, I see no point in simply lobbing a reciprocating volley of death onto them. What will THAT accomplish?


I don’t need you to tell me how good my coffee is.. 
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Ok, that part I don't know a lot about. Is it even possible to hit their nukes in the air?

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We do have anti-missile technologies in place. No telling how effective it would be against a full-scale launch though, and what technologies are in place to counteract our own countermeasures.



I don’t need you to tell me how good my coffee is.. 
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You're really not getting this. Think about it. Hint: thinking about one side launching and the other side not, so one side "wins" while the other side "loses", continues to miss the point.

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No, you are not getting it. What is the point of letting the enemy kill everyone (or most people) in your country, and doing nothing about it?

Now, most of the people in your country are dead. Pretend you and your family somehow survived, and are now scrounging through the wasteland just trying to survive. Your home is destroyed. Your child was blinded by the flash. You (and others) are just wandering the wasteland, and there is no food.

People with warm, fuzzy feelings for the people who did this did nothing about it. The people who did this are living int their fully intact homes, eating, going on as though nothing happened. Because for them, nothing happened. How did the side who "decided not to play" win?

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"The only winning move is not to play." That goes for all sides. If it goes as far as your scenario, we're playing and we've already lost.

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But what if the other side already decided to play? Just sit and take the hits, and do nothing.

From the way it looked in the movie, if the computer knew their were inbound missiles, it would have done nothing.

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If either side decides to play, we've all already lost. Nuclear war means mutually assured destruction. The question of whether or not to retaliate is moot and beside the point. You have focused on this one little bit of minutiae, and it's making you miss the forest for the trees.

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No, we just disagree. You say let those who want to destroy us do so, and do nothing in return. So they can live and prosper after destroying us. I feel different. So we might as well just leave it there.

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No, we don't disagree - I never said that. You're reading something into what I've said that isn't there. I'm trying to explain the point of the movie, and you seem to be intentionally trying not to get it. I think there's a word for that...

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I have said before that I do get it. The only way to truly win is if BOTH sides do not play. Or is the movie saying that if the other side does "play first" the side being attacked would "win" by doing nothing?

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Ok, yes, that's right - the only way to truly win is if both sides do not play. I think the premise is that if one side launches, the other side will also launch, always. Look at all the scenarios the computer runs through at the end of the movie. In not one of them does the other side not launch. I believe in the real world this is also assumed; a full-scale nuclear launch would be met with retaliation and the destruction of all nations involved is therefore mutually assured. So the only way to win is not to play. If someone, anyone, decides to play, then we've all lost.

I know you were trying to make a separate point about how it'd be foolish not to launch if someone else launches first, and on paper, I'd agree with you. But in reality, the point is moot. If you've been launched against, what's the point? You're already *beep* I think that's the big point of the movie.

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But in reality, the point is moot. If you've been launched against, what's the point? You're already *beep*


yeah, that's pretty much how I see it.




I don’t need you to tell me how good my coffee is.. 
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Is it unjust? Of course. But at least by not reciprocating with a fiery ball of death, we would also be doing out part to at least help humanity survive with half the planet still habitable.

I don’t need you to tell me how good my coffee is.. 
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So, help the people killing us to survive? No thanks.

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It's not about helping the destroyers but to help the everyday people survive and persevere and hopefully continue to evolve and perhaps even overthrow the evil regime that would choose to destroy half the planet.

Otherwise we reduce everyone on the planet to eating radioactive grubs and fighting off mutants placing the entire species in jeopardy.

I have a problem with killing the bulk of the human species simply because governments are run by aggressors and idiots.


I don’t need you to tell me how good my coffee is.. 
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And party and celebrate my death, the deaths of my loved ones, and millions of others? And don't think they would not be doing it. On 9/11, I witnessed it myself when the people in the company next door to the one I worked for at the time of the attacks were celebrating.

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9/11 and its handful of partiers is a far cry from a nation unloading their entire nuclear payload on us.

Frankly, I think it would be ultimately unnecessary for us to retaliate. Take out the United States (and pretty much this side of the planet) and what do you think will happen to the other side of the world? I doubt it would survive.



I don’t need you to tell me how good my coffee is.. 
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[deleted]

It was a drill, so the missiles were set to not go off anyway. Since "only" 20% failed to launch, it meant in other bunkers, people did what they were supposed to do. And no war started.

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[deleted]

But they both have pistols. And they're both locked in that bunker and presumably monitored on CCTV. If one or both of them tried to launch a nuclear missile without authorization, they'd quickly be breathing knockout gas if they were anywhere near actually firing An ICBM. That was the scenario the system seemed designed for: preventing unauthorized launch. But the funny thing is that the men not actually launching when told to, even if the order was legit, is the more likely scenario. Which is why in reality there would be some sort of two-way confirmation system so that the human operator who actually fires the nuke knows for certain that the order is legit and not just a computer screen that merely says "launch the nukes now because I say so." And there would be multiple redundancies. Oh, yeah: and the system would be air-gapped so some nerdy kid couldn't inadvertently kick off a nuclear war. However, humans turning out to be the weakest link in even the most well-designed system is just a fact of life:

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/11/nearly-two-decades-nuclear-launch-code-minuteman-silos-united-states-00000000/

http://foreignpolicy.com/2014/01/21/air-force-swears-our-nuke-launch-code-was-never-00000000/


"Ass to ass. Ha ha ha ha. ASS TO ASS!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa5z77EI8y0

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Anyway, it'd be pointless to force somebody to turn the key. Once you kill him, how could you turn his keys? Both of them were supposed to be turned simultaneously...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fJ3lhGeptw

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The reality is that if one of the missile officers refused to turn their key, the other officer was supposed to shoot him for treason. And if that happened, the USAF General on board the Looking Glass aircraft or even the president still had the ability to launch the missiles from that facility. It was a much different time without the "touchy-feely love everyone and we must understand our poor enemy" society we have. The fate of the nation was at stake and it took a special breed of men to become launch control facility officers.


"We're paratrooper lieutenant. We're supposed to be surrounded"
Captain Dick Winters, Bastogne, 1944

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It was a much different time


Yeah, hence the constant fear of nuclear obliteration due directly to psychotic idiots like you who'd rather drown the world in radiation than consider any option other than warfare.

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Well, this "psychotic idiot" would rather live free than a slave to communist russia. But with hanky stomping liberals like yourself, you'll bend over and be a slave to whoever. You're welcome for your freedom of speech that you enjoy, courtesy of Pshychotic idiots who serve in the military.

"We're paratroopers lieutenant. We're supposed to be surrounded"

Captain Winters, Bastogne, 1944

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Don't bother. Some people really think that if the enemy fired nukes at us, we should do thing in return other than apologize over and over to them and somehow that would make it all better.

They are the same ones who think that these days, we should just keep giving the muslims all they demand (they want "Sharia law" zones here in the US, why not? Right?)

They get warm fuzzy feelings thinking about murderers, rapists, etc. and worry themselves sick over how those poor things are being treated in the prisons "we" put them in - through no fault of their own.

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[deleted]

...and the sooner you can find one here, the sooner the rest of us bleeding heart, treasonous liberals can be assured that these people actually exist.


Then maybe you should read the posts defending the man who refused to turn the key when told to.

Wow, I had no idea that the Soviet Union was a militant muslim theocracy. That puts the whole silo scene, - indeed the whole movie - into a different light.


Did I say that? No. I said the people who think nothing should be done if we are attacked are the same people who think we should be "tolerant" of anyone who hates us.

More complaining about your imaginary enemies' "fuzzy feelings".

Why do you even bother responding to posts written by real people?


"Oh, I just can't harm the people killing us! Oh, I feel so bad for them!"

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[deleted]


More arguments with your imaginary friend, apparently the only person you can deal with.


Actually, referring to the man in the movie who refused to turn the key. Can you understand that?

You made the comparison - it's in your comment. You made the comparison. If you thought that one had nothing to do with the other, you shouldn't have said it.


You just like twisting words. Or just cannot understand what I am saying.

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[deleted]

In 'Command and Control,' by Eric Schlosser - Eric relates to the reader that the ground support crew who designed, built and maintained the command pod where the keys were located (For Titan, anyway), knew that the key setup was easily defeated by running a single-contact wire from switch to switch under the desk.
So, the missile could be launched by mortally wounding the co-worker, 'hot-wiring' the key system and continuing with the procedure. Certainly a suicide scenario.

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Missile launch requires that both men turn their keys at the exact same time. If the deputy shoots the commander because he won't turn his key the missile will definitely not be fired. So shooting him or threatening to do so won't do any good. That is why the US Airforce has redundancy systems. Therefore, if this missile base did not fire, for whatever reason, another would as backup.

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Missile launch requires that both men turn their keys at the exact same time. If the deputy shoots the commander because he won't turn his key the missile will definitely not be fired. So shooting him or threatening to do so won't do any good. That is why the US Airforce has redundancy systems. Therefore, if this missile base did not fire, for whatever reason, another would as backup.


This is how I understand it as well.

According to a segment of 60 Minutes (I think) that I saw many years ago, the purpose of the guns was to enable one missile-launch officer to shoot his partner if the partner went crazy. The purpose of the guns was to prevent an unauthorized launch of the missile.

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The amount of fallout from just us being hit (we don't fire back) would eventually irradiate and kill life on the entire planet. Also Nuclear winter would spread across the entire planet. If India and Pakistan decide to go there it doesn't take many hits where the rest of the world is *beep*

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How long would that take? Let's say "the enemy" fires and the US just sits back and waits to die. Would it be a matter of days? or more like, the ones who fired go on with their lives like nothing happened, and it takes a few generations for the attacking country to have any "payback"?

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There are a lot of people in the world who would be just fine with getting to be victorious living gods for a year or two before succumbing to radiation. Heck, right now a big chunk of the Middle East is being conquered by a group of Muslim fanatics who've announced their intention to kill everyone and bulldoze everything just because they can. The world is not a college poli-sci class, folks poo-poohing the MAD strategy would be wise to remember that.

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So you would just say, "Kill us all, I don't mind. Then go have happy lives"?

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[deleted]

Ypu said once the enemy launches, our nukes aren't defending anything. To me, that sounded like you think we should just take it, and not fire back.

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[deleted]

I really don't care how you look at it. "Offense" or "defense" or whatever. If the enemy is firing at us, I don't have warm, fuzzy feelings for them, and anyone who does does not belong in the military.

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[deleted]

Let me explain. When I said "I don't care how you look at it, "offense" or "defense" I meant it makes no difference.

The bottom line is that if the enemy decides to kill us, I feel they should suffer the consequences. You think they shouldn't.

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[deleted]

Your spend so much fantasizing what people think that you never have time to listen to what they say.


It's very easy to see from your posts what you think. You think if the enemy fired at us, we should do nothing.

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[deleted]

Ok, how about you stop skating around it. The missiles are on the way. The enemy is going to kill you, everyone you love and care about, and millions of others.

The decision to launch or not is up to me. I would launch. Yes, I understand it will not stop my people from dying. But I would not want the killers to get away with it.

What would you do?

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[deleted]

That's not to say that those who didn't fire missiles are committing treason or sympathizers of soviets or criminals.


Why else would they refuse to launch? Because they think not launching would mean we wouldn't be hit?

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[deleted]

To be absolutely honest, if I were one of those missile commanders, and I knew Soviet missiles were en route, I'd probably be angry/scared/whatever enough to launch, too. Even if the primary motivation for launching was simple revenge at that point, I can see myself doing it. Would I actually do it? Dunno. The point is that I CAN see myself doing it.

But the problem with your question is that it misses a central plot point from that scene.

In the scene, the two missile controllers are shooting the breeze and chatting about marijuana strains or something, just going about their regular duties, when they suddenly hear the squawk box giving them launch codes. Their training kicks in, they start following their orders, and then the commander suddenly starts trying to get somebody at SAC on the phone.... because he has no idea what's going on. He doesn't know the context. He doesn't know if Soviet missiles are inbound or not; he doesn't know if there was an escalating situation over some global flashpoint that has brought things to the step of him being ordered to launch his 180 or so warheads. Is he launching as part of a large-scale first strike? Or is he launching in retaliation? As he says, "I want somebody on the godd**n phone before I kill 20 million people."

That is exactly why he disobeyed his orders, became part of the 20% who failed to launch because he's a human being, and wasn't court-martialed for it.

Revenge is a dish best served cold.
-- Klingon proverb

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Yes, but the other guy said he couldn't reach anyone, that they might have already been knocked out. Which would missiles already hit, and most likely more were inbound.

Now, in a real world type situation, was there ever any real concern that Russia might just launch a surprise attack, without any escalating situation already happening?

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[deleted]

Very true. Note that when the controllers are on their way down in the elevator, it clearly seems to them (and the duty officer upstairs) that this is starting out just like any other shift. If they were in an atmosphere of hugely escalating tensions, the controllers would probably have known at least something about it, since they'd just come from the world above and would presumably have had access to newspapers, TV or radio. They'd be nervous, or at least chatting about the world situation developing around them.

Logically, even to a "lowly" missileman in a silo, a sudden unprovoked Soviet attack would make no sense, which probably contributed to the senior controller's hesitation. They'd barely been at their stations for five minutes when the squawk box went off.

Revenge is a dish best served cold.
-- Klingon proverb

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It's pretty easy to understand why he pulled the gun on him and it's only a movie lol

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That scene was bogus and was for dramatic effect only. In reality, precautions are intended to PREVENT an invalid missile launch, NOT to ensure a launch, which can still be triggered by the President. There are also backup officers who can take over if something happens to someone at the control panel (heart attack, etc.). Here's the lowdown on the "two-person rule":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-man_rule#Nuclear_weapons

The universe is not only stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine.–J.B. Haldane

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The USAF missile launch capsule crews did (and presumably still do) carry sidearms. As commented, there is a bit of Air Force lore as to what they are actually for when the guys are sitting 100 feet underground behind a 5 ton blast door. Air Force statement is that the guns are for the security of the facility. The reality is either what Wargames showed - to threaten an officer refusing to obey a launch order - or more likely, frankly as a suicide option once the missiles were launched and the officers are sitting there waiting for the soviet missiles to hit.

The Air Force always assumed that a portion of the launch crews would not obey the launch order. Two processes were put in place to get round this. One was the launch 'vote' in which a larger missile squadron was put under the command of 5 crews. The missiles would be fired if 3 of the 5 entered the correct codes which allowed for 2 fails (either refusals or destruction of the facility). The other option is that in an emergency, the launch crews can be over-ridden by the Strategic Command airborne alert plane (formerly the 'Looking Glass' plane). The missiles can be launched centrally from the plane which omits the ground crews and in effect is the process put in place in the movie.

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