MovieChat Forums > De vierde man (1983) Discussion > Can someone explain why this film is so ...

Can someone explain why this film is so highly regarded?


I thought this film was an amateurish bore.

There are many films that ask more questions than they answer themselves or wish their viewer be concerned with (e.g. the films of Hitchcock, which this film pays homage to), but this one fails by lacking an interesting journey. And as for its conclusion, not only did it not answer its own questions, it didn't even leave me wanting to answer them.

(i.e. The film doesn't seem concerned whether Christine is or isn't a murderer as there's no hard evidence presented and so I, as a viewer, don't care to scour the film for clues that give me a definitive answer as I doubt doing so will be life-changing or even fun).

I therefore felt I had sat through tedium to arrive at nothing; nothing thought-provoking nor even entertaining.

I get that it's deliberately kitsch, what with the Hitchcock-esque plot and themes and the allusion to 'The Third Man'. However, is it deliberately ridiculous? For example, the symbolism was not only quite trashy and B-movie/exploitation-like in execution (e.g. the eyeball door, the sexy Jesus and the three animal carcasses), it was extremely obvious and repetitive. More than that, every time it occurred it pulled me out of the more serious plot into a, at best, more artful or, at worst, more ridiculous film. It felt like Verhoeven only had one cinematic method/trick to communicate this information and used it again and again and again. In other words, it was clumsy, or even bad, film-making.

It's a genuine mystery to me why it has international acclaim. It's like a low budget, exploitation take off of the kind of films Brian De Palma made for a short while (e.g. 'Body Double'), which I certainly think are crap and I know I'm not alone in thinking so. Nudity, homosexuality and gore pop up every 5 minutes or so in the most juvenile way and there are shots that seem like attempts at Scorsese-esque kinetic cameras, except they are poorly executed and often unnecessary (a shot in which a camera moves from a clock face to Christine after she has interviewed Gerard, for example).

I seriously suspect the acclaim has more to do with it being a foreign film (the acclaim seems to come more from the US and UK than Holland or elsewhere) and full of Christian allusions critics are too afraid to question (these allusions are too frequent, too heavy and often too incoherent) than being a well-made film. There are so many lowbrow films that critics would, at the very least, not praise so highly if it weren't for the subtitles (e.g. 'Amelie', 'Le Grand Bleu' and 'Haute Tension'), seemingly for fear of losing intellectual points.

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You are a huge idiot. You seem to have missed the point of the film, and probably every over film that deals with subjective reality. There are hundreds of modern films that make the same point, it's incredible that anyone could not understand it by now. This type of movie is obviously NOT for you. You think you've solved why the film is bad: "[it] doesn't seem concerned whether Christine is or isn't a murderer...." But actually the film itself already told you that in the main character's speech at the start. Knowing if a fictional character is a murderer is not important, will never be life-changing, and has nothing to do with this film, and is definitely not required for this film to be entertaining or thrilling. This film contains ideas about interpretations of reality and that's the reason for all the religious symbolism that you didn't like. The main character was religious. He also had hallucinations. I could go on but I must say this film just isn't for you. All of Verhoeven's work will fly right over your head, you should stick to Hitchcock and classic films which are more primitive and can fit into your tiny little model of what a movie should be like.



~ Observe, and act with clarity. ~

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You are a huge idiot. You seem to have missed the point of my post, and probably every other post that deals with films you like.

I clearly stated that I consider the film to be bad because, to quote myself, it "fails by lacking an interesting journey", "the symbolism was not only quite trashy and B-movie/exploitation-like in execution (e.g. the eyeball door, the sexy Jesus and the three animal carcasses), it was extremely obvious and repetitive" and "It felt like Verhoeven only had one cinematic method/trick to communicate this information and used it again and again and again. In other words, it was clumsy, or even bad, film-making."

The quote you pulled referred only to my problem with the film's conclusion, which, if you had read my post properly, was only a small part of my dislike for this film.

You should stick to watching "Hackers", "American Beauty", "Starship Troopers", "Mortal Kombat"... (I could go on and on listing the terrible films you enjoy).

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Fail. I don't particularly like American Beauty or Mortal Kombat.



~ Observe, and act with clarity. ~

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Fail.

"don't particularly like" is not the same as "dislike" or "consider to be awful" and those are awful films.

Just to clarify, the reason why I'm being so harsh towards you is to simply reflect your bizarrely obnoxious and irrelevant reply to my original post and your latest "I must find fault with what this guy wrote and have the last word" post.

The bottom line is you misinterpreted what I originally wrote and you were offensive and pretentious. Learn from your mistakes (i.e. read posts carefully and offer polite replies) and move on.

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You expect far too much from me. I've only seen those films once and it was years in the past.

Oh, and when I reply to idiots on the internet, it's usually not for your sake, so I don't care if you feel unfulfilled by my reply lol.



~ Observe, and act with clarity. ~

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so in your original post youre saying that the only reason ppl like this film is because its not american? that does not make sense my friend, this movie is a very brilliant nasty little film. like the person after you posted, its all subjective. if you couldnt see that in the first 5 mins of the movie than it clearly went right over your head. and whats all this talk about hackers and mortal kombat? lol

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Everybody is entitled to their opinion, but your criticisms are basically a collection of entirely subjective points; issues based on personal likes and dislikes and preferences.

It's like telling people you don't understand why they like vanilla ice-cream so much.
What kind of response are you looking for, exactly?

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Your first line contradicts itself; am I entitled to express my opinion or does its "entirely subjective" nature devalue it?

Also, many of my points are objective: the film is deliberately kitsch and exploitative but also unintentionally amateurish in its execution; the film is deliberately trashy but is full of relatively highbrow allusions that suggest it's trying to communicate something profound; lowbrow foreign films get almost highbrow acclaim from English-speaking critics and audiences (a more recent example is 'The Artist').

What I was asking for was someone to explain, as I asked in my original post, "is it deliberately ridiculous?" And if so, to what end?

For example, Verhoeven apparently considers 'Basic Instinct' to be a "spiritual sequel". It's a much more coherent use of the genre(s) and themes (as well as technically more accomplished), and so is more successful in its aims to shock, titillate and entertain.

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I think one of the problems many people would have understanding the value and significance of this film is the fact that so many people have done this type of movie since, taking good and bad and redoing it so any times that even Verhoeven himself has all but remade this movie. I saw this movie when it came out, in the theater, and it was amazing not only because there was little like it at the time, but because it walked the fine line between horror, religion, art house, comedy, thriller, supernatural tale, and typical drama. On top of that it contained homosexuality, odd interesting characters, and a plot that would never have been touched in the US at the time. People sometimes have trouble understanding that the country was very different in 1983/1984, and seeing something like this in a theater was all but a revelation in itself. Add to it that most of us that have seen this find it interesting, fun, beautiful, terrifying, ridiculous and engaging means that most people that have seen this do not share your views. Now granted, I could attack you and call you simple minded, as you could easily do the same to me, but I don't think that would really make anything more clear to either of us. Obviously those of us that regard this highly did find this movie an interesting journey, or else we wouldn't rate it so high or defend it so strongly. You didn't, that's your opinion, this film is definitely not for everyone, though most of my friends who like more normal fare even like this one when I get them to sit through it.

As for answering its own questions, you are correct, it doesn't, and that is part of the beauty of this kind of film, you are left wondering is she somehow involved in killing them, or not? There are clues to lead you either way, and to be honest, it doesn't matter to me at all, I don't think this is a question that is meant to be answered, or maybe it has two answers. Personally I find the film very thought provoking, very interesting to watch, and one of the few films I can watch over and over again and see different things and views each time I watch it. Last night I saw it for at least the 5th time in almost 30 years, and it held up as my favorite film of all time, with Blue Velvet a very close second.

As for it being deliberately kitsch, Verhoeven himself said he over did it on purpose to take the piss out of critics of his films, though nowadays he says hes satisfied with it in general and how he handled it. This tells you that even the director of the film has multiple feelings about it, as it is the kind of film you can look at in so many different ways. You can view it from a religious stance, or as a supernatural movie, or as a black comedy, or as a thriller, or from the view of homosexual behavior. These are all things that he has used in his movies to differing degrees, but this one was the first of his to throw it all together in one pot in such equal measure. Until last night, I couldn't even see why anyone could ever call this a black comedy, even though I knew some parts were funny. But seeing it again last night it showed that side of itself to me. The symbolism is a method to drive the points home, even when there is no one to explain to you when you get there.

Regarding Brian DePalma and Body Double, I find it amusing that you mention that film as well, as that is also one of the films that I can watch over and over again. The small details that DePalma, and Verhoeven, put in their films are what make me come back to see them again. The fact that the main character in Body Double, who is ridiculously claustrophobic, drives a convertible with the top down is just one nice touch which is just there, never referenced or hammered home, just there. These are why I like films like this, I don't think I noticed the convertible and made the connection until the second or third viewing. I like films that reward me for multiple viewings. The fact that nudity, gore and homosexuality pop up every 5 minutes is part of its charm. How you regard these sections is up to you, I didn't see them as juvenile, but I'm sure others like you did. Is Verhoeven being juvenile, or is he commenting on how society views these things as juvenile? Does it really matter?

You seem to find his movie making clumsy and ineffective, but for me, I cannot tear my eyes away from the screen while this is on. I watch every camera movement as if the camera was my head moving the exact same way. Upon further viewings I've forced myself to watch the background shots, view the colors of the scene, listen to the sounds, and found there to be so much purpose and cohesiveness to it all that it makes the film extra special.

The fact that this is a foreign film is only relevant for the fact that in the US at the time no one would have been able to make a film like this, as full frontal nudity and homosexuality would not be allowed in this fashion. You are correct it is full of Christian allusions, many incoherent, just like the Bible or any organized religion is for that matter. As for it gaining critic points for being a foreign film, well, I can't speak for critics as I am not a professional one. But as a film goer that sees about 100 movies a year, some Hollywood big budget ones, some foreign, some horror, and some just plain old weird and messed up, I can tell you that personally Haute Tension started off great and turned into a giant pile of crap, and I saw Delicatessen right after seeing The Fourth Man last night and I was less than impressed. I don't care if a film is foreign, American made, or what style it is, I care if it engages me and leaves an impression. Seeing The Fourth Man almost 30 years ago started me on a Verhoeven obsession that has led me to see most of his output, including some early ones that bored the crap out of me, and at least one later one that was atrocious. That being said he is one of the most interesting directors out there, and deserves to be in the same category as David Lynch, Brian DePalma, Davd Cronenberg, Takashi Miike, and others who make films that do not always sit easily with the masses.

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Everybody seems to forget that this film was made as a joke. Verhoeven got a lot of criticism for his film before this one called "Spetters". It was full of graphic nudity, sex, rape, you name it. The critics tore the film to ribbons. So, as a JOKE, he put even more sex, nudity and violence in this film and added purposely obvious symbolism thinking that would it appease the critics. It did. This was praised as a wonderful art film! Verhoeven didn't take this film seriously. Personally I think it's a great film.

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Wow, I didn't know about that—pretty funny!



Do you have a source?

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You took the words from my mouth. I agree with everything said.

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It's not kitsch nor tedious, but an outstandingly shot, well paced little thriller. Unfortunately, as is typical with Verhoeven, the thing ultimately never really gets anywhere interesting or profound in any sense and amounts to little more than an exercise in hollow stylistics, a showcase for the director's firm command of aesthetics. Nevertheless, since it was quite a bit of distraction while it lasted, and that it so effortlessly sustained a creepy atmosphere, 7/10 is a fair enough rating.



"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan

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