'In 20 years we will know who is right' - Under Fire (1983) Discussion

[–] theghost92-1 13 years ago

You leftist are a piece of work. Decrying "right-wing" dictators while gladly eating the spoon-fed $h!t served up bye murderous leftist regimes. I suppose you're in love with Ortega?

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[–] Eumenides_0 13 years ago

After the dictator Somoza was taken down, there were elections in Nicaragua and Ortega was elected president. International observers declared that the elections were the freest Nicaragua ever held. Only the United States seemed to find them rigged. There were free elections again in 1990, in which Ortega lost and stepped out so the new president could assume her office. So I don't see what is there to criticise Ortega about. He's behaved like a person who respects the electorial process.

More criminal were the United States, which waged a tireless war against Nicaragua for having dared to freely elect the "wrong candidate." They weren't happy until a US-backed candidate won in 1990.

This world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel.

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[–] tricksoftrade01 13 years ago

More realpolitk than criminal. Just like the Soviets not liking capitalist in their sphere of influnce, the US did not want leaders with communist/socialist agendas in theirs.

The war of ideology took precedence over small countries right to choose their leaders for much of the cold war. The world was viewed as a chessboard by both superpowers, if the US did not play the game....

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[–] Eumenides_0 12 years ago

I don't believe realpolitik can be used to excuse such actions. The USA knew what they're doing is criminal; otherwise they wouldn't try to hide the truth from the Americans through media distortions. I doubt most responsible citizens would condone their governments invading democracies and supporting dictators on the grounds of realpolitik.

This world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel.

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[–] tricksoftrade01 12 years ago

Most responsible citizens do not understand the case for realpolitik~ Henry Kissinger

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[–] ryan-anderson 12 years ago

After the dictator Somoza was taken down, there were elections in Nicaragua and Ortega was elected president. International observers declared that the elections were the freest Nicaragua ever held. Only the United States seemed to find them rigged. There were free elections again in 1990, in which Ortega lost and stepped out so the new president could assume her office. So I don't see what is there to criticise Ortega about. He's behaved like a person who respects the electorial process.

More criminal were the United States, which waged a tireless war against Nicaragua for having dared to freely elect the "wrong candidate." They weren't happy until a US-backed candidate won in 1990.

Whatever anyone may think of the Contras, I find it hard to understand why anyone would defend a scumbag like Ortega. Throwing aside his stepdaughter's allegations for a moment [i.e. his molestation of her], the Sandinista regime ruthlessly oppressed political opponents; persecuted (and murdered) the Miskito Indians; practiced wide spread censorship; and organized kangaroo courts to deal with opposition. It's true that some of the contras were comprised of former Somoza era government/military officials [especially within the leadership]....but the contras as a whole [in the rank and file] consisted of a broad coalition that included everyone from disgruntled Sandinistas to Middle Class Nicaraguans to Atlantic coast Indians. In fact, one of the biggest problems the CIA had originally was to get the various [opposition] groups working together (under a single plan). Some became part of this fight out of fear for their lives (or property).

So I don't know that Nicaragua was the big democratic paradise you make it out be under them [Ortega didn't win any election until about 5 years after his revolution]. But I freely admit that isn't the main reason we [the USA] tried to overthrow the FSLN. The main reason is because they offered assistance to other communist rebels in Central America after coming to power. (Documentation has surfaced since then that the USSR planned to use them to spread communism across Central America (much like Cuba had assisted the FSLN).) So I hope if you can criticize us for assisting the Contras you can criticize the communist bloc nations for doing the same thing.

Ignoring: GameBoyFan, ibestupid, Holiday_Hobo, sharon_18, TilaMoo, Okie-from-Muskogee/boo321, NorCalNik, Nullifidian, Ben_Doval

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[–] Eumenides_0 12 years ago

There are several groups that monitored the elections and concluded they were carried out in a democratic manner:

LASA's report:

http://www.williamgbecker.com/lasa_1984.pdf

And the findings of the Irish delegation that oversaw the elections:

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/seanad/1985/03/20/00007.asp

I especially like this part:

The report is most welcome. It is well written and extremely well presented. What continues to astonish me is the almost total absence of reporting and coverage of this report in the Irish news media. It is quite an astonishing fact that every distortion, lie and slander about the Government and the people of Nicaragua which is passed on by the international news media under the influence of the United States is reported assiduously both by our national broadcasting service and by our national newspapers.

This world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel.

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[–] ryan-anderson 12 years ago

I never said the 1984 elections were invalid. The abuses I listed by the Sandinista regime were not [100%] related to that. But even the reports you cite here make note of the fact that some individuals felt intimidated and the political process had been suppressed for years prior to the campaign season.

The 1984 elections may have been as fair as possible (under the circumstances at the time), but that does not take away from the fact that: 1) Some pretty scummy people can win elections [with or without manipulation], and 2) Our basis for wanting to overthrow them was strongly related their aim [and their supporters in Havana and Moscow] to arm other communist rebels in the region.

Ignoring: GameBoyFan, ibestupid, Holiday_Hobo, sharon_18, TilaMoo, Okie-from-Muskogee/boo321, NorCalNik, Nullifidian, Ben_Doval

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[–] deadzombie 12 years ago

Scumbag Liberals always trying to spin a story into a political statement. I have spent some time in Honduras, Nicaragua,Costa Rica.to say that the Sandinista regime is successful is total *beep* This is one of the poorest countries in the Western Hemisphere ,right nxt to Haiti.I am on my way down to Nicaragua as we speak.Not for political reasons. Everyone I talked too down there hates the Sandinistas. If you don't believe me ,take a trip down there. This movie is like a liberal Political propaganda *beep* story about the "Rev olution" incidentally Daniel Ortega just won the presidential election again in Nicaragua. How many times can he win??? total *beep* don;t buy into this crappy liberal story of poor farmers being persecuted. The people there want a country like Costa Rica where free enterprise works. If you don;t believe me ,take a trip to both countries.Oh . by the way .people are prohibited from playing music or entering a disco,club for entertainment after 11:45PM. All these liberals think that socialism is the answer to these peoples problems. Well ,they don;'t want socialism.communism down in Nicaragua. thats why thousands of people are over in Costa Rica and where I live must of the time ,Miami.

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[–] Eumenides_0 12 years ago

Ortega won elections in 1984, lost them in 1990, 1996, 2001, and won them again in 2007 and 2012. I know you're trying to make it look like he's been in power for a long time, but he hasn't. He runs for elections, sometimes wins, sometimes loses, depending on the electors' whims. That's how it works in democracy.

This world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel.

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[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Eumenides_0 12 years ago

What did the three non-Sandinista governments do for Nicaragua between Ortega's mandates? Like you said, it's been 20 years, and several governments later; and if nothing has changed, how can you throw the blame solely at Ortega?

This world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel.

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[–] capell35 12 years ago

I can not answer that question. I don't have the answer to the political or econmic question. I can only state what I did see in Costa Rica where most of the street venders and street people looking for work are refugees from Nicaragua.Also the people I have met in Miami who fled Nicaragua.Was for Economic reasons. not political.Of course they used the old story. Political persecution during the 1980's. But,it is what it is. They just cannot get the economics going.I think its because their not getting the Big time investments from corporations in Europe and United States like Costa Rica is getting.I am going down there to relocate in couple of months. I could live a pretty good lifestyle if you have some monies to throw around.Anyway ,maybe I got off the point. Unless they change the economic thinking and pursue open investment from abroad they will continue to stay down the ladder.Education is also an issue ,it doesn't seem to be a priority ,same in Honduras.I don't have the solution to what Nicaragua needs or wants.

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[–] Eumenides_0 12 years ago

Costa Rica has had an easier history than Nicaragua: for one thing it didn't have a long dictatorship; it had a short regime that lasted between 1917 and 1919. It has a solid democratic tradition, which has allowed it to grow with stability.

Then in 1940 it abolished its army, which stopped being a burden on its economy. It's worth remembering that two countries that grew quickly after World War II - Germany and Japan - also didn't have armies.

Nicaragua, between its right-wing dictatorships and communist governments, not to mention a pointless war with the USA that bled its resources, has had a rougher time. It doesn't surprise me it's worse off than Costa Rica.

This world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel.

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[–] capell35 12 years ago

What the hell does that have to do with anything.I just left Nicaragua. its not making any progess in investments from abroad ,I don;t see any new construction going down. Everyone I talked to wants to go to Costa Rica or Miami. So all you liberals with your romantic views on history is such *beep* If you go down there don;t be talking to loud about your love of the sandinista or you may have a problem .Whats with the defense of a system thats not working. its the second pooreset country next to Haiti. They keep making the same mistakes.Electing Ortega. You liberals and communists don;t get it. These people don;t want that system .I was in Honduras also when they overthrew Zelaya. Because they knew it would become another Ortega. or Chavez influenced loser. I am not getting into a pissing contest with liberals. I did not join this club to debate people like you about political *beep* I like to discuss movies. stop annoying me.

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[–] Eumenides_0 12 years ago

What does the history of a country have to do with understanding the way a country is currently? I'd argue that it has a lot to do with it. But you've made it clear you don't think history is very important to anything.

As for the love of Sandinistas, I don't know how loved or hated Ortega is, but one has to take into account the fact that he was freely elected again after three consecutive right-wing governments. Why did people choose him again? I don't know, I'm not there. But if you've been there, surely you must have known someone who voted for him. Try asking him why one day. I'd love to know the answer.

This world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel.

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[–] capell35 12 years ago

I did not join this site to debate with liberal morons. Most of the people we talked to deny they voted for Ortega .I guess their embarrassed. I can understand why. The day is coming when the Sandinista will be dead .But why don;t you go down to Nicaragua and talk to people about your liberal philosophy or whatever the hell your trying to say. You dont know anything about Central America.You have become an annoyance and not important to continue any further conversations.I have placed an ignore this poster as of this date March 05 2012

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[–] Eumenides_0 12 years ago

Well, if the Nicaraguan people have problems with Ortega, they can remedy that in the next elections. They just have not to elect him. It's that simple.

This world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel.

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[–] doobienick 12 years ago

Scumbag conservative morons ( since you and deadzombie like name calling ) seem to think it was a good idea for RayGun's Contra murderers to run loose raping and murdering American nuns, innocent men, women and children. RayGun made a huge mistake funding the Contras and to do so, he sold weapons to sworn terrorist enemies and got away with it, leaving the traitor North to take the fall. North got off on a technicality but he's a felon and a traitor.

I spend my money on dope, sex and cheap thrills.
The rest of it, I waste.

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[–] travelintom 11 years ago

I cannot believe the neocons here still defending our "interventions" in Nicaragua. There is a touching plaque dedicated Jimmy Carter in the Managua "Peace Park", they know there are still some good Americans.. Reagan, Kissinger and their ilk are rightly reviled in South and Central America where they shored up the most corrupt and most vile dictatorships...Chile, Argentina, Nicaragua, Honduras, Guatemala etc. etc. Oh, Deadhead Zombie, you like Costa Rica?...yeah, me too, they seized one of Ollie North's Contra supply planes ... it is now a restaurant and a national symbol of Costa Rica's refusal to play ball with US militarists. Our wrongheaded interventions go back for centuries, even Cuba would not have turned to Castro had we not supported the Batista dictatorship. Some of us knew what was right 40 years ago, some still wrongheaded and supporting evil, murderous dictatorships.

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[–] Joxerlives 11 years ago

Other way around, thanks to the Contras and CIA the Sandinistas were defeated and true democracy returned to Nicuragua (and their attempts to export their revolutions to their nieghbours thwarted). Thank god the US won the Cold War or Nicuragua and the rest of the region would be another Cuba as it is today

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[–] Pharaoh-in-de-Nile 11 years ago

Are you being sarcastic, Joxerlives, or are you really such a thick clump of horse manure?

"The game's afoot!"

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