MovieChat Forums > Star 80 (1984) Discussion > A good pick for the most underrated movi...

A good pick for the most underrated movie of all time.


I'm simply amazed that nobody has spoken out on this board about Star 80. Am I the only fan of this movie? I think this is bob fosse`s greatest achievement in moviemaking. It surpases his other movies on every level (and he made some GREAT ones). He was a brilliant director (and choreographer) and this is his masterpiece. Shamefully ignored on it's original release; I would expect it to get a following of some kind. It's been a favorite of mine for a long time. It's a riveting movie experience!

If you ask me if it has any faults? I would answer.. none whatsoever! It may not be in everybodys taste, but for any serious movie fan.. this is IT! The story (true and sad), directing (can not praise it enough!), acting (eric roberts in a criminally underrated performance!).. the music (ralph burns rocks!).. cinematography (sven nykvist) and editing are all great. The level of intensity.. the level of brilliance.. all that can be found in this great underrated movie!

watch it.. NOW!! and tell me what you think:-)




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This is one of my favorite movies, it is flawlessly executed. I couldn't believe his other films were by the same director, as this is way, way better. The story cannot be beat for film material, the real story and 1,000 details behind it are fascinating (most of which aren't in the film, no time to be).

The cinematography is awesome. Bogdanovich hated the movie. Interestingly enough, if you watch one of Dorothy Stratten's early movies, you can see that a lot of things that you would think were Fosse's own invention were, in fact, lifted from that movie, such as music and mood, but he was still genius with the movie.

I love the scene early on with Snyder where they are in his apartment. The mood set there is really something, but so subtle. Mariel Hemingway almost looked the best when she is in the airport with Snyder, just tall and statuesque and beautiful.

The scene of Snyder and Stratten riding along with Do You Think I'm Sexy playing is one of the best movie moments for me, you just feel something, I don't know what.

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Very interesting reply:-) I must say you have great taste.

I agree with you, of course, it's a great film and undoubtedly, the real story has much more detail behind it. I don't think this film needed any more scenes to make it stronger. I feel it has the perfect length and makes a tremendous impact on you, and just leave you numb when you finally see the end credits roll.

You say Bogdanovich hated the picture. I didn't know that. I knew fosse had screened it to him, because he met him on the studio backlot (and felt it was the right thing to do). I respect Bogdanovivh and his opinions on great movies a lot, but I think it would be difficult for him to be objective about the material since it has affected him a great deal, and given him so much deep pain and sorrow, caused by the death of his girlfriend. I have no doubt in my mind that Bogdanovich would have loved this movie if he hadn't been connected to it personally.

You mention Bob Fosse being influenced by one of Dorothy Stratten's earlier movies. Which one are you refering to? The music used in Star 80 is the same kind of music which was used in Lenny (made in 74), composed by Fosse's favorite composer Ralph Burns (underrated genius, btw). It's the same type of music underlying the scenes. Not only that, when Lenny was released, Dorothy was fourteen.

The mood, also, is one of the many things I love about this movie. And again, the mood he uses in this film is the same as his other movies. From Cabaret and onwards. His touch of dark mood is especially put to good use in Lenny (which has that edgy mood), although I feel it is most effective in Star 80.

So I do feel it was his invention all the way, but you made an interesting point. If you could explain what you meant further, that would be great :-)

Your other comments I totally agree with. The song do ya think I'm sexy is a great listen, a great party song, and matches the movie perfectly. I also like the Billy Joel song (just the way you are) which is covered in the school prom dance scene. But my favorite piece of music featured in the film is the blistering music cue composed by Ralph Burns for the scene when Paul Snider is shopping for clothes, and getting all pimped up. Man, did that cue blow me away. I have been looking for this cue for ages. I don't know if it has ever been released? if not, a shame.

Another thing that blows me away in this movie is the use of flashback. the way Bob Fosse and editor has crafted this is nothing short of brilliant! and has never before, or after, been surpassed.

This is a LONG post, and I could actually talk about this movie forever, but I have to control myself.

I want to end with just saying that I think this movie was too dark and intelligent for the mainstreem audience (and the academy) to handle back in 83, and today this movie is just a lost entity, waiting to be discovered. I am amazed by how underappreciated it still is. I love to show Star 80 to my friends, who all have different tastes in movies, and they all express and approval and admiration for it. Beccause Star 80 is so worthy of great praise!













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I have a very very rare Village Voice article, original newspaper, the Pulitzer prize wiinning article by Theresa Carpenter. I think it's called The Girl Next Door is Dead.

Bogdanovich found Mariel Hemingway "dim and cowlike" and much preferred (ugh!) Jamie Lee Curtis's rendition. I thought Mariel was perfect. You couldn't find a better person to play the role.

Bogdanovich of course never got over his girlfriend and now says he doesn't want a relationship, that his with Dorothy was the most important one and he does not want another.

I love every part of the movie

I do like the Paul Snyder shopping for clothing bit

As I said the Rod Stewart moment is a high movie moment, hard to beat

Paul boring the movie star at the mansion and keep talking to him when the guy wants to get away, was great

The girl that played Bobo was just great with her delivery

The skating scene, with Mariel skating, that band music, that was an awesome scene, you can feel 1979 L.A. (I think,not sure) and you feel like that is the good life right there at the mansion. That is completely a fantasy moment in my mind.

When Dorothy is posing in Vancouver and Paul keeps trying to dominate the shoot, is great, Mariel does a great job playing her part.

If you were to carefully watch Autumn Born you may see many areas where Fosse was influenced. It may be something that readers of Dorothy material (there is a lot of obscure stuff out there) picks up on that may be harder for the (don't know the right word) layperson?

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Interesting. You mean layman. I prefer not to categorize myself as that, as I have read alot about this movie (obscure and what not), and feel there is a great lack of material, and discussion (hence the topic) about this film. The laymen are the movie fans who haven't seen this film, which there are plenty of.

I haven't seen Autumn Born (-To bad it's only on dreaded VHS). Fosse may have been influenced by it when he was in research. Every good director has been influenced in some way or another by someone else's work, and made it their own (except for Paul W.S. Anderson). Fosse is one of my favorite directors, because of his distinctive directorial style (like Kubrick, but still different) and he was obscenely talented. Very underrated also, as he is never mentioned in the same breath as Kubrick or the other greats. His stage work is well recognized, while his filmmaking career remains overlooked (to some degree).

You keep mentioning great scenes from the film. Here is my 2 cents (standard american expression):

* I love the scene where they hold Snider out of the window, while he screams and begs for his life. A disturbing moment with pure malice (wonderfully acted and directed).

* Another scene is when Snider cuts up a picture of him and Dorothy. He cuts out his face, and hers, which speaks volumes about the character.

* And of course the ending. which is one of the most effective endings ever put to film.

Eric roberts gives one of the best performances of the eighties. He has later said that the role limited him afterwards. Only being offered bad-guy roles.

Mariel of course is also excellent and it's hard imagining someone else in that role (the best kudos one can give).

I feel like Antonio Salieri in Amadeus (1984). I am able to see the genius, but few else can. Except for the people who actually knows this movie exists, and appreciate the greatness. Fosse thought it was his greatest film, and I agree with him.

I want to see more of these articles:

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/commentary/0,6115,535701_1%7C22135%7C%7C0_0_,00.html




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Now that I think of it, why did they hang him out of the window?

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[deleted]

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Are you trying to be funny?

What's the point of your post? It's the sort of thing high school kids spew out. Very childish, Queensdaddy!

Your reasons for not liking this movie is ridiculously over simplified!
Give me something more, pal.

This movie is unlike anything I have ever seen. A work of ART! A perfect 10+

And thanks for hammering my point down. "FEW ELSE" are able to see the genius. Actually, the people who likes this movie ranges from few to none. Mainly because most haven't seen it, or because they have and are incredibly narrow-minded. Thanks for dragging me down to your level of foolish subjectivity!

I STILL feel like Antonio Salieri in Amadeus. I am not being full of myself, it's the TRUTH! The sooner you see that, the better:-)

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[deleted]

Oh, I'm happy and honoured. This was the only thing missing in my life. Thanks alot, papa!

As for this film being perfect. I actually think it is. And it has for a while been my favorite flick. I don't even think of it as an odd or unusual choice. But saying more to you would be futile.

Glad you liked my previous posts on this board. All 20 of them! You don't blame me for that solidarity since this is my favorite of favorites?


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[deleted]

I have posted elsewhere rather extensively about Star 80, but after I posted, I realized I had more to write -- Star 80 could be dissected scene by scene, and I would not grow bored.

There are folks who appreciate this film. Richard Schickel of Time gave it a rave review. A lot of critics hated it, but they are often philistines. The reviewer for USA Today said that after seeing the film, he wanted to take a bath. Love this film or hate it, it certainly leaves a residue on your brain.

I think Warner Home Video should release a better DVD, letterboxed at the very least.

It is absurd that this film wasn't nominated for even one Oscar, in a weak year like 1983 no less.

Star 80 is probably my favorite Fosse film, and that is saying something, consdering he also directed All That Jazz, Cabaret and Lenny.

Fosse might be the greatest genius of all, because nobody, and I mean not even Orson Welles, mastered the separate arts of filmmaking, stage direction and choreography. Think of it. Few people master even one of these arts. Fosse was also a great screenwriter on top of it. Among his many, many accomplishments, is that rare, unprecendented, never-to-be-topped trifecta -- winning the Oscar, The Tony and The Emmy in the same year. Mel Brooks has won an Oscar, Tony and Emmy, but it took him 30 years.

Now, on to Star 80.

First, in response to a previous post -- Snider was hung out a hotel window because of gambling debts. OK, let's analyze this scene. First, Paul takes great pride in his personal appearance and bearing. He is meticulous about his appearance, which in psychology circles is called "impression management." So what is the worst thing, the most upsetting thing that can happen to Paul Snider? He gets vomit all over his nice new shirt. This scene also tells a lot of important things about Paul -- what kind of people he hangs out with, what sort of dubious entertprises he's involved in. Most importantly, we see how headstrong and obstinate Paul is, no matter how hopeless the situation. Arguing with a bookie over the point spread is a hopeless task, as point spreads are basically a bookie's lifeblood. Even when he's beaten, Paul tries to get what he can. This is evident in a scene in the Playboy Mansion, where he is playing a pinball machine with Bobo Weller. We see Paul try to "English" the machine into giving him another ball -- the perfect metaphor for Paul's character, as he tries to hustle and talk people into doing things they don't really want to do (recall the first time he takes Dorothy home, first seducing her, then getting her to pose naked for the camera). Most people would be put off by rejection, but Paul seems inspired by it. He simply doesn't take no for an answer, either from a pinball machine or a woman. When his will is truly thwarted (by someone even more powerful, such as Heffner), Snider goes ballistic (literally).

The use of music -- Billy Joel's Big Shot is used at least twice. This has multiple meanings. Paul is truly a big shot, in terms of his swaggering arrogance, but the "Big Shot" can also refer to the bullet he puts in his brain (and in another ballistic metaphor, he takes his "big shot" and blows it).

Billy Joel's Just The Way You Are has a title that says it all. Paul wants to keep Dorothy just as he found her, a pliable bimbo who will do his bidding and serve as his meal ticket to the big time. When she decides to change, Paul goes off the deep end. Suitably enough, this song is played at the senior prom, which represents the immaturity and innocence of Dorothy (and also underscores Paul's lack of maturity -- everyone else on the dancefloor is a teenager, Paul's in his late 20's -- to me, this is the perfect way to show that Paul has progressed beyond the adolescent phase).

Also, during the prom, Paul overhears the jock say "hi" to Dorothy, and he realizes this is the guy who took her virginity. So Paul sticks the jock with a nail file. This scene is absolutely brilliant, because it accomplishes numerous purposes -- first, we see that Paul indeed has a unique ability to "read" other people instantly. Also, when he contemptuously refers to the guy as a "jock," we get the idea that Paul had a terrible time in high school, was in fact a "nerd," and he has spent the subsequent time building himself up into becoming a "real man," or at least his version of manhood, which is influenced by Playboy (recall all the tear-sheets from Playboy on the wall as Paul pumps iron). Also, the nail file stabbing shows that Paul is not merely vindictive, but also sneaky. He has no qualms about jabbing someone when his guard is down. In addition, a nail file seems like a rather pathetic, unmasculine weapon, but it can indeed be painful (and then we see him use the very same nail file during the flashforward murder/suicide scene, as he scratches away Dorothy's face from a photo on the wall).

Another interesting motif in this film involves what I call "imagery of falling." There are repeated shots of people falling, top to bottom of frame, most dramatically during the final rape/murder/suicide scene. The final shot of the film shows Dorothy and Paul from a high angle, as if they have both fallen from grace, and reached the bottom of Hell. Another metaphor is Humpty-Dumpty -- in Aram's office, we see a doll perched precariously on a bookshelf when he first meets Dorothy. Also, Paul is held by his feet from the hotel room by the goons -- the perfect image of a man on the edge, about to fall to his doom -- in fact, when he is tossed out the window, the camera pans and sweeps quickly toward the ground, giving us a sense of vertiginous imminent collapse (the same sort of foreboding is presented in the carnival sequence, with its up-sideways-and-down rides which serve as suitable symbols to Paul's crazy trajectory).

One of the key scenes in the film has Paul commisserating with Geb in the bathroom. Geb hits the bullseye, seeing through all of Paul's surface charm when he says, "In this town, there's always going to be someone with more money than you, there's always going to be someone with a longer penis than you." That last one really gets to Paul. It is significant that Paul's de-facto shrink is not a mere doctor, but a plastic surgeon.

Geb's character deserves commentary -- he is a nice enough guy, but he is just as shallow as everyone else on the westside. He drives a Rolls, which he absurdly claims is an investment (quite often rich people are embarrassed about conspicious consumption, and try to ascribe other motives to their greedy behavior), and he moves from less affluent Orange County to ply his trade as a plastic surgeon in Beverly Hills. What lofty ambitions these people have!

In sum, there's a lot to discuss and analzye in this film. More to come...

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Don't blame you at aall and I agree with almost everything you have said about this film. It is a dark, disturbing, haunting film experience and a triumph of directing for Fosse and acting by Eric Roberts. I, too, am unable to imagine anyone but Mariel playing Dorothy. I think she is magical here and has never appeared more beautiful in a move than she did here. I think Fosse and Roberts were both robbed of Oscar nominations. I cannot tell you how many times I have watched this movie (it's probably well past 50) and I still discover new things about it every time I watch it...a neglected and taken for granted classic.

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You sure got pissed of fast there, buddy :-)

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My take , for what it`s worth, on why this movie did`nt get the recognition it realy deserves, is the depressing fact that it`s based on FACT! It`s compelling. Not just the story, but the cast!
We rented this in the mid 80`s along with a documentary of Dorothy Stratton at our local vidio rental store. I was rivited by Eric Roberts, but seeing the footage of Paul Snider in the documenary, he actually looked a whole lot like David Arquett!
I think I "enjoy" this film because of the strong preformances, and maybe, because it is based on fact. Many of the stand-out scenes that were mentioned by everyone here, were fascinating, and ofcourse, the ending was chilling,and sad, but nobody mentioned that thing at the BAR-B-Q. The neighbors and freinds are all there, and the guys are all checking out Paul`s inventions in "exercise equiptment". They pull out this thing that looks like something that you lay on to lift wieghts....sort of....The guys are laughing...Dorothy asks what it`s for...somebody whispers in her ear,and she and Paul look at each other. You can see that she has dropped a few more notches on the respect meter. (I would be SOOOO ashamed!) You see Paul trying to brush it off as just a joke, but you see them looking at each other...her, so dissapointed in him, and ashamed, and him, trying to shrug it off as a joke, but watch them when they look at each other. That was sad and creepy at the same time.
This is`nt a crash that you can`t help watching...This is an interesting film. The facts may not be right-on. As disturbing as it is, I think it`s a great film!

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To answer your question about Bogdanovich disliking this movie, he stated that it was very inaccurate and did not give a true portrayal of DS - this was in his book, "The Killing of the Unicorn." He thought it made Hefner look like a father figure, Eric Roberts was too good looking for the role and made Snider seem too nice, Hemmingway was too boyish in her figure and didn't capture the beauty and vuluptuousness of DS, she also made DS look stupid. He actually loved the other movie, the made for TV one with Jamie Lee Curtis, "Death of a Centerfold." He indicated that even though JLC had no physical resemblence to DS whatsoever, it was an extremely accurate portrayal, in his opinion, of Snider.

In my opinion, I loved Star 80, and I thought the movie wasn't really about DS as it was about Snider. It focused more on him, probaby because he was the one with the psychosis.

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A few other thoughts -- When Paul buys his dream car, the Mercedes, an ambulance with sirens blaring drives by on Sunset Boulevard. I think this is meant to foreshadow the murder/suicide. Certainly it is an eerie touch. Also, even though Paul has a Mercedes, his roommate Geb has a Rolls. Paul is still low man on the totem pole.

The scene with the photographer -- we see how much of a control freak Paul is as he tries to tell the photographer how to photograph Dorothy. It is yet another scene in which Paul tries to manipulate someone else, but Paul fails, and is banished into an adjacent room until the photoshoot is complete. This scene is a good microcosm for the whole story -- Paul brings Dorothy to public view, and is then cast aside. This happens on a bigger scale when Dorothy becomes a Playmate, and Hefner sends Paul into the L.A. version of exile -- he's off the Mansion guest list. While Paul gets even with the photographer by screwing him over on the finder's fee, there's no screwing over a heavyweight like Hefner. There is also a humorous reference to the filmmaking process during the photo shoot, when Paul says, "Too many directors."

In a previous post, I mentioned Billy Joel's Just The Way You Are. I said that Paul didn't want Dorothy to change, but that's not entirely true. This is sort of a Pygmalion story, in which he turns a naive young girl into a sex symbol. Sadly for Paul, her outward change is accompanied by interior change, as she becomes more mature and realizes there are better men out there for her. So the song has double meaning, because Paul wants to change her, but always wants her to stay the same.

Finally, regarding Rod Stewart, his Tonight The Night, not in the film, is about an older man seducing a teenager, and I believe that Do Ya Think I'm Sexy explores the same themes. Whoever chose the music for this film really put some thought into it.

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The Band's Up On Cripple Creek plays over the Playboy Mansion scene, when Paul meets his idol, Hugh Hefner. The song is about a ne'er do well who is financially supported by his girlfriend. Perfect.

Whoever selected the music did a great job -- most of the songs (like Big Shot and YMCA were truly on the charts when this story unfolded. And all of the songs serve a sort of Greek Chorus commentary/counterpoint to the events depicted in the film.

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>>>is the blistering music cue composed by Ralph Burns for the scene when Paul Snider is shopping for clothes, and getting all pimped up.

if i'm, not mistaken, that's the bridge from billy joel's "stiletto" playing, at least in part of that snider/clothing scene. have to watch it again to place it exactly. . .

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Yup, it's the brige from Stiletto -- it's on Billy Joel's 1978 LP, 52nd Street (there is an abundance of 1978 songs in the film -- YMCA, Do Ya Think I'm Sexy, Big Shot, etc.)

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Yes it's from stiletto.. but what you hear in the film is a ralph burns re-orchestration of that tune. I ripped that melody from the film and made an mp3 of it. I surely hope the soundtrack for this movie will be released. I also love the exciting tubular bells type of melody played under the montage scenes when Snyder is bying a shotgun. And of course the sad and melancholic music played over the end credits and throughout the film.

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I love this film. I'm not sure whether it's the most underrated film of all time, but Eric Roberts certainly puts in one of the most overlooked performances of all time.

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It's a fantastic movie but...I can never watch it again. It's just too disturbing. The last scene between the two of them is unbelievably depressing. What a fresh-faced thing of beauty she was, what a sweet soul, and he had to destroy her.

But yes, Bob Fosse did an amazing job on it, as did everyone else.

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i had a dream the other night that i was dorothy stratten. well, it
wasn't so much that i was her as it was that paul was chasing me with a
shot gun trying to strap me into that contraption. i'm not trying to be
excessive or inappropriate, but can anyone tell me exactly what it was
that he used to restrain her? i remember the movie being told in a
non-descript way, and i'm just curious as to what the hell happened.

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It's amazing that I haven't seen these posts until now. I must have seen Star 80 dozens of times, I have read Peter Bogdanovich's "The Killing of the Unicorn", I have read Mariel Hamingway's "Finding my Balance" (curious, her birthday was the day before your post). This is the movie of my life (sorry if this sounds a bit silly but it's true). Ralph Burns's theme in the opening and in the end are awesome. The skating scene in the mansion and the cars in the highway next to their apartment are two unforgettable moments for me.
I'm glad I'm not the only one.

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It's a perfect movie.

The barbeque scene. "I only made it as a joke." Didn't Freud say there are no jokes? Someone else said, many true words were spoken in jest. Sometimes sociopaths try to brush off their aberrant behavior by saying, "Oh, I was just kidding, ha ha." Like when Charlie Manson applied for a credit card when he was in prison.

Paul likes to build things -- Dorothy's career, a doghouse for King -- and then, out of financial desperation, bondage apparatus.

It's the feel good film of November 1983.

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i like your assessment, fluffer.

Honestly, I see Star 80 as the precuroser to the best film of the 90's, Goodfellas.
Everyone who loves the film will know what I'm talking about, and it's not the least farfetched...everyone who doesn't like the film will obviously disagree. This film is way ahead of its time. Whether it's better than Goodfellas is not even up for debate...I do feel Goodfellas might not have been possible were it not for this film.

Kudos to Eric Roberts. You are a genius, good luck to you and your future endeavors.

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I have a theory about the low rating for Star 80. It's horrible. WAIT! Before you drill me a new orifice, let me explain. I consider the movie to be a masterpiece and Eric Robert's depiction of Snider was inspired. The occurences and characters are what make the experience of watching it horrible. Even our appreciation or even love for great film-making isn't going to change the perception that we are watching events and people who are horrible (I'll try not to repeat that word for the duration of this post). The average Joe, coming home from a hard days work isn't likely to pop this in the DVD player. Even people who claim that they don't crave 'feel good' movies might have a hard time with this one. So I think the polarity of opinion will persist. The people who see it as a masterpeice will revere it. People who evaluate movies according to how cheerful it made them feel afterward will not rate it highly. These people probably find the film depressing, I disagree.

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It's true, this film is depressing, almost nihilistic. You have to accept that going in and not let it get in the way.

Star 80 was totally shut out by Oscar, because there was no moral uplift, no silver lining (like there was in that year's Best Picture winner, Terms of Endearment). Star 80 avoids the sort of sentimentality that Oscar honors.

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My first post ever on IMDB, back in 2005. Happy to see it is still here :)

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very underrated. It was too dark for the 80s.

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Yup. Bob Fosse said it was his best work, and I would have to agree.

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