MovieChat Forums > Revenge of the Ninja (1983) Discussion > Any movies about REAL ninja?

Any movies about REAL ninja?


None of this pop culture, cliché bogus that permeates in society today.

Something kinda like Sam Fisher in splinter cell. Any of that lately?

I hate you, you're a pee pee!

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[deleted]

I haven't seen any of them yet, but there's a Japanese movie series from the '60s called Shinobi No Mono which apparently center on ninja. Again, I haven't seen them myself (and wouldn't know the difference between real and fake when it comes to ninjitsu anyway), but I'm hoping they at least would be free of all the Americanized crap. They're on Netflix.

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Shinobi no Mono, at least the first one. I think there are 8 total, but I've only seen the first 3. I hear they get a little crazy later on, but the first one is pretty realistic, or at least closer than most ninja movies.



"Two tigers cannot live on the same mountain"

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Real ninja basically disappeared from history in the 1600s, but there's enough documentation to work from. They were generally spies and assassins, guys that did the dirty work that was deemed beneath a samurai. No clue where the idea for dudes in coloured pyjamas came from, but there's no historical evidence for that whatsoever. Like the burning of the Shaolin monastery, the only known tales are fictional.

I guess real ninja aren't deemed cinematic enough, being guys that dressed up like everyone else so as not to give themselves away, something running around a white room dressed all in black would possibly do.

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>I guess real ninja aren't deemed cinematic enough, being guys that dressed up like everyone else so as not to give themselves away

You mean like burglars and bank robbers always dress like everyone else so as not to give themselves away, you know, rather than wearing e.g., a ski mask?

>No clue where the idea for dudes in coloured pyjamas came from, but there's no historical evidence for that whatsoever.

I doubt you'll find any conclusive historical evidence that, say, burglars in 17th-century England, ever wore dark clothes and a mask when breaking into someone's house at night (that's not the sort of thing that tends to get scribed into historical documents), but it's a safe assumption that some, if not most, of them did. It's simply common sense from a criminal's perspective to wear dark clothes at night so as to not be so easily seen, and a mask so that, in case you are seen, you can't be identified. A ninja (or anyone else) breaking into someone's house at night would be stupid to not wear dark clothes and a mask. The so-called "coloured pyjamas" are nothing more than traditional Japanese clothes plus a mask.

By the way, there is in fact historical evidence for it. For example:

JAPAN: NINJA, 1817. Ninja climbing a rope. Woodblock print by Katsushika Hokusai, 1817 - https://www.granger.com/results.asp?image=0613169&itemw=4&itemf=0001&itemstep=1&itemx=16&screenwidth=1152

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Dark clothed ninja may makes sense, but red ninja, blue ninja, golden ninja, etc. are simply ridiculous.

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I'm sure there were never bright colored ninja. Why would there be? What purpose would it serve? Maybe ninja sometimes utilized white suits for certain winter ops, though.

The existence of masked ninja in dark clothing seems attested to in history though, including the woodblock linked to above.

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maybe they had "Dress uniforms"

the modern militarys have some pretty wild n wacky outfits

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It's funny you post this now because just in the last few weeks I have become acquainted with the work of a guy named Antony Cummins. He's a historical researcher who had a lot of his ideas about ninjas shattered as he started really diving into the history. He began looking at many of the ancient scrolls that are still in existence and he has even, with the help of a professional translator, had some of the most important ones translated into English.

His conclusion is that there is no evidence from the time when ninja were actually active--circa the 1400s to 1600s--to show that they ever at all wore what we now think of as the ninja uniform. Every reference to such a uniform comes later in history.

He also thinks that you shouldn't separate from ninjas from samurai and that ninjas were simply samurai who had additional training in spycraft and who acted as spies.

There's also a historian who has done some work in this area named Stephen Turnbull. He's written a few books on the subject but here's a paper he wrote that dives into the subject a bit:

https://digitalcommons.kennesaw.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1161&context=jgi

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"His conclusion is that there is no evidence from the time when ninja were actually active--circa the 1400s to 1600s--to show that they ever at all wore what we now think of as the ninja uniform."

That's because it's not really a "uniform." As I said before, it's just traditional Japanese clothes plus a balaclava type mask. A karate or judo uniform is the same idea, i.e., traditional Japanese shirt and pants, except without a mask. A ninja hundreds of years ago sneaking around at night would be just as likely to wear dark colored clothes and a mask as a modern day burglar would be to wear dark clothes and a ski mask / balaclava. Dark clothes make you less visible at night and a mask conceals your identity if someone does happen to get a good look at you. Those are important things to people who are doing shady things at night, for obvious reasons.

Here's an example of traditional Japanese clothing:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/MitoKomonSatomiKotaro.jpg

Note that he's even wearing those cloth gauntlet things that cover his forearms and part of his hands which are part of a typical "ninja uniform" in the movies. Now make those clothes black/dark, tuck his shirt sleeves into those gauntlet things, and tie strings around his baggy pant legs to keep loose clothing from getting in the way while he's climbing a tree or whatever, and what do you have? You have a "ninja uniform;" you just need to put on a balaclava, which can be made from two square pieces of cloth (such as large handkerchiefs; that particular guy in the picture is already wearing half of a makeshift balaclava, i.e., the half that covers the top of the head).

In other words, a "ninja uniform" was just regular clothes of the time plus a balaclava, no different than burglars commonly wear today.

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Are you aware of any materials from the period in question--1400 to 1600--that illustrate or even talk about ninjas wearing masks? As I understand it, nothing has been found. You can speculate and say, "Well of course they'd wear masks if they were trying to infiltrate a castle" or whatever, but I am asking if we have anything more than speculation. For instance, are there any known scrolls from the period dealing with the topic of the shinobi craft that mention wearing masks?

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"Are you aware of any materials from the period in question--1400 to 1600--that illustrate or even talk about ninjas wearing masks? As I understand it, nothing has been found."

I don't know anything about any materials from that time period, but it wouldn't surprise me if there's no mention of masks, because why would something so obvious and trivial find its way into a historical document? As for artwork, is there any from that time period that depicts ninjas at all?

"You can speculate and say, "Well of course they'd wear masks if they were trying to infiltrate a castle" or whatever, but I am asking if we have anything more than speculation."

It's more common sense than speculation. People who do similar things today tend to wear masks (and gloves, since the advent of fingerprints being used as evidence); they would be stupid not to. So were ninjas too stupid to take a simple and obvious precaution against being identified, even dumber than a common thief-in-the-night today?

Their masks probably would have looked like this:

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/2HD565P/19th-century-vintage-photograph-1860s-japan-carte-de-visite-attributed-to-felix-beato-studio-japanese-woman-in-winter-clothes-2HD565P.jpg

That 19th-century Japanese woman is wearing one as part of her cold-weather attire, not because she's up to no good in the middle of the night, just as a modern-day skier often wears a modern ski mask as part of his cold weather attire, whereas a modern-day burglar often wears one to conceal his face because he's up to no good.

And of course they wouldn't have worn masks all the time, because they weren't part of any standardized uniform. It's known that they often disguised themselves as e.g., a logger or a farmer or a castle guard, or whatever. What they wore would entirely depend on what they planned to do.

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It was only recently that I learned of the existence of the scrolls that have been found, as well as the translations that have been done by Antony Cummins and associates. They sound interesting and I intend to look into them more fully.

I'll agree it's a logical thought that they would've worn masks when doing covert infiltration work, and that photo is interesting.

It sounds like this may be a subject that you have a lot of interest in. Is that the case?

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"that photo is interesting"

I think so too. It's from the 1860s and she looks very much like the popular depiction of a ninja, and she isn't even trying. Even the faded blend of dark blues and grays in her clothing are good for minimizing your visibility at night (some people say that dark blues and grays are even better than black for that). Give her some "tabi" type footwear and those gauntlet things and voila, she's a ninja.

If I were in charge of the production of a ninja movie set in Japan a few hundred years ago, I would have the costume department try to duplicate what that woman is wearing, down to the crude and well-worn/weathered fabric, and the dark grays mixed with areas of dark blues. I think that would give it a sense of authenticity, even if no one can prove exactly what any given historical ninja actually wore on any given night.

"It sounds like this may be a subject that you have a lot of interest in. Is that the case?"

I find the arguments over the historicity of the stereotypical "ninja uniform" and "ninja sword" (similar to a katana, but with a shorter and straight blade, and a square guard) interesting. I think they were both likely used historically to one extent or another. One of the arguments against them is that a ninja wouldn't carry a special type of sword that would identify them as a ninja. I posted this hypothetical conversation in reply to someone who made that argument:

(1588 or later):

Ninja: I need a sword.

Swordsmith: Are you a samurai?

Ninja: No.

Swordsmith: Then I can not legally make you a katana.

Ninja: I am a chonin.

Swordsmith: Very well, I can legally make you a wakizashi then.

Ninja: How much will it cost?

Swordsmith: How much do you want to spend?

Ninja: Not much.

Swordsmith: I can not make you a premium wakizashi for 'not much' money, but here's what I can do: I can make a basic one with a maru cross section, using only kawagane.

Ninja: What's the difference?

Swordsmith: The premium one will warp into a curved profile when it's water-quenched, due to the complex and time-consuming sandwiching of hagane, kawagane, and shigane during the forging process. It will have a flexible spine and a hard edge. The bargain-priced one is a lot easier to make and will remain straight when water-quenched. It won't hold an edge as well as, and will break easier than, the premium one.

Ninja: Okay, make me the cheap one.

In other words, the only thing a short, straight sword would identify someone as is a non-samurai who is a bargain shopper. And carrying a full-fledged katana if you're not a samurai would really be asking for trouble.

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