I don't understand the hate for this movie - Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983) Discussion

[–] ctreyz-15722 7 years ago

one word: ewoks. invented to sell stuffed toys. it dragged the whole movie down. i loved the movie but even back then it struck us as a bit too odd.

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[–] Volley2020 7 years ago

Should have been a Wookie slave planet instead of Ewoks, might have tied things up nicely for Chewbacca as well, seeing as how he didn't get a medal at the Battle of Yavin.

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[–] Kruleworld 7 years ago

Should have been a Wookie

Lucas originally intended it to be Wookie, but felt they were too technologically advanced for the kind of primative vs technological battle that he wanted. So as he says, 'I cut them in half and called them Ewoks'

"He's dusted, busted and disgusted, but he's ok"

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[–] manchof1 7 years ago

ROTJ suffers from an unfocused narrative and an uneven tone, it didn't know how to tell the story it wanted to tell by cluttering it up with Jabba's palace for the first half hour therby rushing the film's actual story to be told in 1 hour and 30 minutes. Then focusing too much on the Ewoks and not enough on Luke, Vader, and the Emperor and rehashing another Death Star subplot. Also undercutting the film's dark climax with the Ewoks doing silly slapstick. Leia being Luke's sister seemed more like an afterthought to tie up the love triangle between the three main characters. And Vader suddenly becoming good and him having good in him though never speculated or touched upon in the previous films (not taking into the account of the prequels). Overall, ROTJ has some great scenes buts its not a very good movie. Attack of the Clones has a more thoughtout story.

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[–] death-lord 7 years ago

No...attack of the clones had NO story

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[–] DarklordRB 7 years ago

I'm not asking for perfection in this movie, because I thought this was a very enjoyable experience, and I find it very dubious that Attack of the Clones is rated higher than Return. Attack of the Clones was the dullest Star Wars movie ever made. Also, I'm getting really tired of people griping about the Ewoks, it's as bad as the people griping about the Stormtroopers having bad aim.

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[–] manchof1 7 years ago

I'm just saying Attack of the Clones' narrative is more solid than Return of the Jedi's and that's the truth. Clones is a character and world building film so of course its going to be slower than Return of the Jedi since that film is mostly fluff.

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[–] DarklordRB 7 years ago

It also doesn't change the truth that Attack of the Clones is less received by critics than the other SW movies. Roger Ebert and Leonard Maltin awarded it two stars despite them liking all the other previous SW movies.

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[–] manchof1 7 years ago

Its still mostly agreed that its better than The Phantom Menace, I remember when it came out it was considered better and I even thought so as a kid after seeing both in theaters.

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[–] death-lord 7 years ago

you have no taste in movies if you think attack of the clones had anything resembling a story

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[–] manchof1 7 years ago

Then you didn't pay attention while watching it or have only seen it once.

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[–] death-lord 7 years ago

Still no story

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[–] Hendry_William_French 7 years ago

didn't know how to tell the story it wanted to tell by cluttering it up with Jabba's palace for the first half hour therby rushing the film's actual story to be told in 1 hour and 30 minutes

Han's rescue was a big deal as it follows on from Empire and gets all the heroes together again in one place and in on the action for the first time since the original. You see how Luke has grown as he leads the attack at the sarlaac.

90 mins was more than enough to wrap up the remainder of the story. Go beyond that and you're going into LOTR coma inducing drag levels.

Then focusing too much on the Ewoks and not enough on Luke, Vader, and the Emperor and rehashing another Death Star subplot.

Luke, Vader and the Emporer got enough screentime - their scenes are pretty drawn out. The Ewoks helped fight the empire so were important, but I never thought they got precedence over anything else.

I've heard plenty of Star Wars fans criticize the new death star concept but it makes perfect sense that the Empire would try to build a new and improved version. Also, the alternatives to this (such as having an assault on Coruscant instead) was too over-elaborate. The Death Star is simple and effective, and looked great half completed.

And Vader suddenly becoming good and him having good in him though never speculated or touched upon in the previous films

I thought it was a dramatic and surprising climax to see that, really powerful. I never saw it as evil Vader coming good, but rather the spirit of Anakin Skywalker reawakening to who he once was before he was vader.

Attack of the Clones has a more thoughtout story.

Attack of the Clones is a confusing, meandering mess. At least ROTJ's story was to the point.

I am Djour Djilios. Could you spell that please? I don't think so. Try it with a "D".

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[–] manchof1 7 years ago

Han's rescue was a big deal as it follows on from Empire and gets all the heroes together again in one place and in on the action for the first time since the original. You see how Luke has grown as he leads the attack at the sarlaac.

It could have been told faster instead of everyone getting captured and then somehow making it all work out in the end. The Han rescue mission could have been told in 10 to 20 minutes tops. They should have started the film with the droids and Luke approaching Jabba's palace and then Luke gets captured and sentenced to the Sarlaac pit, then spring into action with Lando and Leia incognito, then free Han from carbonite.

Luke, Vader and the Emporer got enough screentime - their scenes are pretty drawn out. The Ewoks helped fight the empire so were important, but I never thought they got precedence over anything else.

I've heard plenty of Star Wars fans criticize the new death star concept but it makes perfect sense that the Empire would try to build a new and improved version. Also, the alternatives to this (such as having an assault on Coruscant instead) was too over-elaborate. The Death Star is simple and effective, and looked great half completed.

The problem is more time was spent on the Ewoks than on the film's main plotline, that's like sidetracking the fall of Anakin Skywalker in Episode III with cutesy side characters on Mustafar. And the fact remains that more time was spent on Anakin's fall in Episode III than on his redemption in Episode VI. And reusing the Death Star plotline again was still lazy just so there would be a big dogfight in the third act.

I thought it was a dramatic and surprising climax to see that, really powerful. I never saw it as evil Vader coming good, but rather the spirit of Anakin Skywalker reawakening to who he once was before he was vader.

Still it is NEVER touched upon that Vader has good in him in IV and V mainly because he was never originally going to be Luke's father, compared to Episode I and II that shows Anakin is a good person with darkness in him so his turn to evil is more believable than his redemption.

Attack of the Clones is a confusing, meandering mess. At least ROTJ's story was to the point.

Wrong. Attack of the Clones is a character and world building film that places the chess pieces to the backdrop of Episode III as does Episode I.

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[–] DarklordRB 7 years ago

Listen, your love for the prequels and nitpicks for Return of the Jedi are esoteric at best.

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[–] manchof1 7 years ago

Not everyone has to love the OT and hate the PT, the world isn't black and white.

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[–] Kruleworld 7 years ago

I've heard plenty of Star Wars fans criticize the new death star concept

it was the perfect bait. The rebels were confident they could destroy it, since they'd done so before, and it was something they couldn't ignore lest a death star be unleashed on the galaxy again.

"He's dusted, busted and disgusted, but he's ok"

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[–] triplegrim 7 years ago

ROTJ suffer from an unfocused narrative. If Lucas had put in all the deleted scenes, and filmed 10 minutes more of Exposition, he could have split ROTJ into two movies if 1 hour 20 minutes. The way Movies often were in the 80s....

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[–] huntersmithx 7 years ago

My thoughts exactly.

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[–] Conan-1982 7 years ago

"This movie has a lower rating than Attack of the Clones"

Waaaaa ? No it doesn't , not here on IMDB at least. Where did you see that ?

Here I see ROTJ 8.4 and AOTC 6.7 , unless my eyes are cheated by some spell ...

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[–] manchof1 7 years ago

It's rated lower on Metacritic which is more accurate than IMDB.

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[–] ethannorthup 7 years ago

I was looking at the metacritic scores. Right now ROTJ has a 53 and AOTC has a 54, but when I originally wrote this I'm pretty sure the gap was bigger

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[–] DeliciousSandwich 7 years ago

Anyone who thinks Attack of the Clones is better the ROTJ should be dragged into the streets and stoned to death.

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[–] manchof1 7 years ago

AOTC is better than ROTJ, so procede to stone me now.

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[–] death-lord 7 years ago

*beep* off

Describe the plot of attack of the clones without saying any star wars elements

You can't

Return of the jedi is about redemption, while attack of the clones is nothing but kiddy explosions

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[–] manchof1 7 years ago

Return of the Jedi had more kiddy explosions than Attack of the Clones and Clones actually had a solid plotline unlike Jedi. Jedi had a very fractured story and 15 minutes of good scenes isn't enough to save it.

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[–] death-lord 7 years ago

Describe the plot of attack of the clones without mentioning star wars elements

Return of the jedi is remembered

While attack of the clones is trash

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[–] manchof1 7 years ago

Attack of the Clones is remembered

While Return of the Jedi is trash

This is more accurate, ROTJ was unfocused garbage.

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[–] death-lord 7 years ago

attack of the clones left no impact on pop culture

return of the jedi is still in the top 250

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[–] Volley2020 7 years ago

Everyone I talk to outside of the Internet, as in real life customers, acquaintances, friends, and family, loves Return of the Jedi the most, but when I get down to the Internet forums, ROTJ is bashed, despite the amazing reviews. It doesn't make sense.

In an era where the prequel trilogy needs to be rewritten and reshot, not sure why people are complaining about the 1983 film that defined Star Wars for decades afterwards. The 90's Star Wars books, comics, PC games, and other entertainment were heavily inspired by the final Star Wars film.

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[–] HellboundHero 7 years ago

Fanboys are always so insecure of anything they like being perceived as childish or campy.

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[–] iamhomercles 7 years ago

You have to remember that these are still family films and as such have to contain some element of lightheartedness to balance out all the dark and menacing stuff. I was a kid when ROTJ came out and it was the first that I saw in the cinema. I remember loving all the scenes on Endor. Had it concentrated on the disturbing stuff on the death star too much it would never have been rated U and maybe not even PG and that would have lost most of its audience.

For me ROTJ is infinitely better than AOTC simply because it has the well developed characters that you actually care about. All of the prequel films suffer with the same problem that you don't really care for any of the characters, partly because they were badly acted, but mostly because the dialogue was generally awful!

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[–] VivaLaVader 7 years ago

Ewoks

"George, you can type this *beep* but you can't say it."

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[–] aillas55 7 years ago

Ewoks, poor dialogue and the characters are a bit blander than they were in the other films. The sense of humour was a bit off as well. I don't see how people were surprised/disappointed in Ep 1. The signs were all here in which direction GL was heading.

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[–] adamgraydon 7 years ago

I don't understand the hate for this movie either. It may not be the best of the original trilogy but it is way up there and way better than any other Star Wars film that came after it.

I thought the opening was excellent. A great mix of humor, action and suspense. Keep in mind that in 1983 there was no internet so that all characters were fresh every second. The main cast was re-introduced in an exciting way - Leia's badass bounty hunter disguise (and then beautiful costume change later), Luke coming forth as a Jedi.

I like how there is some build up to the exciting battle scene. First of all they are the good guys - their methods are not to go and kill everything in their path (that would be more like the Empire). Luke gives Jabba plenty of opportunity to surrender Han peacefully.

I love the Rancor scene, the way Luke kills the Rancor, that took some actual thought. In the prequels, you know what would happen, Anakin hacks him with a light saber..

The Ewoks? I think the Ewoks are never given a fair chance by SW fans. First of all, they really don't appear all that much in the movie. From the time Leia meets the first Ewok until the time Luke goes wandering off...only about 17 minutes of time elapses. Not an actual lot.

The Ewoks are kind of "cutesy" but also kind of grim. I mean their original intention is to eat the Rebels, they don't play nice right away.

As for Wookies, I agree with GL, you just can't have Wookies. The whole point is that the Rebels are the underdogs. If they ally with a planet full of Wookies, you would wonder a) how could they lose and b) Why would the Empire let Wookies roam around as a threat?

I like how the Ewoks thwart the overconfident Empire by using primitive, innovative tricks. There is actually some thought here and a powerful message.

And the final sequence is really one of the best 30 minutes in all of Star Wars - the Simultaneous space battle - land battle - Lightsaber duel is non stop action. Plus, on top of that the buildup is there to care about all of the characters involved. Darth Vader's Battle with Luke and his redemption. Once again another great moment that was a thrilling temporary end to the Saga.

So yeah ROTJ is a great movie, it's score on IMDB and box office success reflects there were a lot of satisfied fans.

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[–] aillas55 7 years ago

It's still Star Wars and there is obviously much to enjoy - the space battle still makes me giddy in parts and none of the subsequent films have quite equalled it even with the CGI. The Death Star scenes are good but I still don't get the idea that simply being angry will make Luke turn to the Dark Side.

But even as a kid I would find myself cringing at some of the dialogue - something I did not do with Eps 4 & 5.

The Ewoks are overly cute perhaps, but I don't get why GL was so reluctant to see an Ewok die. I never understood where the Ewoks had the time to build all those ingenious traps either.

Never liked the Sarlac pit fight. Poorly executed with too many bad guys just standing around not taking obvious shots and with Boba's death especially lame.

The humour. What happened George? The first two films were funny, but for some reason the verbal banter seems to have been largely lost in this one.

Also noticed that this was the first Star Wars movie where the bad guys feel the need to give cartoony evil laughs.

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[–] VivaLaVader 7 years ago

I honestly think ROTJ would be one of my favourite episodes if not for the Ewoks, in spite of some of the dialogue. But cutesy little teddy bears helping to bring down the Empire? It was ridiculous, especially after Empire Strikes Back. Don't get me wrong, I don't despise the movie, but its not in my top 5.

"George, you can type this *beep* but you can't say it."

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[–] adamgraydon 7 years ago

It's still Star Wars and there is obviously much to enjoy - the space battle still makes me giddy in parts and none of the subsequent films have quite equalled it even with the CGI. The Death Star scenes are good but I still don't get the idea that simply being angry will make Luke turn to the Dark Side.

I didn't see how Palpatine could convince Anakin the only way to save Padme would be to become evil and wipe out a bunch of kids. It's just Star Wars. No overly complicated motivations for anyone throughout.

But even as a kid I would find myself cringing at some of the dialogue - something I did not do with Eps 4 & 5.

Example?

The Ewoks are overly cute perhaps, but I don't get why GL was so reluctant to see an Ewok die. I never understood where the Ewoks had the time to build all those ingenious traps either.

There were many Ewoks that died, including one particularly touching close up scene. Several ewoks got shot by laser fire from the AT-ST's. As far as the traps..I believe it was explained in one of the star wars legends books that there were several large animals that lived on Endor that threatened the Ewoks. The traps were there to hunt them and just used to thwart the empire. Or perhaps the Ewoks were already offended by the Empire and there were some behind the scenes altercations between them, so they got ready for battle.

Never liked the Sarlac pit fight. Poorly executed with too many bad guys just standing around not taking obvious shots and with Boba's death especially lame.

Well they never expected any kind of revolt and had never encountered a jedi before (except Fett) plus the force has some ability to cloud the actions of others. I agree that Fett died a little too easily, but at least it was Han Solo that got him.

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[–] aillas55 7 years ago

The worst dialogue in ROTJ was the emotional/romantic scenes - Han saying he won't get in the way, Han & Leia arguing on Endor, Luke's "I'm with you too" etc. The dialogue itself isn't always that bad, it's just the delivery seems stilted and awkward, very much like we saw in the prequels.

I'm aware we some that sad little Ewok die, but that is obviously nothing compared to the amount of rebel soldiers we see get killed.

I tend to think it was less about the Force clouding people's judgement and more to do with primitive special effects and a quick production schedule.

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[–] adamgraydon 7 years ago

It's still Star Wars and there is obviously much to enjoy - the space battle still makes me giddy in parts and none of the subsequent films have quite equalled it even with the CGI. The Death Star scenes are good but I still don't get the idea that simply being angry will make Luke turn to the Dark Side.

I didn't see how Palpatine could convince Anakin the only way to save Padme would be to become evil and wipe out a bunch of kids. It's just Star Wars. No overly complicated motivations for anyone throughout.

But even as a kid I would find myself cringing at some of the dialogue - something I did not do with Eps 4 & 5.

Example?

The Ewoks are overly cute perhaps, but I don't get why GL was so reluctant to see an Ewok die. I never understood where the Ewoks had the time to build all those ingenious traps either.

There were many Ewoks that died, including one particularly touching close up scene. Several ewoks got shot by laser fire from the AT-ST's. As far as the traps..I believe it was explained in one of the star wars legends books that there were several large animals that lived on Endor that threatened the Ewoks. The traps were there to hunt them and just used to thwart the empire. Or perhaps the Ewoks were already offended by the Empire and there were some behind the scenes altercations between them, so they got ready for battle.

Never liked the Sarlac pit fight. Poorly executed with too many bad guys just standing around not taking obvious shots and with Boba's death especially lame.

Well they never expected any kind of revolt and had never encountered a jedi before (except Fett) plus the force has some ability to cloud the actions of others. I agree that Fett died a little too easily, but at least it was Han Solo that got him.

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[–] Kruleworld 7 years ago

There were many Ewoks that died, including one particularly touching close up scene. Several ewoks got shot by laser fire from the AT-ST's.

we see one ewok die and maybe the one that crashes his glider.

otoh, we some 30 storm troopers die

this is the problem of the film. it should have been shown as a one-sided battle with an unlikely (and unexpected) victory for the rebels. You can't get that feeling when none of the protagonists die. Instead we see "precise" storm troopers who can't shoot anything, who die with one touch and loose because they're pathetic.

"He's dusted, busted and disgusted, but he's ok"

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[–] manchof1 7 years ago

Ewoks, poor dialogue and the characters are a bit blander than they were in the other films. The sense of humour was a bit off as well. I don't see how people were surprised/disappointed in Ep 1. The signs were all here in which direction GL was heading.

They forgot how trash ROTJ was by the time Ep. 1 came around.

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[–] aillas55 7 years ago

True. Perhaps because back in the 90's people might think of the trilogy as a 'whole' rather than focusing on each films strengths and faults that the weakness of Jedi was occasionally overlooked.

Also because we knew the characters and basic plot so well from the first two films, the familiarity and feeling of being with old friends meant that one does not at first notice the weak dialogue. When GL tried the same approach with new characters in Ep 1, the film was rightly criticised.

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[–] ryanstuartdavies-15302 7 years ago

It doesn't get that much hate. The film has a rating of 8.4, making it one of the best rated films on this website. The hate is coming from a vocal minority that think that shouting louder than everyone else will make their opinions more valid.

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