Felt a bit Sorry for Mary Carson - The Thorn Birds (1983) Discussion

[–] thbryn 14 years ago

She was very good in her last great part.

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[–] highpriestess32 14 years ago

Yes, although I have not seen her in very many roles! She was very convincing in this, yes.

I often drink to make people seem more interesting

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[–] amazon423 14 years ago

Barbara Stanwyck was a pro to the max. She never had a failed role that I can think of. In the book Mary Carson was so overweight she could no longer mount a horse whereas Barbara was on a horse rearing in the role.

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[–] highpriestess32 14 years ago

Yes, I've heard that in the novel she was a rather overweight and unattractive character. Had this been a modern story I can definitely see someone like the TV's version o Mary Carson (Barbara), to have perhaps had some subtle surgical procedures to restore some of her lost youth. Maybe at least she'd have put some colour in her hair since she was professing to feeling very youthful.

The white hair was very aging and one of the Carmichaels did remark at the party that night 'Someone should have told her she looks like death in white'

Maybe if they had cast an overweight elderly flump, it would not have had as much impact and would have been too repulsive to see someone so allegedly unkempt on screen trying to seduce Father Ralph, however subtly. It was slightly uncomfortable watching Stanwyck fondling him on the terrace and she was not an altogether unattractive woman and wore some nice clothes and had a good figure.

I often drink to make people seem more interesting

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[–] 14 years ago

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[–] highpriestess32 13 years ago

I never noticed the comment from the Cardinal!

But sadly, this is true and the Catholic Church has long been associated with corruption of many kinds.

As for Mary Carson eyeing-up Ralph's "credentials" (lol), one can't fail to notice that and this too was pretty shocking for the 80's and I was a young teen back then!!

His naked profile led us to acknowledge that he was there but for the grace of God in his altogether and Mary was consistently diverting her eyes to his nether regions. Sometimes his chest and then seemingly a little lower!

I still don't really comprehend why someone created "The Missing Years" since it adds nothing and if anything deviates from the continuity of the mini-series. Not only that but Chamberlain was a degree older by then, Meggie was played by Amanda Donohoe and basically the story didn't add up so I try to treat it as a seperate story but it doesn't really work either way for me.

For a start, Dane and Justine didn't recognise him in the original when he visited for Christmas but according to The Missing Years they saw him as children and Justine was not a baby when she last saw Ralph as is suggested in the original series.

I often drink to make people seem more interesting

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[–] amazon423 12 years ago

In the book the cardinal is reminiscing over how he tested Ralph. It was never verbalized but thought by the Cardinal. Also in the book Meggie was a redhead.

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[–] highpriestess32 12 years ago

OK, thank you

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[–] MsGemini 12 years ago

I know she was a manipulative old dragon for the most part but something in her tone saddened me shortly before her death when she confessed of her deep love for Father Ralph.

I didn't feel one ounce of sympathy for that hateful woman. I also don't think she loved Ralph. When you love someone you don't orchestrate situations that will cause them immense pain (i.e. leaving all her money to Ralph and making him chose whether to tear up the new will and ensure Meggie's rightful inheritance or file the new will and get his other heart's desire: a promotion.) She was obsessed with Ralph. Mary Carson was insanely rich and was used to having everything and anything she wanted. When she couldn't have Ralph she set out to make him and her niece suffer. Horrible, horrible woman...

You know I love you more when you're cold and heartless. -- Eric/Pam, TB

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[–] highpriestess32 12 years ago

Oh I don't deny that she acted hatefully, not at all. But that doesn't mean she didn't love him. Some people can hurt those they most love because they are the ones who evoke such deep passionate feelings in us (not necessarily romantic passion, just passion).

Lest we forget, she was a sourpuss and I think she had felt as though she had to be manipulative to survive back in her youth when she used her wiles to secure the richest man in the state. Being so manipulative is inevitably what made her so deeply cynical however. It's that old chestnut "you can't kid a kidder". I'm sure she thought the young Meggie was making a play for Ralph because she judged everybody by her own manipulative standards.

She never trusted another man enough to marry because she feared he would gain control over her estate so she was very set in her ways. She may well have lusted after Ralph but after her big revelation after the party it became clear she really loved him or at least she loved him in the only way she was capable of loving another but he of course said she didn't love him but that he was just a reminder of her lost youth.

Still, a very powerful scene.

Sitting on the fence gives you splinters on your arse

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[–] MsGemini 12 years ago

Oh I don't deny that she acted hatefully, not at all. But that doesn't mean she didn't love him. Some people can hurt those they most love because they are the ones who evoke such deep passionate feelings in us (not necessarily romantic passion, just passion).

I think Mary initially loved Ralph, but when he rejected her-- repeatedly-- that love turned into an obsessive need to see him suffer.

Lest we forget, she was a sourpuss and I think she had felt as though she had to be manipulative to survive back in her youth when she used her wiles to secure the richest man in the state. Being so manipulative is inevitably what made her so deeply cynical however. It's that old chestnut "you can't kid a kidder". I'm sure she thought the young Meggie was making a play for Ralph because she judged everybody by her own manipulative standards.

I definitely think Mary thought little Meggie was making a play for Ralph and she thought Ralph was receptive to her, yet rejected Mary. When she realized he loved Meggie as a child then as a young woman that fanned the flames of her love/hate feelings for Ralph. And even though she was cynical in areas of romantic love she could have at least have been good to her brother and his family. She is the one who asked him and his family to come to her ranch and she treats them like that. The wretched woman...

She never trusted another man enough to marry because she feared he would gain control over her estate so she was very set in her ways. She may well have lusted after Ralph but after her big revelation after the party it became clear she really loved him or at least she loved him in the only way she was capable of loving another but he of course said she didn't love him but that he was just a reminder of her lost youth.

I think Mary was incapable of really loving Ralph. Her 'love' was very twisted and sick. When he rejected her love and refused to go to bed with her she lost the control she holds so dear and over time that love turned into an obsession need to see him and Meggie suffer... for the rest of their lives...

Still, a very powerful scene.

Yes, it is.

You know I love you more when you're cold and heartless. -- Eric/Pam, TB

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[–] highpriestess32 12 years ago

You make some valid observations.

I've never read the novel but I got the impression from the mini-series that Mary had no idea of Meggie's existence and was practically mortified when Ralph waked in carrying this beautiful, olive-skinned little girl with her cute plaits and puppy dog brown eyes.

I thought Stanwyck played this scene very well (as she did in all of them). It was all in the expression. First a look of restrained surprise and later a look of utter contempt as though she was already fast-forwarding several years and sensing a possible attraction between Ralph and the girl. She was indeed very twisted and was evidently jealous of this young child because of (as you say), Ralph's natural affection for her.

She hated the fact that age had crept up on her and she had lost her youth and her looks. Meggie was a reminder of everything she had lost. I only had that one moment of sympathy when she lost control and declared of her misery at being a young woman trapped in an old body but I don't condone her revenge at all. It was just that brief insight that seemed to shed light on why she was so bitter but she could have just accepted her fate and bowed out gracefully.

Sitting on the fence gives you splinters on your arse

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[–] MsGemini 12 years ago

You make some valid observations.

Thanks.

I've never read the novel but I got the impression from the mini-series that Mary had no idea of Meggie's existence and was practically mortified when Ralph waked in carrying this beautiful, olive-skinned little girl with her cute plaits and puppy dog brown eyes.

I read the novel (and loved it, btw.) and Mary was aware of all the Clearys. She thought that by bringing them to Drogheda and threatening Ralph with disinheritance he would fall in line (and into her bed!). Mary was upset that Ralph and Meggie bonded, though. She thought of the Clearys as insignificant and she didn't anticipate 'competing' with a beautiful child for Ralph. Mary thought with all her money she would eventually wear him down. She had no idea she would 'lose' him to a poor little girl.

I thought Stanwyck played this scene very well (as she did in all of them). It was all in the expression. First a look of restrained surprise and later a look of utter contempt as though she was already fast-forwarding several years and sensing a possible attraction between Ralph and the girl. She was indeed very twisted and was evidently jealous of this young child because of (as you say), Ralph's natural affection for her.

Exactly! She plotted many years in advance in the book as well. If she couldn't have him then she would make him and the object of his affection suffer.

She hated the fact that age had crept up on her and she had lost her youth and her looks. Meggie was a reminder of everything she had lost. I only had that one moment of sympathy when she lost control and declared of her misery at being a young woman trapped in an old body but I don't condone her revenge at all. It was just that brief insight that seemed to shed light on why....

Yes, and in the book she was not only jealous of Meggie's youth, but of Meggie's great beauty as well. The fact that Meggie only got more and more beautiful was very upsetting to Mary. So, she decided to use that beauty as weapon. That's why Mary bought Meggie (and all the rest of the Clearys) those beautiful clothes to wear to her birthday party. She wanted to torture Ralph with Meggie's beauty; tease him with the thing he wanted, but could never have. As I said before... miserable, wretched woman...

...she was so bitter but she could have just accepted her fate and bowed out gracefully.

That's the thing: Mary couldn't understand that there was no competition. Ralph didn't want her. It was all in her sick, twisted mind!

You know I love you more when you're cold and heartless. -- Eric/Pam, TB

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[–] highpriestess32 12 years ago

The book sounds as though it differs too from the series - but on different details. That's what I have gathered from various comments on this board. Like Mary Carson being overweight in the novel.

It's always good to read comments from those that have read the book however so thaks for your thoughts. Always nice to discuss this fantastic series. I doubt there will ever be another quite like it. They broke the mould when making this for sure!

Sitting on the fence gives you splinters on your arse

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[–] MsGemini 12 years ago

The book sounds as though it differs too from the series - but on different details. That's what I have gathered from various comments on this board. Like Mary Carson being overweight in the novel.

Yeah, the book is a bit different than the miniseries (i.e. Frank's fate, Mary's appearance, etc.). I enjoyed the book more, but the miniseries was spectacular.

It's always good to read comments from those that have read the book however so thaks for your thoughts. Always nice to discuss this fantastic series.

Thanks for your interesting and thought-provoking opinions. This is, by far, my favorite miniseries.

I doubt there will ever be another quite like it. They broke the mould when making this for sure!

You know I love you more when you're cold and heartless. -- Eric/Pam, TB

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[–] phillindholm 12 years ago

I watched the show because Barbara Stanwyck was in it (have been a fan since ''The Big Valley''). I wasn't disappointed. And her last scene with Chamberlain was heartbreaking. WHAT an actress!.

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[–] highpriestess32 12 years ago

Totally agree, she showed her real and profound hurt in being trapped in an old body. I thought it was a bit cruel of Ralph to say she wasn't in love but that he was just a reminder of her lost youth.

"When the ship docks I'm getting off with you". Erm, you just did in the cargo hold.

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[–] amazon423 12 years ago

None of Colleen McCullough's books came up to this one. The closest one would be "Tim". I tried to read her series on Rome but gave up on the first one.

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[–] highpriestess32 12 years ago

I have Tim on DVD. Always loved that film even though these days I've gone right off Mel Gibson, blithering idiot that he's become!

Voted Top Dog on the Corrie board

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[–] amazon423 12 years ago

He was so gorgeous in "Tim." I think he was around 23 years old then. Piper was in that one also where she had re-located to Australia from the USA. No explanation why she, from the USA, had the part of Ann in "Thornbirds." I think the only thing I have of Mel Gibson is "Tim" also.

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[–] highpriestess32 12 years ago

Hello again,

Yes, I first saw "Tim" many years ago with Piper Laurie and immediately I fell in love with Mel Gibson. In fact I had a crush on him for many years up until the point of around "Forever Young". He was lovely in that too. But more recently I lost a lot of regard for him after he split up from his wife, Robin and started drinking, fooling around and making politically incorrect comments about certain things.

It's now marred my enjoyment of his earlier roles. I know they were just roles essentially but I always felt he was such a nice, family man.

I don't know why they cast Piper in The Thorn Birds either. In fact the casting was rather odd for the most part although one can overlook that because one gets past that and into the story (well I do!).

Voted Top Dog on the Corrie board

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[–] amazon423 12 years ago

I forgot about "Forever YOung." The lighthouse is near Point Arena in Mendocino County. I liked that one also and saw it when it was in the theatre. Lately he has gotten puffy, sloppy, and really not a nice person. I am with you on why Piper Laurie was cast in "Thornbirds" and also as to why Earl Holliman was cast as her husband Luddie. Both are USA.

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[–] highpriestess32 12 years ago

Yes the casting was rather odd for sure.

I also saw Forever Young in the cinema when it was released. Such a shame that he went and ruined my illusion of him!

Voted Top Dog on the Corrie board

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[–] amazon423 12 years ago

My husband and I saw Forever YOung in the theatre also. I was surprised when I recognized the lighthouse in it and said so out loud. It is only about 40 miles as the seagull flies from my hometown and we actually went fishing for abalone there one time. Actually you pry them off the rocks if they are legal size of 7 inches.

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[–] highpriestess32 12 years ago

Interesting honey. I hope you are well. Off topic but I have been in a relationship now for a few months to a man I adore. I am so happy after years of spurning male attention!

Much love to you and your hubby. Love can be so great when you share the simplest things!

These days you have to boil someone before you can sleep with them.

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[–] highpriestess32 12 years ago

It looks to be a most beautiful place!

These days you have to boil someone before you can sleep with them.

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[–] 12 years ago

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[–] SCY385-1 11 years ago

I have always thought that even if Mary had been as beautiful as Maggie or any other young woman Father Ralph would not have wanted her. Father Ralph had a hang-up about purity and such which might be why he loved Maggie so much. It just so happened that Mary was older, but she did not strike me as the nicest person to be around. I always thought that she was rather arrogant thinking the only reason Father Ralph didn't want her was because she was an older woman. She was as highpriestess32 put a manipulative old dragon. Can you imagine what she was like as a younger woman? Tempting for sure, but still a dragon. I have also always thought that her impossible love for Ralph was karma for some of the things she might have done in her youth. I have found that you get as good as you give in this world.

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[–] 11 years ago

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[–] SCY385-1 11 years ago

Could be. Mary seemed to like a challenge.

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[–] highpriestess32 11 years ago

Yes, I am a great believer in Karma.

Thanks you for your input. I haven't been on IMDb for a while so just catching up on my favourite boards!

I intend to show this series to my partner soon. His DVD collection is more Sci-fi and swashbuckling...yawn LOL! But ever since we got into Downton Abbey, he has expanded his mind and I am glad of it The Thorn Birds simply has to be next on the list and thereafter, Band of brothers. He tolerated Barbara Taylor-Bradford's "A Woman of Substance" so his eyes are suitably warmed lol!

"Has anyone seen my wife?" - Columbo

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[–] highpriestess32 11 years ago

Yes, I am a great believer in Karma.

Thanks you for your input. I haven't been on IMDb for a while so just catching up on my favourite boards!

I intend to show this series to my partner soon. His DVD collection is more Sci-fi and swashbuckling...yawn LOL! But ever since we got into Downton Abbey, he has expanded his mind and I am glad of it The Thorn Birds simply has to be next on the list and thereafter, Band of brothers. He tolerated Barbara Taylor-Bradford's "A Woman of Substance" so his eyes are suitably warmed lol!

"Has anyone seen my wife?" - Columbo

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[–] Jwest81_98 10 years ago

Mary Carson was always manipulative from the beginning...her attachment to her power was what kept her from remarrying 30 yrs after her husband died. She didn't want to lose control of that fortune.

Control, we should never get addicted to power or else we will let our lives slip away from us just as Mary Carson did...

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[–] tamarajessica 7 years ago

Mary Carson was more about control and less about love. I'm sure she thought she loved Ralph but in fact she was deflated because he would not allow her to control him... until he showed his weakness for Meggie.
The only reason why Meggie was able to get under Ralph's skin is because he met her when she was so young. He was not on his guard as she was no threat to his chastity then. Remember this was a gorgeous man with women wanting his attention and tells him scandalous stories in confession but he was always on his guard.
With Meggie, as she initially posed no threat he allowed himself to get close and as she grew and the bond between them was so strong that he fell in love.
Mary Carson was smart. She knew that Maggie would not remain a child forever and the closeness between Ralph and Maggie would become something more. Her aim was to show Ralph that she knew him best and from even beyond the grave she would control what happens in his life, especially as it pertains to his relationship with Meggie.

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