MovieChat Forums > Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan (1982) Discussion > Wrath of Khan or Empire Strikes Back?

Wrath of Khan or Empire Strikes Back?

posted 11 years ago by StarBored214
53 replies | jump to latest

First and foremost, I do not intend to ignite a clash between Trekkers and Star Wars fans-I am a fan of both, and although I’ll admit I enjoy Star Trek more, I think we are lucky to have both of these science fiction franchises.

So, both The Empire Strikes Back and Wrath of Khan are considered some of the best examples of sequels going one step above the original and even surpassing it. Though entirely different films, which do you prefer? I look forward to your (genuine) responses.

I don’t know who’s dumber: people who don’t understand Inception, or people who think they’re intelligent because they did.

[–] herbsuperb 11 years ago

STAR WARS FOREVER. ONLY A ****ING IDIOT WOULD LIKE STAR TREK BETTER!!!!!

Just kidding. Didn't mean it. Just a joke.

Honestly, I'd have to go with Empire. They are two of my favorite movies ever, and I can't praise either of them enough to do them justice. They both had excellent music (among my favorite scores by their respective composers) but Empire was just a little bit more memorable. Tracks like 'The Imperial March', 'Yoda's Theme', and 'Han Solo and the Princess' just stick with you. Horner's score for WOK was so dramatic and fit the tone of the film to perfection. Among the best work he's ever done, and he's done plenty of it.

Darth Vader and Khan will both go down as being among the greatest villains ever devised. But Darth Vader is damn near synonymous with evil and all things sinister. He gets the edge in villainy in my opinion.

As far as story, neither was terribly original. Nothing wrong with that, the brilliance is in the details. Empire contains themes and character archetypes that are familiar to anybody who knows how to read. WOK was lifted almost entirely from Melville's 'Moby Dick'. Both brilliantly executed, but the twist at the end of Empire (No.....I.. am your father) just puts it over the edge. Though I've seen it dozens if not hundreds of times, I still get a tingle up my spine when I see that scene. One of the best ever.

I'm sure you'll get a good variety or responses because both films and franchises have very dedicated fans, rightly so. I do hope the conversation does not devolve into a pissing match.

Excellent topic.

[–] Observer_2020 10 years ago

WOK drew inspiration from Moby Dick but it was hardly a copy of the book. That overlooks the importance of self sacrifice in the movie, and the original ST characters. Plus Kirk had a lot of awesome lines in the movie, none of which came from the book, as far as I know. ("I'm laughing at the superior intellect." "Khan, you bloodsucker!")

[–] PUTVphan 11 years ago

Wrath of Khan all the way!

Although I like Star Wars one must remember that it is at its base a childrens movie to get tykes to buy Ewok toys!!!

Wrath of Khan is for grown ups! Heck Khan is even reciting Classical Literature in this baby!

[–] LuccaBrasi 10 years ago

But there were no Ewoks in Empire strikes back.

Lucca Brasi sleeps with the fishes!!!

[–] jonathan-m-stone 9 years ago

True. I'd side with Empire over WoK (even though I love both).

[It's Luca, not Lucca.]

[–] Porpoise01 11 years ago

There's no comparison. And I don't mean that one is so much better, I literally mean that there's no comparison.

"After years of fighting with reality, I am pleased to say that I have finally won out over it."

[–] Porpoise01 11 years ago

[–] bjlevine 11 years ago

Hard to compare them. ESB successfully adds a lot of depth to what are terrific characters, though they were pretty much caracitures in Star Wars. It creates a great story arc.

TWOK takes the crew in a very different direction from TMP, and turns the movie franchise into what is much more space fantasy.

In the end, both are successful. But ESB is on a much larger level.

"Oh no...they sent the wrong Spock!"

[–] Porpoise01 10 years ago

At 10 million, TWOK was actually conceived as a relatively small picture. ESB was 100 million back when 40 million was considered ridiculous. With the success of Star Wars it was conceived as, and inevitably would be, an event.

But I don't consider big budgets a measure of quality-- not when eh can make three transformers movies at $200 million each, and bore the heck out of me every time.

The original Rocky, Terminator and Robocop were all low-budget movies.Neither Casablanca nor Citizen Kane carried large budgets, or we're foreseen as being important. Jaws ran twice the original budget at eight million, and two years later it was followed by a 10 million dollar movie whose success caught everyone by surprise -- Star Wars.

A big budget means you'll get a big movie. It by no means guarantes a satisfying movie. Trek's ongoing success -- and I even consider the lesser Trek movies better than a lot of event movies like Transformers -- their success was due to the emphasis on story and character as what drives the movie.

That's also the difference between the Original Star Wars trilogy and the prequels-- Lucas made the originals to tell a story. he made the prequels to develop effects technology.

"After years of fighting with reality, I am pleased to say that I have finally won out over it."

[–] manco82 10 years ago

Actually the budget for ESB was between $25 and $33 million.

[–] callahan-patrick 11 years ago

Gotta say Wrath of Khan, it has the dark storyline of Empire, but has more depth and complexity and I love Empire. I'm no more a Trekkie than a SW nerd, but Khan has the themes of overcoming age and in a way, death. Kirk has a renewed sense of self in both his life as a starship captain and a explorer. He reconnects with his lost love and son and becomes the captain he is known for (a terrific one). This is all after overcoming his natural instinct to rush into things without thinking (through Khan's actions, which were basically that of a younger Kirk). He also becomes more hopeful for the future this way. He makes new friends even if he lost one of his best. This and more have (for me at least) overcome Empire.

"I was cured alright."

[–] 11 years ago

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[–] Mick1994 11 years ago

As much as I love all the "Star Wars" movies (and I do mean all), I love the "Star Trek" franchise more, and "Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan" is probably my all time favourite movie.

[–] Madcap2112 11 years ago

Empire. Mainly because it's my favorite movie overall. Wrath is a definite high water mark for Space Opera, however.

Marriage is a wonderful institution, but who wants to live in an institution?
~Groucho Marx

[–] dan-willi84 11 years ago

The Wrath of Khan is The Empire Strikes Back of Star Trek.

[–] zachhasbro 11 years ago

Empire is way better

and funfact the name Ewok wasnt even given to those little basterds til after the movie was released, it wasnt mentioned in Jedi. they wanted the moon the new Death Star was orbiting to be full of Wookies but it was too expensive

[–] dan-willi84 11 years ago

The Dark Knight wouldn't had been born, if it wasn't for Empire Strikes Back and Wrath of Khan.