All they had to do was beam the Genesis device out into space, and not rematerialize it.
If they wanted Spock to get killed, they should have written a scenario in which no other option existed, instead of writing an easily solvable scenario and pretending there is no easy solution.
I don't dance, tell jokes or wear my pants too tight, but I do know about a thousand songs.
Obviously the transporters didn't work. They can't even SEE in front of themselves.
Quien es mas Sherlock?
Hombre de Hierro
O
Doctor Extraño
Obviously the transporters didn't work.No, it was obvious that they did work, which is why Kirk wanted to beam over there:
It's very simple: if the transporters work and they could beam the device out of range, the movie would be over. No climax
So yeah, Kirk could have contacted Scotty, and Scotty could have said "transporters are offline, captain"
English isn't my 1st language. I'm sorry for any mistakes in grammar, spelling...
If Kirk should contact Scotty, he'd get no answer, since Scotty was temporarily out of it.
Just because Kirk expected to beam down doesn't necessarily mean it was presently practical. Kirk expected warp speed immediately, and it did not happen immediately.
I could theorize several factors. As Kojiro_Vance states, the transporter was probably offline. Scotty had bypassed the power to make the Enterprise efficient for movement and combat. This meant a good part of the ship was on low power save for necessary life support (Spock points this out to Kirk, being forced to use ladders instead of lifts). The transporter, after being used to get Kirk back, was temporarily sacrificed. Scotty could have put the system back on line, but he was out of it, and his crew of trainees probably lacked the expertise (or calm perseverance in extreme conditions, as seen earlier).
There is also the matter of the Enterprise being able to make a teleportation beam-scan to get the device. The coordinates would have to be very precise to catch the entire device, else grabbing part of it could blow up on their faces. The Genesis Wave, plus the Nebula's sensor-static, probably made it impossible to detect the device's whereabouts.
Just because Kirk expected to beam down doesn't necessarily mean it was presently practical.Then that should have been indicated onscreen, if that's what the writers had in mind. In reality, the most likely case is that they didn't think of this extremely simple solution to the problem.
Kirk expected warp speed immediately, and it did not happen immediately.There you go; an example of proper writing. We can assume that Kirk, as the Captain, knows what's going on in his ship unless indicated otherwise. He thought the transporters were working, and nothing indicated otherwise.
There is also the matter of the Enterprise being able to make a teleportation beam-scan to get the device. The coordinates would have to be very precise to catch the entire device, else grabbing part of it could blow up on their faces. The Genesis Wave, plus the Nebula's sensor-static, probably made it impossible to detect the device's whereabouts.For one thing, they detected the Genesis wave in the first place, and even displayed its real-time wave form on an oscilloscope-type device. They should be able to pinpoint the source of the wave form, like they can with any other signal they are able to clearly detect with their instruments. For another thing, they knew it had been beamed up to Khan's pirated ship to begin with, so it was a pretty safe bet that it was still on the transporter pad (which it was). For yet another thing, they could have simply beamed a huge chunk of the ship and its contents away, so pinpoint accuracy isn't required. And lastly, they could have just beamed over to confirm its location, and then beam it out of there. They should have already suspected it was still in the transporter room because that was its last known location, so that would have been the obvious place to start looking.
The reason doesn't matter. Whether the transporter works at all, whether they can transport in the nebula(highly unlikely, given what else doesn't work), or whether they can't transport it(regardless of whether it can locked or if it actively makes transporter beams unable to function on it).
You can't stop it. It's the Kobayashi Maru. Face it.
Quien es mas Sherlock?
Hombre de Hierro
O
Doctor Extraño
You can't stop it. It's the Kobayashi Maru. Face it.Except, the writing doesn't reflect that, thus, bad writing, as I said in the first place. The writing has the characters ignoring an easy solution to the problem, which makes them look foolish.
Except, the writing doesn't reflect that, thus, bad writingNo, the writing explains it. "You can't". Sure, waste those 3 minutes explaining to the audience why it's impossible. It's not bad writing; it's you being intentionally obtuse, which makes YOU look foolish, moron.
No, the writing explains it.This is a non sequitur, and as such, consider it dismissed out of hand. I said that the writing doesn't reflect the idea that "You can't stop it." Also, in addition to your assertion being a non sequitur, it is also false, i.e., there is no "explanation" given in that scene for why Kirk can't beam over there to stop it ("you can't" is not an explanation).
"You can't".David said that. His expertise is in the area of the Genesis device. He's not a crewmember of the Enterprise nor any other ship. His assertion refers to the lack of an abort function on the Genesis device; it has nothing at all to do with beaming the Genesis into nothingness, which the writers clearly didn't even think of.
Sure, waste those 3 minutes explaining to the audience why it's impossible.All they needed to do was establish that the transporter wasn't working. It takes 3 minutes to say, "The transporter is down, Captain,"? LOL @ that, and LOL @ you too, you know, while I'm at it.
It's not bad writingI've already established otherwise, and as such, your mere gainsaying is dismissed out of hand.
it's you being intentionally obtuse, which makes YOU look foolish, moron.Comical irony from someone who has already established himself as an idiot, several times, in this thread. You first established yourself as an idiot when you said:
I think Spock's sacrifice could have been better set up. Other than that, no complaints about it.
Shadows of the night
Just like Humphrey Fish says: you can't stop it.
Maybe in the real world (if star trek where real :) ), they would have tried to disable Genesis , or beam it away, or whatever.
Maybe such a scene (Kirk contacting the transporterroom) WAS shot, but it got taken out in the editing room?
From a filmmaking/storytelling point of view it's this: there is no time or point to put in scenes like that. The Spock sacrifice should be about Spock, not about the transporter-room technicians, people talking on communicators, ...
Kirk want's to beam over there to stop it. David just says "you can't". That's enough dialogue to tell the audience that the ship needs warp speed, or they'll all be dead. That line sends spock to engineering and starts the movie's climax. No win scenario. Kobayashi Maru.
Kirk want's to beam over there to stop it. David just says "you can't". That's enough dialogue to tell the audience that the ship needs warp speed, or they'll all be dead.No, it isn't. That's enough dialog to tell the audience that the Genesis device doesn't have an "off" button.
From a filmmaking/storytelling point of view it's this: there is no time or point to put in scenes like that. The Spock sacrifice should be about Spock, not about the transporter-room technicians, people talking on communicators, ...Absurd. This bit of bad writing is easily fixed by having someone like Spock (instead of Marcus) reply to Kirk:
I understand what you are trying to say. You wan't an explanation about why they can't beam over there, so that they really need warp speed. No other options. And you are right, they could have easily fixed it by adding or changing some of the lines.
But i try to see it from the directors perspective.
What I'm trying to say is this:
- David: blablabla it's the Genesis wave blablabla
- Kirk: we'll beam over and stop it.
- David: You can't
blablabla
When Kirk and David are talking, the camera is panning down. When the camera is panning down, Kirk talks to Scotty: Warp speed blablabla. The camera then reveals Spocks face and we can see him thinking. Suddenly he stands up and disappears from the bridge. His face is that of a man who is going to sacrifice himself. If i'm not mistaken, there is not a single edit in that scene and its a continuous shot.
My guess it that Nicholas Meyer wanted to use visuals rather than dialogue.
I'm sorry if i don't make 100% sense, my English is not super :)
Beaming something into space with the item scattered would have saved them lots of trouble through the years, not just in the movie but every series of the Trek universe. Of course there would be less danger then, and what's the fun of that?
Guess what! I've got a fever, and the only prescription is MORE COWBELL! -Bruce Dickinson-
Beaming something into space with the item scattered would have saved them lots of trouble through the years, not just in the movie but every series of the Trek universe. Of course there would be less danger then, and what's the fun of that?They did it to "Jack the Ripper" in "Wolf in the Fold". As for your assertion, that's the writer's problem. As a writer, if you don't want to write around a very powerful problem-solving device, then don't introduce the problem-solving device into your fictional universe in the first place. There are no excuses for bad writing; saying, "Well, if they chose that (insert easy solution), then there wouldn't be much of a story," doesn't cut it.
I'm a life-long Trekker since it's original run. They were too far into the nebula for the transporters to beam it completely clear. Maximum transporter range is 40,000 kilometers and the nebula was much larger than that. It would still have destroyed everything in the nebula.
That object you're tracking isn't a large asteroid. It's a very large spacecraft.
They were too far into the nebula for the transporters to beam it completely clear.They don't have to "beam it clear", they only have to beam it and not rematerialize it (i.e., annihilate it, full stop), which effective removes it from existence altogether.
Probably for the same reason that they don't beam photon torpedoes onto enemy bridges once the shields are down or beam critical warp cores out into space once they are unable to physically eject it.
The Genesis device was a prototype that had never been set off on this scale before. It was meant to be tested through controlled experimentation and utilized as a terraforming tool, not a weapon. Odds are the designers didn't consider testing how transporting the torpedo while the Genesis effect was building up when designing it.
So would Kirk or Marcus know with 100% certainty that the Genesis effect already starting in the device would dissipate with the transporter beam? From the looks of the simulation shown on the Enterprise, the Genesis wave seems to work via some kind of chain reaction rather than through the initial detonation itself.
As mentioned before, the nebula played havoc on the sensors. Beaming over a team would have been a risk to the team and another team could hopefully be sent soon afterwards if the first team came in as a similar mess as seen in the first movie. Beaming the device out under similar conditions would put the whole ship at risk for an all or nothing result; a huge increase in danger.
And do you think Marcus could have kept the secret of protomatter being used in the device if Kirk had tried to go with your plan? He would have admitted using the protomatter, Kirk would have reconsidered due to protomatter being so unstable, and all that would have happened would be that the few seconds that the Enterprise had to get away before the device went off would have been wasted on a dead end plan.
It might not be convenient for the movie viewer to have to mull about such things, but suspension of disbelief requires that we assume that people who should have expert knowledge in their fields aren't going to bring up plans that obviously aren't going to work.
I always took it that even if they tried to beam it that it would make it detonate. After all it is an armed, highly unstable energy device. Heck, look what happened to the two people in the first movie. They were burned blobs of flesh.
shareI always took it that even if they tried to beam it that it would make it detonate. After all it is an armed, highly unstable energy device.How could it detonate when all of its matter is being annihilated (converted to pure energy) simultaneously? The instant that all of its matter starts disappearing (becoming energy), it would no longer have a single functional mechanism left, which means it can't do anything.
beam the Genesis device out into space
How far do you think they would have been able to beam it from the ship?Some of you folks don't read very well. Once again:
It is unclear whether or not the transporters are even working at this point in the film. During the firefight with the Reliant inside the nebula, the Enterprise is damaged to the point that radiation is leaking from the power core. Scotty calls Kirk and tells him that he has to take main power offline (otherwise everyone will be irradiated presumably). With main power offline, and the Enterprise only running on auxiliary power, it stands to reason that the transporters would also be offline at that point. This theory is bolstered by much dialogue earlier in the film.
SPOCK (on intercom): Admiral, this is Spock.
KIRK: Yes, Spock.
SPOCK (on intercom): Engine room reports auxiliary power restored. We can proceed at impulse power.
KIRK: Best speed to Regula I. Kirk out.
...later...
KIRK: Mister Scott, do we have enough power for the transporters?
SCOTT (on intercom): Barely, sir.
...later...
SPOCK: The situation is grave, Admiral. We won't have main power for six days. Auxiliary power has temporarily failed. Restoration may be possible in two days, ...by the book, Admiral
KIRK: Meaning you can't even beam us back?
SPOCK: Not at present.
...later...
SPOCK (gesturing towards turbolift): They're inoperative below C-deck.
KIRK: What is working around here?
SPOCK: Not much, Admiral. We have partial main power.
KIRK: That's it?
SPOCK: Best we could do in two hours.
...later...
KIRK (on intercom): Damage, Mister Scott?
SCOTT: Admiral, I've got to take the mains off the line. The radiation...
To me, there is a strong enough case that the Enterprise's transporters were off line at the time Genesis was on a built up to detonation. Scotty says that even on Auxiliary power, they only just barely have enough power to use transporters. Hell the turbo lifts don't even function with partial main power! If the turbo lifts weren't functioning, why should we assume that the transporter was? The fact that they don't have full power is precisely why they didn't have warp drive, and were proceeding very slowly on impulse power when trying to escape from the Genesis detonation. That Kirk's immediate, knee jerk response was to recommend the transporter doesn't necessarily imply that it was a viable option. Indeed, David responds "you can't" when Kirk suggests it. Was he reminding Kirk that main power was off line? Was he trying to say that Genesis can't be turned off once it's been activated? Do we know that the transporter could even get a lock on Genesis once it was powered up? Do we know that attempting to transport Genesis once it's been activated wouldn't result in an explosion? There is a lot of speculation there, and to suggest that transporting Genesis into space was an option depends on a lot of unknown variables. I'd be more willing to say that IF that was an option, then David would have recommended that. And perhaps the biggest factor of all (with respect to the idea of beaming it into space), that wouldn't work for the simply fact that they would still be in range of the detonation. In any case, there is ultimately no reason to believe that the transporters were an opinion, MOSTLY due to main power being off line.
Atheists accuse me of being a brainwashed Christian; fundies accuse me of being an atheist!
That Kirk's immediate, knee jerk response was to recommend the transporter doesn't necessarily imply that it was a viable option.Yes, it does. Kirk, being the captain of the ship, can be expected to know its status unless indicated otherwise. An example of "indicated otherwise" would have been for someone in a position to know better to reply to Kirk with, "The transporters are down, Sir." That didn't happen.
Indeed, David responds "you can't" when Kirk suggests it.He's not in a position to know anything about the workings of the Enterprise. Not only is he not a crew member of the Enterprise, he's not a crew member of any star ship. His area of expertise is the Genesis project, and it follows that his reply meant that the Genesis device had no abort function, which is irrelevant, because the device could have simply been annihilated with the transporter.
Do we know that the transporter could even get a lock on Genesis once it was powered up?Of course they could; they detected the signal from it, and even had it displaying as a waveform on their monitor. If they can detect the signal, they know its point of origin. And even if they couldn't lock onto it, they know its last known location (because they know it was beamed to the Reliant, which makes the Reliant's transporter pads its last known location).
Do we know that attempting to transport Genesis once it's been activated wouldn't result in an explosion?Yes, we do. A device can't explode when it's no longer a device, and being converted to energy (which is what happens when beaming) inherently makes it no longer a device.
There is a lot of speculation there, and to suggest that transporting Genesis into space was an option depends on a lot of unknown variables.False, see above.
I'd be more willing to say that IF that was an option, then David would have recommended that.Why would David know anything about it? He's not Scotty, Spock, or Captain Kirk; he's not even a member of the crew.
And perhaps the biggest factor of all (with respect to the idea of beaming it into space), that wouldn't work for the simply fact that they would still be in range of the detonation.^^^ Yet another person who doesn't read so well. Again:
"All they had to do was beam the Genesis device out into space, and not rematerialize it."Yes, but do we even know if that is even possible? I have never seen them do that in any of the episodes or movies. Perhaps once you dematerialize an object you still essentially have it and something must be done with it. In any case, it would make a great garbage disposal!
Kirk, being the captain of the ship, can be expected to know its status unless indicated otherwiseIt WAS otherwise indicated. For one thing Kirk wasn't the captain of the ship, Spock was. Kirk assumed command a few hours before. It was also previously established that he was rusty, and out of practice. Saavik had to remind him numerous times of the regulations. It was because of his rustiness that the Enterprise was damaged in the first place. So no, we cannot assume that Kirk new the status of the transporters, especially at that time when he couldn't even get a status of what was happening in engineering. Scotty did not answer Kirk's hail. The last thing we know about the enterprise is that main power was offline. That means no transporters!
Do we know that the transporter could even get a lock on Genesis once it was powered up?Detecting a signal from something isn't the same thing as being able to lock on to it. On thing that is continually established in the ST generation is that certain types of radiation can block the transporters from getting a lock on something. Whether it be an ion storm, or some type of radioactive rock, or a vessels own shields, or transport inhibitors, the transporters can't lock onto things when radiation inhibits the system (whether they can detect the object or not). And the Genesis device is clearly radiating some type of energy when Khan activates it. It begins to glow and emit steam. Plus Spock says he detects a new type of radiation that he's never seen before. So we don't know that the enterprise transporters could lock onto Genesis at that moment. Certainly David would know whether or not it could be transported in such a state even if he isn't a Starfleet officer!
Of course they could; they detected the signal from it, and even had it displaying as a waveform on their monitor