Clubber could possible beat Apollo in his prime. - Rocky III (1982) Discussion

[–] llll2000 8 years ago

I think we are led to believe that Creed was a better fighter then Lang in his prime.

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Clubber Lang was a joke. He threw nothing but haymakers. Someone with a fighting style like that wouldn't even be able to beat Spider Rico, nor anyone else who knew how to box. Haymakers are the easier type of punch to avoid, which is why people who know how to box reserve them for moments of opportunity. There's no such thing as a successful boxer in real life who only threw haymakers, because such a boxer's number of losses would be identical to his number of fights.

Stallone made his Rocky character, as well as the entire boxing world of the Rocky universe, look ridiculous by having someone with such an absurd fighting style win the title. He did things right with the Apollo Creed character, who was modeled after Cassius Clay. All of the other boxers in the Rocky franchise were more believable than Lang, except maybe for Tommy Gunn. If I remember right (been quite a while since I've seen Rocky V), he only threw haymakers too, despite being played by a real-life boxer who should have told Stallone that was asinine.

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[–] ThrillerTalk (1118) 4 years ago

Something tells me the real life boxer would have been fired and replaced by someone else if he tried to tell Sly and whoever else what's what about the in's and outs of that squared circle.

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[–] CaldoTheKid (306) 3 years ago

I believe in one of the newspaper clipping in Rocky V they compare Gunn to Lang.

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[–] howgamer (3644) 6 years ago

Probably not. Apollo had a lot more speed than Rocky and would have worn Lang down by the mid-rounds. It would be similar to what Rocky did in the second fight v Lang except Apollo would dodge the majority of the shots rather than take a huge beating, but that was Rocky thing.

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[–] Branson26 (397) 5 years ago

Apollo had a lot more speed than Rocky? No. Rocky eclipsed Apollo in speed once he got the 'eye of the tiger.' Rocky was able to outrun Apollo and not only avoid his punches while cornered but but able to turn the table and corner Apollo.

Apollo wouldn't have lasted to the mid rounds. Rocky used Apollo style to near perfection but Clubber was able to overwhelm and land punches. The same way Rocky did to a prime Apollo in Rocky 2. Apollo doesn't have the ability to withstand punches like Rocky.

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[–] howgamer (3644) 5 years ago

The OP's question was in reference to a prime Apollo v Clubber in which a prime Apollo was a faster and superior fighter than Rocky I and II. Sure Rocky could outrun Apollo by Rocky III, but at that point Apollo was retired for two years. Remember Rocky only beat Apollo in Superfight II because Apollo let his pride get the better of him. If Apollo would have stayed away from Rocky in the 15th round he would have won the fight, but he wanted to knock Rocky out; he was the superior fighter.

I agree that Apollo couldn't take as much punishment as Rocky. I mean Rocky's main qualities were that he had greater heart and stamina than anyone else. I imagine a prime Apollo would have been able to dodge most of Clubber's haymakers and use his length to his advantage. Apollo would not have had to get in close like Rocky had to and he could have worn Clubber down with his jab.

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[–] Branson26 (397) 5 years ago

Rocky was able to catch and land heavy punches on a prime Apollo so would Clubber. Sure, Apollo would've won the fight if he didn't let his pride get in the way but that was against a Balboa who spent most of time worrying about his wife and hardly trained for the fight. If Rocky had a full cycle of training Apollo is certainly KO'd easier and earlier.

Clubber climbed the heavyweight ranks and dominated all types of fighters. He punched harder than Rocky and was very durable. Look at the shots he took from Rocky. Rocky leveled Apollo with a single punch in their first fight.
I can't see how Apollo could win against Lang.

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[–] howgamer (3644) 5 years ago

Sorry I just disagree. Just like in Rocky v Clubber II, Rocky was easily able to dodge Clubber's all out punches; a prime Apollo would have been able to do the same and most likely KO'd Clubber in the third round. I think Apollo had as much punching power as Rocky. Additionally Apollo was no bum, as he was able to endure severe punishment in both fights against Rocky crediting his heart and durability. Sure he couldn't have endured as many of Clubber's punches as Rocky could, but Clubber doesn't land many of those punches due to his speed. I disagree that Clubber has really much durability as Rocky was able to KO him in an early round.

Apollo is also regarded as possibly the greatest boxer of all time in the Rocky universe as his only professional defeat is against Rocky. The only reason Rocky even got a shot is because he cleaned out any and all challengers for years. Clubber Lang was a one and done champion. Never heard from again after he lost the title on his first defense of it.

Apollo in his state in Rocky III may have lost. A prime Apollo would have knocked Lang's block off with probably a little difficulty, but a sure win imo. I guess we'll just have agree to disagree cause I can't see any way that Clubber could beat a prime Apollo.

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[–] Branson26 (397) 5 years ago

Like I said if Rocky was able to overwhelm a prime Creed and land big punches then so could the bigger, stronger Lang. Rocky used Creed's style to perfection until the 2nd rd when Lang went on the offensive then it failed miserably. Lang was too strong. Rocky barely survived getting KO'd and you know the punishment he can withstand. Creed almost got KO'd by one punch from Rocky. Lang had tremendous durability. Remember Lang was too tired to protect himself and Rocky pummeled him relentlessly. Rocky collapsed from pure exhaustion from landing punches to knock Lang out. Creed lacked the durability and strength so I see him getting beat by Lang. Remember Mickey feared a match against Lang because he knew how dangerous he was even compared to a prime Creed.

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[–] howgamer (3644) 5 years ago

Again, for the reasons stated above, I just can't see Creed losing to Lang imo. He does have a puncher's chance, but Creed in his prime is just too technical and fast.

Anyway, the main reason Mickey feared Lang is because Rocky became "civilized", meaning he had lost the eye of the tiger. Not that Mickey didn't think Lang was a tremendous fighter, as he characterized him as a "killer", but the main reason he didn't want Rocky to fight him is because Rocky was no longer hungry and had lost his edge.

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[–] TexasJack (12515) 5 years ago

I agree. I also think Creed allowed himself to be baited into fighting Rocky’s type of fight. Pride led him to trade with Rocky toe to toe when he should have used his superior speed and skill to outbox him.

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[–] Branson26 (397) 5 years ago

Creed who is a superior fighter yet he is 'baited' by a fighter who is less skilled? Nonsense.

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[–] TexasJack (12515) 5 years ago

It happens all the time in combat sports. Emotion temporarily overrides reason and a fighter who ordinarily knows better throws strategy out the window in favor of brawling with their opponent.

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[–] Branson26 (397) 5 years ago

Creed wasn't overcome by emotion. He was primed and ready and pounded Rocky. Remember after the first round Duke asked if the switching bothered him and said he should've had him, and he nearly did. Creed only made a mistake during the last round when he didn't avoid Rocky to win on points. Fact was, Creed wasn't able to KO a Rocky who was worried about his wife and barely trained.

An adequately trained Rocky or Lang will defeat Creed.

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[–] CaldoTheKid (306) 3 years ago

So if Apollo can be baited into fighting Rocky's type of fight and Rocky never said anything offensive then Clubber can easily bait Apollo into fighting his type of fight. All Clubber needs to do is say he'll shag Apollo's wife and then Apollo's fighting Clubber's type of fight and Clubber wins.

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[–] Branson26 (397) 5 years ago

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[–] Branson26 (397) 5 years ago

No, Rocky lost his drive far worse in part 2. Remember, Mickey called Rocky a bum and was ready give up on him. Mickey understood that Lang was even more dangerous than Creed. Even Apollo acknowledged that that he said: "You think I was tough? This chump will kill you!"

You can't see Creed losing to Lang? Sure, when you conviently ignore the logic in the movie that suggests otherwise. Go ahead argue against the points I mentioned but don't just state an opinion.

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[–] howgamer (3644) 5 years ago

You have ignored my points of how a prime Apollo was a much better fighter than Lang. It is also your opinion that Micky thought that Lang was more dangerous than Creed. No where in the film is that stated. Micky, during their discussion as to why he has been avoiding Lang, does state that the worst thing that can happen to a fighter, happened to Rocky, he got civilized. You keep stating that Rocky barely trained for the second fight with Apollo and that if he trained fully he would of won soundly, but that never happens so it is just your opinion and we'll never know. Although you do ignore that Rocky was fully trained for the first fight and Apollo was not, yet Apollo won.

The fact is they never fought so I guess we will never know. We do know that:

1. No one besides Rocky every went the distance with Apollo who was also 48-0 at the rematch.
2. In Rocky Balboa, a sportscaster refers to Apollo as the greater fighter of all time. Lang is never heard from again.
3. Rocky himself states that Apollo was the perfect fighter and that only time beat him.
4. Rocky taunts Lang during his rematch during what round 3? Rocky never does this with Creed during any of their bouts. It also took Rocky 15 rounds to beat Apollo, Lang is beat in 3.
5. Rocky was exhausted at the end of his match with Lang. During his matches with Apollo he is hospitalized after the fights.
6. Rocky beats Lang under the tutelage of Apollo
7. Rocky states in Creed that during their 3rd fight, at the end of Rocky 3, that Apollo won.
8. Rocky only halfway trained for his rematch against Apollo AND his rematch against Lang.

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[–] Branson26 (397) 5 years ago

Apollo was much better fighter? No way. Prime Apollo tried his best for 15 rounds to finish Balboa, he failed. Clubber KO'd Rocky in 2 rounds.

It is not my opinion. Both Mickey and Creed clearly stated the dangers of Lang. Creed said: You think I was tough? This chump will kill you! Mickey said: You can't win Rock. This guy will kill you to death inside of 3 rounds!

It's not my opinion that Rocky was grossly undertrained for the 2nd Creed fight it was shown and explicitly stated. Mickey was going to quit traning Rocky, called him a bum because Rocky was so unmotivated. Mickey said: You're nowhere near in shape. For a 45 minute fight, you gotta train hard for 45000 minutes, 45000! That's ten weeks, that's ten hours a day ya listenin'? and you ain't even trained one!

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[–] LordBAElish (2015) 5 years ago

Apollo was a better fighter than Lang, but Clubber had a punchers chance. Creed would use his boxing skills to wear down Clubber and evade his big blows. But if Clubber landed one, he could knock Creed out.

Clubber knocked out Rocky because Rocky wasn't training, he lost the eye of the tiger, and got soft. When he was fighting Apollo, he was at the top of his game.

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[–] Branson26 (397) 5 years ago

1. No one besides Rocky every went the distance with Apollo who was also 48-0 at the rematch. (Same could be said of Lang whose record was either 28-0 or 57-0 depending on the source.)
2. In Rocky Balboa, a sportscaster refers to Apollo as the greater fighter of all time. Lang is never heard from again.(Opinions are subjective. If the sportscaster had said Joe Frazier then what? Lang not being mention again is purely a continuity issue. All Lang had to do was work on his cardio and no doubt he would've reclaimed the title.)
3. Rocky himself states that Apollo was the perfect fighter and that only time beat him.(What else is he going to say to Creed's son? Besides Rocky was guilt ridden for not throwing the towel.)
4. Rocky taunts Lang during his rematch during what round 3? Rocky never does this with Creed during any of their bouts. It also took Rocky 15 rounds to beat Apollo, Lang is beat in 3.(Rocky taunted Creed in both fights. When an undertrained Rocky lasted 15 rounds against against a prime Creed but gets smashed by Lang in 2 rounds you overlook, why? The reason Rocky defeated Lang quicker is because Lang lacked the cardio and defense, he was gassed out in one round. Lang didn't know how to protect himself. Still, Rocky barely made out of the 2nd round.
5. Rocky was exhausted at the end of his match with Lang. During his matches with Apollo he is hospitalized after the fights.
(You seriously think Rocky didn't go to hospital after his 2nd fight with Lang?)
6. Rocky beats Lang under the tutelage of Apollo(True but Apollo's style failed badly in the 2nd round. Apollo is not going recover from that kind of pounding. Rocky barely won with his hard head, punching power and utilizing Creed's technique. )
7. Rocky states in Creed that during their 3rd fight, at the end of Rocky 3, that Apollo won. (Again what else is he going to say to Creed's son? The fight meant nothing but friendship and gratitude.)

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[–] QOK (1504) 5 years ago

Lang just wasn't polished enough. One dimensional brawler. Apollo easy win.

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[–] Vastuntitled (5460) 5 years ago

Great thread, very good discussion and answers....only thing I have to add: styles make fights...

Okay, one more thing— Creed appeared to avoid one guy: Joe Frazier.....Creed looked a bit rattled when smokin’ joe approached him in the ring before the first Balboa match...”you’re next, joe, you’re next...”, and, ”JOE FRAZIER!....GO HOME!....DO NOT STAY IN THE ARENA!” was Creed’s way of playing it off, but it seems like The Master of Disaster was a bit bothered by Frazier’s presence...though Smokin’ joe was spent by that time, why didn’t The King of Sting just take the fight then pop that spent bullet and blow him out?

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[–] hurricane (1908) 4 years ago

For me Clubber was a powerful fighter, but not a very good one.

A lot of opponents couldn't stand up to Clubber's strength. But Rocky demonstrated he could be outhought and outboxed.

Prime Apollo for the win.

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[–] mitzibishi (1617) 4 years ago

Apollo is the Greatest of all times.

It has been said.

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[–] seagal72 (1830) 3 years ago

Rocky was (in essence) Apollos Clubber (in the previous two movies)

Clubber (whilst a good fighter) is nothing more than a 'metaphor' for 'fear' in this movie. He signifies 'intimidation'.
He comes into this movie at a crossroads in Rockys life (after ten relatively easy fights, wherein complacency and vanity have replaced the initial grit and determination he once had)
Clubber Lang is the proverbial 'Boogeyman' in not just Rocky's life, but everyone around him. The old adage about 'Beat the bully by Hitting him back" is the basis for the entire movie. Stallone (realising he had to up the ante in this franchise) opted to use 'raw fear' as Rocky's opponent this time round (instead of 'introspection' and 'self-belief' from the previous two movies) so in essence (and I'm taking nothing away from the very impressive, iconic Mr T here) but Clubber could have been played by anyone here (thankfuly Stallone cast wisely though)

Once Rocky overcomes his fear of Clubbers punches (exemplified by his "Ain't so bad" retort) all bets are off.....Clubber is exposed as the wild puncher (with nothing else in the tank, unlike our hero) and is quickly bested. This only happens, once Rocky stops fearing both the opponent (and the idea of losing face and the financial rewards he's accumulated)

This is why 'Rocky III' is my favourite in the series....It's got a good pace, it crams three realistic, non-distance fights (plus a killer training montage) into 90 odd minutes and retains the integral 'Heart' of Rocky....before succumbing to the overblown 'music-video' overkill pomposity of (the still enjoyable) 'Rocky IV'

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