MovieChat Forums > Smiley's People (1982) Discussion > No victory (Beware - contains spoilers)

No victory (Beware - contains spoilers)


After watching Smiley's People I was struck by the thought that Smiley does not consider Karla's defection a victory. His demeanour throughout the walk-over implies both disappointment and disinterest, as he does not want to look at the event and is unexcited, unlike the jovial Toby ...

I think this is because Smiley doesn't like exactly how they brought about Karla defection. They've coerced him into coming over, rather than respond to his request for extraction. He would most probably maintain his Soviet allegiance whilst in England or at least belief in Soviet ideology, think of the flat refusal to defect Karla gives Smiley in Tinker, Tailor ... On this basis, the information he gave the British would not be able to be fully trusted.

I think Smiley would have been happier if he decided to come of his own volition rather than blackmail over his daughter, who is only a pawn in their game.

What do the rest of you think?

reply

You bring up an interesting point. Smiley was not at the West Berlin bridge to be in on the "kill" but rather as a sense of duty to his old adversary...he HAD to be there. There was not the slightest bit of satisfaction.

Frankly, leCarre has Smiley so world-worn and profoundly uneasy about the whole Cold War spygame by this time, one has to wonder what does make Smiley happy. Was it the devotion to "Moscow Rules" by the General that Smiley was able to retrace his steps and find the "treasure" in the crook of the oak tree on Hampsted Heath? Or was it how easily his old friend and protege Peter Guillam picked up the bridle on very short notice to assist him in Paris? Or maybe that "Senior Bernardi" still sells art of...how we say..."dubious" provenance?

Think of Richard Burton at the end of another leCarre spy thriller, "The Spy Who Came In From The Cold." That was an operation that Smiley had been in on as a younger man. That last look on Burton's face in the last scene...it's on Smiley's face 25 years later, also at a Berlin Wall crossing.

I think that Smiley had the biggest inner pleasure revealed time and again, the old adage proven true during this latest Cold War battle...the more things change, the more they stay the same.

It's a great story and I return to it every six months or so like an expensive bottle of cabernet...to savor every moment.

Best regards.

CmdrCody

reply

Yes, it was an empty victory. Like CmdrCody, I think Smiley was tired, as also witnessed by his actions regarding Ann (if I remember correctly).

You're right regarding the method of the victory. Le Carré has often had this discussion in his novels about the end justifying the means. Most Westerners think that their own intelligence agencies are lily-white, and the Soviets were monstrously evil in their methods. He has often tried to open the eyes of his readers to show them what espionage really entails: that the West is just as unsympathetic and sinister in their methods as the East, and both will sacrifice and do anything to win.

Smiley realizes what many Westerners don't: the Soviets are just normal people too, both stoop to the same tactics to achieve their goals, both are defending flawed/justifiable ideologies. Also, just like uncovering the mole in Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy didn't guarantee British victory, so too Karla's defection will only deal a temporary blow in the grander scheme of Cold War espionage. If the two sides can't resolve their political differences, it will never end for the spies, the real soldiers/casualties. Not much to celebrate about.

The only second chance you get is to make the same mistake twice. - David Mamet

reply

SlowRain: Good points. leCarre was always suspicious of idelogues and "super-patriots" in the spy game. In TTSP and SP, they turn out to be traitors and cowards.

CmdrCody

reply

Well observed. I suppose we should conclude that extremism on either side of the fence is dangerous ...

reply

Smiley's restrained reaction at Karla's defection is due to the fact that he knows that each man has finally succeeded in destroying the other. Smiley's professional life and personal life are in ruins. Now, Karla is finished, too. And it was all because Karla had a heart where his daughter was concerned. Karla's Achilles Heel was the same as Smiley's: his humanity.

The one moment of pleasure I remember Smiley expressing (silently) was during the meeting with Saul Enderby. There is a moment when Saul says something to Guillam that signals his willingness to go along with Smiley's plan. Smiley picks up on that, gives a faint smile of satisfaction, and lets the meeting continue.

reply

slatbrad: You have me thinking about the show a little differently now. I think you've hit on something here...the linkage between Smiley and Karla in personal defeat. Interesting observation.

That little moment during the big meeting with Enderby was great...deftly underplayed by Alec Guiness. Good post.

CmdrCody

reply

The linkage between them is certainly there. And there's a difference that contributed to Karla's downfall. The only reason Smiley was "the last man standing" was his unswerving moderation.

In an earlier episode Smiley said that Karla's own fanaticism would be his downfall. Karla certainly proved to be a fanatic in his fashion. If you worked for him you did things his way, or you went to an unmarked grave, the way Oleg Kirov did, or Irina and Boris in TTSS. If you were on the other side you still were not safe. If you had something Karla wanted, he was going to take it, and not be too fastidious about it. That's what happened to General Vladimir and Otto Leipzeig.

Smiley knew that Karla's tendency for violent action was causing him to make mistakes. His men should have killed the old woman in Paris, but they didn't. They did kill Otto Leipzeig, but couldn't stop Smiley from getting the material he needed to destroy Karla.

The main difference between them: both had patience, Smiley had more. And Karla's way of dealing with problems was excessive. Smiley wanted to crush Karla, but was willing to do it "with a minimum of force."

In the end, Karla destroyed himself.

Cheers

Slatbrad

reply

There is something in the final scenes which left me baffled. Just before they march Karla off, he casts a small silver flask of some sort down upon the street. Smiley contemplates it but does not attempt to examine it. What was that all about?

reply

That wasn't a flask, it was the lighter that Ann gave George, and which Karla "borrowed" from him in Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy. I think it signifies George's decision that he doesn't want Ann back after all of her infidelities.

The only second chance you get is to make the same mistake twice. - David Mamet

reply

Hey, thanks. Did BBC make a version of that one as well? Evidently Karla is making a point by carrying it with him and casting it upon the road.

reply

Yes, they made Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy before Smiley's People. They never made The Honourable Schoolboy which is a shame.

The only second chance you get is to make the same mistake twice. - David Mamet

reply

Wonderful and intelligent points. In my view, Smiley's cool reaction is based on his realization that he has become what he sought to destroy. In order to bring about Karla's downfall he has to resort to the same tactics that the Moscow thugs resort to. The look on his face showes that he understands he has become everything that he hated in order to win. He shamelessly used his friends and contacts (Smiley's People) without regard for their own demons and consequenses. He pulled out every resource and dirty trick that he could. He is no longer able to hold that superior attitude that he had with Ostrakovich where he comforts her for the way Moscow has held her daughter as hostage and lured her out with the false promise that the daughter will be released from the prison State. Smiley has, in essence, pulled the same ploy on Karla that they tried to pull on Ostrakovich. He has come to realize that, in this game, the west is not superior to Moscow.

reply

more like he has used Karla's own methods against him and feels a little ashamed...I.E. "That is not how a British gentleman would do it."

Karla new it too...that's why he dropped the lighter, to say "I used your love for Anne against you, now you have used my love for my daughter against me."
Smiley left the lighter laying there to say two things..."I do not love Anne anymore" and "I don't care"!
Smiley is COOL! If it had been me, I would have picked up the lighter, lit a french cig and blew the smoke in Karla's face!

reply

"I think Smiley would have been happier if he decided to come of his own volition rather than blackmail over his daughter, who is only a pawn in their game".

Well, I don't think Smiley thinks that this "fanatic" as he keeps calling him in this and Tinker, Tailor - would EVER come of his own volition - but I agree that he feels a deep sense of pain at using the Soviets' tactics to bring him over through this blackmail. For Smiley (and I think LeCarre) the use of such means is greatly troubling because it indicates to them that the moral difference between the systems is not as great as presumed.

This is one of the things I most dislike about LeCarre - whom I think a wonderful writer -- the difference between the systems was ENORMOUS. Whatever means were used in spycraft -- couldn't possibly diminish the chasm between the system pertaining in the West in the 20th century -- and that pertaining in the Soviet Union that resulted in deliberately starving 14 million to death in Ukraine and another 1 million in Kazakhstan, resulted in gulags throughout the century that killed further millions and simply ruined the lives of an estimated 18 million who passed through them, resulted in another 5 million killed in purges, a quick 100,000 rapes of German women in the invasion of Germany, resulted in the conquest of the Baltic Republics, resulted in the deportation to Siberia of huge numbers of people of different nationalities - Estonians and Chechnyans, Muslims of every nationality and Lithuanians, Romanians and Latvians, resulted in a half century long censorship, in an official bigotry against Jews, in the prevention of any true elections, in the proscription of denigration of religious worship, etc. To use blackmail once to stop a mass murderer from continuing his evil - hardly makes the two systems equivalent - it's just childish to think so.

reply

As regards moral equivocation, Le Carre is hardly the worst offender, but expecting Western writers and intellectuals to defend, let alone champion the West, its history and its institutions, seems terribly old fashioned.

One of IMDB's Guinness quotes wryly captures the spirit of the age:

We live in an age of apologies. Apologies, false or true, are expected from the descendants of empire builders, slave owners, persecutors of heretics and from men who, in our eyes, just got it all wrong. So, with the age of 85 coming up shortly, I want to make an apology. It appears I must apologize for being male, white and European.




reply

This is so well said. It's become fashionable to defecate on all the amazing achievements of Western civilization in order to retain your credibility with all the "intelligentsia" I'm sick and tired of the moral relativity being ascribed to the two sides of the Cold War. They were NOT morally relative! If East Germany had opened the border for one day, how many people would have gone East?! Yet somehow, I'm supposed to feel bad that the West did some not so nice things to insure that we won. Not gonna happen! The Soviet Union WAS the 'Evil Empire" millions upon millions killed, starved, disappeared, liquidated, etc. How in God's name can you draw a parallel between these two systems?! It's insanity at its best, brain damaged delirium at it's worst.

reply

Throughout the LeCarre novels there are moments when characters grant that nobody will "win" their dirty little war. The point is always to maintain balance between the contenders.

Within the confines of the Smiley trilogy, the Russians certainly win on points. For years the Haydon/Karla operation pulls the pants down of MI6. When the fiasco is eventually discovered, the British must further damage themselves by rolling up irrevocably contaminated assets.

The real life equivalent, of course, was Philby/Burgess/McClean/Blunt and that 5th bloke whose name always escapes me. The Russians irrevocably humiliating both sides of the Atlantic alliance. Discovering and stopping it did not unwrite the CI and espionage Russian triumphs. For whatever they were worth.

reply

"and that 5th bloke whose name always escapes me."

*********

Can you be thinking of George Blake or the Scotsman, John Cairncross who was another member of the Cambridge Apostles society. I've never been clear as to who was supposed to be the Fifth Man.

reply

Yes, Smiley seems resigned, not triumphant, but I feel it comes from a different source: that the great project of his career is finally finished -- so what is left for him to do? Kind of like when a writer finishes a long and difficult work -- the feeling might not be triumph, but a kind of empty feeling: now finally, the great project that has motivated me all these years, is done.

reply

I think it was all of those things:

- It's over
- He got him by being devious and cruel by using his daughter as a pawn - not by catching him in a spy ring or bad passport or raiding his office. Basically telling Karla we will tell all about your daughter...

- He realized he was as much as a "fanatic" as Karla was and he basically became a cruel, cold and calculating robot like figure!

reply

The look on the face of Karla and on the face of Smiley at the end was undecipherable. I tried to find some meaning in there expressions but I was at a loss. It seemed as the previous poster noted: "It's over." They both had the blank expressions of resignation and that must have truly been the case since Le Carre never wrote another novel about Smiley.

reply

Even though the cold war was far from over when he wrote the story, Le Carre' could see how it would end. He didn't have magic powers, he could simply see what was there. And what was there told him, "This ends well for nobody."

reply

I felt the same as most of the posters here, but I notice no one has brought up that sensitive topic: age.

Smiley is a nuanced, under-stated character thanks to the writing and the acting. It wasn't necessary to the story, but deliberately sprinkled through the ending are references to Smiley's age. His estranged wife mentions them being a retired old couple together. He is described as a rogue elephant, officers point out how methods have changed in the service, and he requires a nap twice.

Similarly, when Karla is walking across the bridge, his limp is noted. Someone notes he has probably had a stroke.

These characters are old adversaries, but they are also old. Smiley didn't shut down Karla when either were at their peak and the threat of new, younger English members of the circus is felt, to say nothing of the younger Soviet spies.

Le Carre was inviting us to be cynical; while Karla may have been a great spy conquest for someone, both he and Smiley had become pawns in rapidly changing cold-war game. How can Smiley feel closure? The circus changed upon his departure, the Soviets will surely recover too. It was too little, too late, like his wife's offer at reconciliation.

reply

I found it vapid. All that 'tradecraft' and expensive locations in the service of a bloke walking over a bridge. Smiley and Karla weren't half as tired as me when it finished. They should have made it half as long - it would have been twice as good.

Marlon, Claudia and Dimby the cats 1989-2005, 2007 and 2010.

reply

Giving A Perfect Spy a go today.

Marlon, Claudia and Dimby the cats 1989-2005, 2007 and 2010.

reply

'Yes, I suppose I have.'

Smiley didn't win. He knows it, and Karla knows it. That is what is unsaid as they look at each other.

Karla has what is most important to him - his daughter. With his knowledge of the Soviet system, his retirement in the west is secure. (I shall go into the West, and remain, Galadriel)

Smiley, on the other hand, is left with nothing. His relationship with Ann, the Circus, both are in ruins. Even his memories of his coworkers are left in ruins. Alleline, Bland and Esterhase, duped. Control, killed by Haydon as surely as if he had shot him. Haydon, Bloody Bill Haydon, the mole. Connie Sachs, forced out far too soon and destroyed by it. Jim Prideaux, damaged in both body and mind. General Vladimir... The list goes on and on.

All his life a waste, undone by Haydon, and Karla.

All symbolized by one dropped lighter. I wouldn't have wanted it, either.

reply

I just read the book (and will probably be watching the film soon as well), and yes, I felt the ending was paradoxically enough, both emotionally charged and detached at the same time.

Le Carre pretty much spells it out in the end that Smiley and Karla are both the same. Karla had Smiley's compassion and Smiley had Karla's ruthlessness. Smiley is sickened by what he had to do to secure this great triumph of his career, and therefore, the moment of 'victory' is tempered by this realisation for him. Unlike the other Circus agents, who were openly celebrating the capture of the 'big fish'...they simply consider themselves soldiers who have scored a major victory in the Cold War. Smiley too was once a soldier, but he's had decades to introspect and understand the psychological realities of espionage and Cold War dynamics in a way few others could.

reply

Smiley understood that he and Karla were counterparts, nemeses, reflections of each other. Smiley realizes that it was his action that twists the final knife, which, in effect, ends them both. He doesn’t feel victorious because he sees both Karla & himself as defeated.

“The look on his face showes that he understands he has become everything that he hated in order to win.”
While I agree, I also think Smiley is being naive here. An opportunity arose for him to finally get Karla. Smiley did not create this opportunity, but rather it fell in his lap. So, he had a choice: Get Karla via blackmail or stay true to his principles. In the long run, Smiley made the right choice. Had he chosen not to do so, he probably would have regretted it.

Most of all, I think that after Karla’s surrender, Smiley is overwhelmed by an anticlimactic depression. For Smiley, this is the end of history. He has achieved a decades long goal, plus, he’s finished with Ann. Now what? Live the life of a pensioner? Become like Connie or Eliot’s Prufrock:
I grow old . . . I grow old . . .
I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.

reply

Smiley's method of getting Karla to defect was not as cruel as people make it out to be. Smiley appealed to Karla's love for his daughter. Karla's love for his daughter was not a *beep* in his armor. It was rather the evidence of Karla's humanity. As a result, Smiley did't pull any dirty strings in order to coerce Karla to defect. Smiley appealed to Karla's humanity, to his fatherhood and the fact, in choosing his daughter over the state, Karla was renouncing the principles that he had been living by all his life. The ground Karla had been standing was being cut away.

Karla would not resent being coerced out of Russia like this. He realized he had to choose his child over the state, and as such love for one's family trumps any political allegiance to a state. Karla would cooperate in interrogations. Smiley was Karla's archenemy and Smiley had won, and Karla had to respect that.

reply

This ignores what we know about the degree of Karla’s fanaticism. Karla was of a generation of revolutionary communists that absolutely believed that they would see the end of history (in the Marxist sense) within their lifetimes. His circumstances—being an exceptionally powerful official but living in monastic austerity while most of his comrades chose to take advantage of the many privileges of office—demonstrate his level of commitment. Being compelled sacrifice his belief system and the well-being of his daughter puts him in the same position as the medieval Spanish Jews who were forced to convert to Christianity. He did it, but it seems very unlikely he’d like it.

Karla would probably cooperate, but only because he knew that his daughter’s future well-being depended on it. And he probably wouldn’t “resent” Smiley for the what had happened. “Hate” might be nearer the mark.

reply

Karla would also have known that his role in the Soviet state was over, no matter what he did.

Defect to the West and he will never see Russia again. But at least his daughter will be well treated and he will continue to survive, however modestly.

Stay in the USSR and his embezzlement will become widely known. His enemies in the Kremlin (and you don't rise that high without making a few) will pounce. Karla will be, at best, imprisoned. His daughter will be discarded.

Karla can only select the lesser of two horrible choices.

reply

It is (as you get from the novel) just what others have stated...George was ashamed that he used Karlas' "own methods" against him.

reply

It's what I took from it too. Far from being "happy" that Karla was brought in and their lifetime chess game over, Smiley and Karla had more in common with one another than anybody else.

They both had the woman in their lives they loved most used against them by each other.

It wasn't a "clean kill" in Smiley's eyes. He stooped low to get Karla in--just as Karla had done to him by destroying his marriage to Ann.

The whole thing was just inutterably sad, in the end.

I'd always felt that it was more Smiley's attachment to the General and appreciation for his dedication (which Smiley outlines in one of his most emotive scenes of the series) that drove him to explore the ultimate mystery. He just felt he and the UK owed it to the General to find out what happened to him.

Bringing Karla in ended up being the anti-climax, especially as Smiley had to feel a bit soiled by the whole thing, using Karla's love for his daughter.

reply