MovieChat Forums > Raiders of the Lost Ark (1981) Discussion > Outcome of the story being the same if I...

Outcome of the story being the same if Indy weren’t in it


This was pointed out in a Big Bang Theory episode, but do you consider it an actual flaw

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No, not a flaw. Indy prevented the Nazis from possessing the ark at the end of the film. His mission was to acquire the ark and return it to the U.S. denying the Nazis, which was successful.



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No, not a flaw. Indy prevented the Nazis from possessing the ark at the end of the film.

He didn't, you know. Indy was taken prisoner, and the nazis were in possession of it. Then they all died and possessed it no more. So it was the nazis themselves who caused the nazis to lose possession of the ark.

Of course, the war could have ended before it had started had the Americans gift wrapped the ark and sent it to Berlin.

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He didn't, you know. Indy was taken prisoner, and the nazis were in possession of it. Then they all died and possessed it no more. So it was the nazis themselves who caused the nazis to lose possession of the ark.


Sure he did. Indy correctly surmised that closing his eyes during the ark unboxing would save his life and Marion's. If Indy died on the island with everyone else, the Nazis still would have recovered the ark as they were the only ones who knew the sub headed toward that island.

Indy was able to get off the island with the Ark before the Nazis sent out a scouting trip to see why they had lost contact with their men.

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Sure he did. Indy correctly surmised that closing his eyes during the ark unboxing would save his life and Marion's. If Indy died on the island with everyone else, the Nazis still would have recovered the ark as they were the only ones who knew the sub headed toward that island.

And then more nazis would've died.

Indy was able to get off the island with the Ark before the Nazis sent out a scouting trip to see why they had lost contact with their men.

Thereby saving the Third Reich. Way to go, Indy.

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And then more nazis would've died.


Win-win!

Thereby saving the Third Reich. Way to go, Indy.


Different argument..

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Win-win!

Exactly. As it happened, Indy saved their lives.

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That's a bunch of nonsense. It's an entertaining adventure, which is about the story, not about the outcome.

The outcome of the Titanic would be the same without Jack and Rose. The fucking ship still sinks at the end. It's the story and the characters that are the entertainment.

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I love that "Titanic" example, although to be fair some critics (including Roger Ebert) dissed Cameron for shoehorning such a run-of-the-mill love story into an otherwise exceptional film.

But I also disagree with the premise. It was an amusing enough bit on "Big Bang," but it doesn't hold up. After the Belloq and the Nazis die, Hitler would send more to see what happened. Eventually, they'd tip to how the ark works (if indeed it always works that way) and either (A) start using it on the battlefield or (B) store it away in the Nazi equivalent of Area 51.

Either way, the Ark goes to Hitler, so the outcome is most definitely NOT the same.

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You're right. This is one of those things that someone proposes and most people just kind of nod and give a passing thought. "Ah yeah. I can see that." But it doesn't actually stand up under scrutiny.

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At some point they would’ve opened the Ark for Hitler and it would’ve melted his face off.

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not really , several batches of Nazis would have died , thered be piles of bones all over the place,
before they realised not to look into it .

But that would be well before it was Hitler's turn to look at it

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The outcome of the Titanic would be the same without Jack and Rose.
Lol actually in the movie, Jack and Rose were a distraction to the pervy lookouts who were watching them kiss instead of looking at the sea. Remove those two and maybe you buy yourself a few extra precious seconds to miss the iceberg.

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Sorry ... just saw this post:

Jack and Rose were a distraction to the pervy lookouts who were watching them kiss instead of looking at the sea. Remove those two and maybe you buy yourself a few extra precious seconds to miss the iceberg


Cameron thought of this ... he made a point of showing the "pervy lookouts" watching Jack and Rose, then pause for a good few seconds before suddenly noticing the iceberg.

In other words, they wouldn't have seen the iceberg any sooner if Jack and Rose hadn't been out on the deck.

In any case, as made clear by the computer simulation and Thomas Andrews (Victor Garber's character), they never could've missed the iceberg at that speed. The REAL mistake was trying to miss it at all, giving the iceberg (90% of which was under water) free rein to tear up the side of the ship.

As has been pointed out by many armchair nautical experts, Titanic might've survived had she just plowed head-on into the iceberg, allowing the remaining watertight compartments to do their job and keep her afloat.

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Very good insight. Thank you for bringing this up.

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In the end everybody dies, so essentially, every story is pointless from that point of view. Nobody ever really saves anybody from anything.

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[Collider] 'Raiders of the Lost Ark': Why the "Indy Doesn't Matter" Criticism Needs to Be Put in the Ground

https://collider.com/indiana-jones-doesnt-matter-theory-is-bad/

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And even that article is missing the point. Much like most Rocky fights where Rocky is trading blows with his opponent and constantly swapping a potential victory with potential defeat, this goes back and forth until he eventually throws the final blow which wins the fight.

At the end of Raiders, it's the U.S. which has possession of the Ark as a direct result of Indiana Jones.

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No it wouldn’t. The medallion never would have been in play because Toht followed Indy to Marion.

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Yes, its a plot hole

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If Indy wasn't in it, wouldn't the Nazis have not known about the Ark at all?

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No, Indy got wind of the Ark's potential location because the two federales informed him and Brody that they intercepted a Nazi communique stating they found the lost city of Tanis and needed the headpiece for the Staff of Ra and that Professor Ravenwood might have it. The Nazis were already well on their way to recover the Ark in Tanis when Indy became involved.

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Got it. I must have remembered it wrong. It's been a while.
Thanks.

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It's a great scene, one of the best in a movie will a lot of them.

https://youtu.be/joqX0_llyWE?t=142

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Yeah, also good seeing Jek Porkins well and alive after his unfortunate trench run mishap.

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As has been pointed out, without Indy, the Nazis wouldn't have gotten to where Marion was with the medalion they needed and would have likely not gotten the Ark.

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Sure they would. It was the Nazis who knew the location of Tanis and were already digging there. The medallion would be a big time saver, but they would have found the chamber eventually.

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I think they might have given up before they got there considering how far away it was from the place they were digging. Then there is the snakes in the crypt it was kept in which might have also made them give up.

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Maybe, but if Hitler was as stubborn about this as he was about refusing to let his troops back off during the Russian winter, then who knows?

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True they were “digging in the wrong place. I am the monarch of the sea….”

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But the only reason they were digging in the wrong place was because of Toth's confrontation of Indy and Marion in Nepal. Had Indy not interfered, they may not have been able to track down Marion, but they would not have delayed their progress by digging in the wrong place - they would have continued digging all over, like they were from the start.

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No, the Nazis were already digging in Tanis, specifically looking for the ark

Toht followed Indy to Nepal, specifically looking for Ravenwood's medallion

The Nazis might have eventually stumbled across the ark without Indy, but who knows how long they'd have taken?

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Belloq told the Nazis that Indy probably knew where the medallion was, the Nazis then "accidentally" leaked to the Americans that they had discovered Tanis and were going after the staff of Ra. This caused Indy to lead Toht to Marion who had the Medallion. The entire film would not have happened if it weren't for Indy, the ark would have remained buried for eternity.

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... if it weren't for Indy, the ark would have remained buried for eternity.


Depends on the Nazi's level of interest. They had already spent a lot of time and resources just finding Tanis and excavating as much as they did well before Jones got involved. Without Jones or without the headpiece, it's not a stretch to say the Nazis would have simply continued digging (by brute force if necessary) until every part of Tanis had been scoured clean.

But it was Jones who successfully completed the mission to recover the Ark and return it to the U.S.


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