More English Bashing


Another English bashing film starring Mel Gibson.

The film makes out the evil British/English sat on a beach "drinking teas" (no joke, its a line in the film) while the Ausies died fighting....

Must have been some bad tea, because my mates great grandad died at Gallipoli....my own great grandad fought there as well... the Ausies were brave and did their bit, a hell of alot actualy...but it belittles their memory and other mens memories when they twist the truth of a pretty terrible time in all our nations history.

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[deleted]

I agree...having seen the film again tonight it is a film that shows the British as callous Colonel Blimp characters who couldnt care less about the lives of colonial Men.This may have had some isolated truth but ,yes, it does have a certain cynicism and does seem to decry the terrible losses suffered by the Brits aswell.

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Quote: the Ausies were brave and did their bit, a hell of alot actualy

A bit, really. Well seeing as there were 3 landing beaches, the ANZACS landed at Gallipoli (the most difficult) and the other two were landed at by Poms which subsequently were abondoned because they were getting no where fast, that would have to be one of the biggest under statements ever, congratulations.

Quote: The film makes out the evil British/English sat on a beach "drinking teas" (no joke, its a line in the film) while the Ausies died fighting....

Bloody Oath! Bailed your arses out at Tobruk as well.

What we do in life, echoes an eternity!

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A hell of alot is an understatement?

How did you bail us out? Since Aussies were under British command, used British wepons, tanks, planes ect...

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Dude do you know anything about the battle? While most of the Poms were either retreating or crumbling it was mainly (again) the ANZACS holding their ground.

What we do in life, echoes an eternity!

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Precisely, that seems to be the whole point of what Peter Weir was saying-- the English officers (and admittedly some of the Aussie ones too) just saw their own brave young men as expendable pawns, giving them little qualms about sending the poor Diggers into torrents of machine-gun fire. (And even then it was a disaster-- the Brits gained nothing by getting all their soldiers killed like that, they wound up having to evacuate the beaches in abject defeat.) Weir was showing that despite all the talk about materiel and yards gained, there were a bunch of guys you can sympathize with, mowed down for the most foolish of reasons.

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All you have to look at a few of lines from the Tennyson poem, The Charge of the Light Brigade, about a battle that took place about 60 years before this movie takes place, to see how many commanding officers saw their troops.

Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die

World War I, more than any other I think, was a war of attrition. The only strategy seemed to be "lets just keep throwing bodies out there until either they run out or we run out.

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The inaccuracies in the film concerning the British were by no means necessary for dramatic purposes and it would be better if they were not there, they diminish the film somewhat. I believe that Peter Weir has subsequently stated he regrets their inclusion. I don't know if that is also true of David Williamson, who is credited with writing the screenplay: perhaps so?

"I beseech ye in the bowels of Christ, think that ye may be mistaken."

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Lot of Australians were British immigrants . Maybe Robinson one of them?

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"Well seeing as there were 3 landing beaches, the ANZACS landed at Gallipoli (the most difficult) and the other two were landed at by Poms which subsequently were abondoned because they were getting no where fast."

There were actually six landing beaches on the Gallipoli peninsular itself on April 25, 1915, with the ANZACS landing only at ANZAC Cove and the British and French landing at the other beaches. Opposition varied, but was toughest at W Beach (Lancashire Landing - where the Lancashire Fusiliers won 6 VC's) and V Beach. ANZAC Cove was a stalemate from the off. Later the British landed more troops at Suvla Bay.

In total, Australia lost about 9,000 dead in the campaign, and NZ lost about 3,000 dead. The Brits lost over 21,000 dead.

Like the guy said, the ANZACS did their bit. And that's what it was - a bit.

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[deleted]

I suggest you read up about the history of the campaign (try Wikipedia for a start). You are obviously ignorant of the facts.

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Ok fair enough, the Brits do get a bit of a bashing in this film but the English have shat on the world throughout history, so in my opinion the *beep* deserve it.
While their army was out fighting WW1 they sent mercenaries (rapists/murderers/petty thieves ie anyone in their prisons) to Ireland to do their Dirty work during the rebellion.
I like England but their history and even today's political stance suck balls.

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*the Brits do get a bit of a bashing in this film but the English have shat on the world throughout history*

Britain is a political union instituted by the Scottish King James 6.

England is a country which had union imposed upon it.

The two are NOT interchangeable labels.

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[deleted]

...the English have shat on the world throughout history...
Couldn't agree with this statement any more.

If you want to see just how much I agree, see my posts over on the Pat Buchanan board.




I'm not a control freak, I just like things my way

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A load of utter bollocks, Britain's history is no worse or better than most countries in Europe. The only reason BRITAIN (not *beep* England you little *beep* is the focus, is because:

America won the war of independence
-> America dominates the media
-> America took a long time to get over painting Britain as evil

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Bloody Poms, stop watching our movies! Go drink some tea.

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You're a goose mate. Yes, the whole of WWI could be seen as many major cockups by officers with massive life lose, but to think Australians were the only victims - that is plain silly. Ordinary British (and other allies) suffered from the stupidity as well.

There is no way you can say Australian's are better fighters, there is no quantitative way of comparing, it doesn't matter it was all senseless...

On the flip side however is, you can not just compare casualties numbers. Remember Australia's population was tiny back then (as was NZ). Three million I believe. If I recall my stats correctly it was somewhere between 1/5 to 1/8 of our entire population were casulities of the great war.

I don't think this film is english bashing, yes the whole story is not completely told, but this movie is not about the war, or even the battle at Gallipoli, it is about mateship and it is viewed from the cannon fodder that happened (in this instance) to be Australian.

Btw another user comment or thread mentioned there was other battles in WWI that were worse for allied forces. It is the same for the ANZACS, they fought those battles as well.

There are many other reasons why Gallipoli is important to Australians and the legend it has born, but that is too detailed to go into here.

In short; blame the upper class poms, not all english... ;P

ps However I agree Mel Gibson does have a tendency to bash the English. This movie is not one of them however... We all know mad he is anyway...

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Again you Poms have to be reminded...


There are accounts of tea-drinking, not to mention swimming, during Stopford's fatal halt at Suvla Bay... when the hills were undefended and the August offensive at ANZAC was being held to the south (The Nek, Lone Pine, Chunuk Bair).

"When some of Hamilton's staff-officers, who were puzzled by the lack of activity, visited the beachhead in the afternoon, they could not believe their eyes, when they found officers drinking tea, while the men were idling on the beach or having a swim in the sea. In the meantime, the clock was slowly ticking away the hours and their luck was inevitably running out."

Source... http://users.skynet.be/Gallipoli/hist/his6_2.htm



Secondly... the Colonel Robinson depicted in the film is wearing an AIF hat badge. He is an Australian officer sending Australian soldiers to their deaths. He is based on the Australian 3rd Light Horse Colonel Antill.

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Again you Aussies need to be reminded...

The attack by the Australians at The Nek was primarily in support of the Kiwis at Chunuk Bair. Furthermore, the Brits were also involved in heavy fighting at the same time on the Helles front. None of this is mentioned in the movie. The technically correct "drinking tea on the beach" line is strategically placed in the movie to give the impression the Australians were being used as cannon fodder to save British lives - this is wrong.

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I've got no argument against the fact that The Nek was just a feint. The Nek was a support attack for Chunuk Bair (which the British lost in a counter-attack)... Chunuk Bair was more strategic.

The 'drinking tea on the beach' statement is technically and historically accurate, sadly.


The question asked by the General at the GHQ was whether the British were receiving heavy opposition at Suvla Bay. The fact is that they weren't... even though the hills above Suvla Bay were virtually undefended.

In context, Stopford's incompetence alone justifies the metaphorical use of 'drinking cups of tea'... whether it happened or not. Just as 'twiddling their thumbs' or 'scratching their balls' would have sufficed.

The fact is... the British officers drank cups of tea and the regular soldiers were bathing in the sea... while Commonwealth and some British troops were fighting to the south.

The lengthy and costly halt at Suvla was inexcusible and deserves to be ridiculed.


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The lengthy and costly halt at Suvla was inexcusible and deserves to be ridiculed.


Yes, it does. But that should not include the UK overall.

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Australian census statistics up to the great war divided British subjects
who's origin was the United kingdom based on their birth place. England, Wales, Scotland or Ireland.

In does to remember many Australians of the day still considered them selves
British subjects especially if English. We could probably leave most Irish
migrants (deportees) out of this group.
I suspect their was a degree of ambivalence from other members of the union
as well.

Australian military attestation papers of the time recorded the same divisions.

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There was also an Indian Brigade at Gallipoli as well.

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What could be more fun for Aussies than giving it to England? Bring it on!

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"The 'drinking tea on the beach' statement is technically and historically accurate, sadly."

No it's not historially accurate. Only Bill Gammage's makes any mention of it, and guess what, he's Australian. The other reference that Weir used for the film, the Official War History which was mainly written and edited by Charles Bean makes no reference to drinking tea.
Just because it says on an internet sight that it happned, it far from makes it historically accurate.

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In short; blame the upper class poms, not all english... ;P


Nor is this correct. The British officer class suffered one of the highest casualty rates in the Great War. An officer was much less likely to survive the experience than his enlisted comrade. The whole thing was a ghastly and bloody mess. Dreadful mistakes were made on all sides as great nations went to war using their new found industrial might. It is a ridiculous notion, one hundred years later, to suggest that my forebear suffered more than yours. Let us just hope and pray that we never have to witness the like again.

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Nor is this correct. The British officer class suffered one of the highest casualty rates in the Great War. An officer was much less likely to survive the experience than his enlisted comrade. The whole thing was a ghastly and bloody mess. Dreadful mistakes were made on all sides as great nations went to war using their new found industrial might. It is a ridiculous notion, one hundred years later, to suggest that my forebear suffered more than yours. Let us just hope and pray that we never have to witness the like again.


It is stunning that it took so many pages for one person to come out with this one fact and it is a fact, that flies in the face of the constant dismissal of the whole officer corps of the British army as cowards who sent poor Aussies to die for them. Whatever else they may have been the officers in the British army weren't cowards and were actually expected to go out first, stay in front and die first. And any checking of the casualty figures will show anyone bothered to look that this wasn't just the 2nd lieutenant and lieutenant level, many battalions were having their entire officer staff shredded in attacks. The film does misrepresent Gallipoli in a way that does accurately reflect what so many Australians think it the truth, (as shown on here and other internet debates about the campaign). As a film about a generic war and comradeship and mistakes it works, as a film supposedly reflecting those things within a very specific historical event it doesn't.

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They were sitting on the beach drinking tea because it wasnt their turn to fight,they had already done their bit and had more turns to come,its as simple as that.Ask yourself,where were the Anzacs and what were they doing when Brittish soldiers were getting killed,21,000 of ours.Soldiers dont all go into battle at the same time,they all have their role to play and they follow the orders they are given,if their orders are to attack at a certain time then thats what they do.And no one knows who is going to get the worst deal,one battalion of Lancashire fusiliers landed with no problem and had no enemy to attack on their beach, where as another battalion OF Lancashires met with loads of barbed wire set up in the water placed there by the Turks,they were cut to pieces the sea ran red with blood,a terrible sight apparently.Why didnt anyone help them?its because they couldnt,the other soldiers couldnt leave their positions,they were all vulnerable.There is a documentary on the history channel about soldiers at war and how when some were fighting others were having a rest period only yards away,they may be swimming or just relaxing,its nothing unusual,the Anzacs did the same,or how do you think they ate and drank,or do you think they went with out food and water and didnt bath.Look at it logically.The film uses the line drinking tea on the beach at the worst possible opportunity,to let the viewer think the Brittish didnt care,when the Brittish soldiers were really awaiting their own orders.Their turn was yet to come.And also Scothendo or what ever your name is,our soldiers didnt retreat because that was a court martial offence and for that we would have been shot at dawn.

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[deleted]

A decent post Caz1964, some people obviously dont understand the importance of holding reserves in a battle and what better way for a reserve to pass his time than by brewing up and keeping himself warm and refreshed ready for when his turn comes?

Gallipoli is laced with Anti-Brit propoganda, British soldier fought just as hard as the Anzacs there, and if any Aussies are looking for one upmanship then focus on Cricket where you have a legitimate argument and not on this completely one sided piece of turd film.

[Truth is the first casualty in Hollywood's war]

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it was mentioned in here that thier was divided opinion in australia at the time as regards the war
this is clear in that mark lees charechter who is clearly of english stock is keen to fight for the monarchy and empire where as mel gibsons charechter dunne is of irish stock and has no such love for australias home country

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It isn't "English bashing" per se it is more bashing of the English officers. Although the officer in Gallipoli was, historically speaking, Australian that sent them to their deaths, the English officers were particularly nasty not just to the Austalians, New Zealanders and other colonials but also to the common British infantryman.

The only difference between the Australian soldier and the British soldier in WW1 was that ANZACS didn't have to put up with English officers pomp and arrogance. Unfortunately, the common English man did have to put up with it under threat of punishment or even execution. The bravery and sacrifice of the soldiers at Gallipoli regardless of nationality is something to be admired and remembered. There were British cowards as there were Australian cowards who deserted and were promptly shot. I'm sure any ANZAC would give you a good smack around the ears if they heard the crap being slung around here about the Allies they fought and died with.

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Ludendorff: The British soldiers fight like lions.

Hoffmann: True. But don't we know that they are lions led by donkeys.

I see the movie like a reference to the poor command structure of the british empire.

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Squeeth, how can you be so disrespectful of the 101st Poets Battallion? Who can forget their sacrifice at Flanders Field? Mown down tragically before they could even get to the end of their first stanza..!

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WW1 poetry is classic, I quote Rupert Brooke's "The Soldier" every time I go on Holiday


"If I should die of alchohol poisoning, think only this of me, there is some beer and kebab smelling corner of a foreign field that is forever England"

[Truth is the first casualty in Hollywood's war]

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Well what if I did, sonny???

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[deleted]

Yeah? YEAH? YEAH??? YeaaaaH??? Come on en! Come on!!!

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[deleted]

You two do realise, those lines are only truely effective when spoken in a Geordie accent...

"Did ye call wor pint a poof like!!!"

Much more menacing

[Truth is the first casualty in Hollywood's war]

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[deleted]

The British were on the beach having tea probably because it was teatime.

A chap has to have a cup of tea at teatime or he is liable to forget which end to fix his bayonet, and who knows what may happen. It’s simple division of labour. Ausies hold the lines while the English brew up some fine lapsang souchong, slice the lemons, and make sure the china is warm.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m very grateful, but I’m only surprised my forebears didn’t take the time to break out the cucumber sandwiches. It shows how seriously they took the situation.

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>>>Explain 21,000 British deaths then

You may wish to contemplate the possibility that he wasn't being entirely serious.

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[deleted]

He did, I think. Perhaps you should read the post again and check it for irony and self-conscious absurdity.

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If you look at the thread towards the beginning theres a few deleted posts that were saying things in pretty much the same way as what he said,and what they were saying they meant and was un called for,thats why i came on to this message board in the first place.

If he was joking and i took it the wrong way then i apologise i dont want to upset anyone.But this is one of those message boards that can get a bit over-sensitive very quickly,im trying to protect my own here the British soldiers who got no recognition in the Dardanelles,over 90 years on and most people including their own kind dont know of their wasted sacrifice.

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I can confirm that I was joking, although I personally prefer the term “being post-ironic”.

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Im sorry,i could see after reading it a second time that you weren't being serious.

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Bit of a generalisation, don't you think? We can all play that game, but I shall resist on this occasion.

However, I think that actually this IS an issue where the film Gallipoli is concerned since it wildly misrepresents history on a number of counts, apparently for simplistic, jingoistic purposes.

Not that Mel Gibson had any creative influence on the film, so far as I'm aware, but nonetheless it does fit a curiously anglophobic and antihistorical streak on his Cv.

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What posters like Gamelon222 seem to forget is that we are supposed to accept these so called English character portrayals as being realistic when they are so laughingly stupid to us.
But will they ever listen?

oops am i moaning?

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The director (Australian) was apparently a staunch lefty nationalist. As far as I'm concerned this explains the horrendous anglo-phoebia and blatent lies to make Australians hate England.

Braveheart achieved the same thing.

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Peter Weir always denied that it was anti-English. He said that in the film, it was an Australian officer that made the stupid order to send the troops into certain death; it was not directly caused by the British.

Also, he much later directed Master And Commander: The Far Side Of The World, where all the main characters were British sailors fighting against the French.

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Peter Weir is normally a very good director,i loved Master And Commander, i thought it was spot on to how the Royal Navy were at that time.
But i think with Gallipoli Peter Weir has hes regrets probably in the same way as Richard Attenbourgh has his regrets in how he portrayed the British officers in the film Oh What A Lovely War as a lot of British Officers did give
their lives for WW1
At the end of the day who is really to blame.

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Having seen the film again the other night, I agree with the earlier post that it isn't really about Gallipoli as such, but about "mateship". This is seen not just in the relationship between Mark Lee's and Mel Gibson's characters; but in the bonding between Mel Gibson's character and his other friends. As for the English drinking tea and bathing while the Aussies fought and died, as others have pointed out, not every soldier can fight 24 hours a day; and while someone is having a break someone may be getting killed (certainly in WW1). It's also worth noting that in the movie, when Mel Gibson and his mates first land, they don't seem to be doing much fighting either, and THEY are seen having a swim - but presumably others, including Poms, were dying in battle at that time.

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I am pretty sure the film makers could not have imagined that this film
would ever be much of a success outside Australia or that it would still be seen to be relevant in 2007.Personally I am not sure that it was when they made it.

One of its themes is exploring some supposed unique Australian character or
temperament and if they existed I am not sure they got it right.

I am certain they could not have conceived that people would be dissecting the films possible anti English bias more than twenty years on.
Weir simply picked up on a real and persistent anti English thread that existed
in Australian culture and society at the time.
In fact calling it anti English is a simplification and not quite accurate
it seems to defy pining down properly but needs must call it something.
How they chose to represent it is simply poetic license.
It would not have been honest not to include it.


It has long since ceased to have any meaning in contemporary Australian culture
for the simple reason there is almost no one left who knows or cares
what it was really all about.

Bang on lads.

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About time someone said this.

There is a scene in the very same film where Aussies are seen drinking Tea, and indeed, swimming in the sea.

Ridiculous argument.

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Hear, hear!

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Not an anti English movie but it does make reference to anti English sentiments.

Much like a water mark. Its there if you look for it.

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Much like a water mark. Its there if you look for it.


It's a lot more blatant than that.

[Truth is the first casualty in Hollywood's war]

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Hmmmm maybe the water mark analogy is not such a good one.

I am trying to say without the reference to this part of the Gallipoli
myth its likely this film would have had limited appeal in Australia.
At least at the time.

If you were to make the film now it would be inconceivable to
leave out Simson and his bloody donkey.

The myth is being recast with each generation and it is remade
slightly differently each time.

Oddly the anti English bias seems to be pretty well nigh
immutable so it must be a popular concept.

As I said I am not sure this film portrays accurately any of
the supposed national characteristics that made us different.
Going by film evidence of the day every one looked the same
once shot.


Bit off topic but its rumored the current Australian
Government want to add mate-ship and a dash of ANZAC
spirit to the water supply here.
Apparently we seem to have lost our grip on the concept
as they see it.

Will not be necessary in NZ they will get enough of while they
are working here.



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If they do make a movie with Simpson in it I hope thay are accurate and give him a geordie accent - seeing as this great "Australian" hero was actually born and raised in South Shields.

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"I hope thay are accurate and give him a geordie accent"

I love this accent stuff to do with England. Geordie, Smoggy....Cockney
Was there or is there a term for the accent of the social elite.

Which I imagine was much the same every where from Tyneside to Cheapside.

In the context of the film and this thread it does seem paradoxical
that you could accept Simpson being portrayed as a Geordie but not
Australian officers of the day being portrayed with English accents.

Which they would most certainly would have had. Most of the Senior and a fair
proportion junior Australian officers at Galipoli had far more in common
with there English colleges than they did with their men.

We are talking largely about men from the Melbourne Club and the
North Shore of Sydney and sons of the Squatocracy.
A fair percentage of senior officers even the Australian born being educated in England.


Of all the Australian myths about the Great War the idea that the common man
and the officer class some how bonded in this great egalitarian pact.
Well its just utter rubbish but it goes on being propagated just the same.

Australian soldiers of the day had a derogatory term they applied to all
in charge who killed them with cock ups. They were called "the heads".
A term they used without prejudice English or Australian alike.

For all I know the Tommy used it to.

If you look beneath the surface of this anti English sentiment you
would find at its core a bitter class resentment that flourished
in Australia then and the legacy still survives today.
It is puzzling some insist on continuing to interpreting the film in such a way as to
transfer most of this to British people in general and the common soldier in particular.

It just is not intended to be there. I think.




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"In the context of the film and this thread it does seem paradoxical
that you could accept Simpson being portrayed as a Geordie but not
Australian officers of the day being portrayed with English accents."

I never mentioned anything about Australian officers, so I ain't being paradoxical. Good point about accents, though. I think many of the officers and men of ANZAC would have had various English accents, seeing as many were recent emigrants to Australia. Also, I'm not convinced there would have been a defined Australian accent back in 1915, what with the country being so new. Maybe you can prove me otherwise.

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I think you might find the Brit bashing to be the work of a certain financial backer of the film, one Rupert Murdoch, esq. His grandfather was an Australian journalist at Gallipoli for one of the London papers who fell out with Churchill, and I think the enmity has rankled ever since. (I'm an Aussie by the way).

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"His grandfather was an Australian journalist at Gallipoli for one of the London papers who fell out with Churchill"

He was..... and saw him self as a real power, with influence and loved intrigue
and imbroglio for the sake of it.


Not only did he write copy for various papers but ha acted as Billy Hughes
(Austs PM)unofficial agent to the British cabinet. Or thats how he represented himself.

He and Charles Bean(Aust official war Historian) were also running mates for a while.
I do not agree he or later Murdoch's were at the root of anti English
feelings, Bean probably had more to do with that. A proportion
of the Australian public at the time did not need much encouragement.

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[deleted]

"There was no drinking of tea"

You're statement is wrong. There was lots of tea drinking, by both the British AND the Australians.

There is quite a famous photograph taken from the heights above ANZAC cove showing the Brits attacking (and getting slaughtered) at Suvla Bay. Strange how nobody ever mentions that the Aussies were probably drinking tea as they watched all this happen.

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[deleted]

YOu are all a bunch of neanderthals. Australians, British, Scottish, French,Indians and New Zealanders (including Maori) fought, died and did so bravely. As for the tea drinking, Tea was consumed by all, you can't fault a bloke for having a cuppa before its his turn to die. All men, regardless of nationality fought for the same cause and died on the same lump of soil. The nationality of the officers who *beep* up is immaterial and any attempt to denigrate the contribution of a particular group is dishonourable and only makes you guys look like you are trying to take thge glory for whatbrave men did. Were they (officers) British? who cares, Were they Australians? who cares. The Tommies and the diggers would have had the same amount of contempt for the Officers in control. How dare any of you belittle the brave sacrifice of the Brits, ANZACS or any others who fought. Grow up.

The Gallipoli campaign was a failure, however, this is not licence to "bash poms" as it was an Australian officer who sent those men to their deaths. FACT. And your all arguing over who were better fighters? grow up. All of them would have been scared to die but did so anyway. And all there is left is idiots such as yourselves to take the glory for it and embarrass your respective nations. This wasn't a cricket game you fools.

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[deleted]

the australians were sent to gallipoli to gain control of the area because the british wanted and needed to get supplies through to russia, but couldnt because it was through the dardanelles which was controlled by turkey.
so australian troups were sent BUT landed two kilometers north of the intended spot!!! they landed on the beach only to be met by turkish troups that were waiting to ambush them on the cliffs.
while all this was happening the british were waiting, they did not help.
but yea its true the british do drink tea, but thats not a bad thing everyone drinks tea.
and yes the australians were incredibly brave and war was falsely advertised in australia giving men the wrong idea of what it was going to be. but in saying this the men at gallipoli were not conscripted and had a choice about going to war. each country even turky and germany lost many men that would have had families and would have had to have been brave to fight in a war. each man that survived the war would never have forgotten the horrors and therefore each man deserves the same gratitude and memorial of that of the ANZACS.

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[deleted]

Argh, I can't be bothered reading all of the previous posts, but here's my two cents-
It seems like alot of English posters are arguing that because the British sustained heavier losses (something like 21,000 was mentioned, compared to 9,000 Australians) the Poms were braver and sacrificed more, the film is inaccurate and demeans the British forces, blah blah.

Well first of all I think everyone needs to recognise that the Australian army was there to support the British, and indeed the rest of the Allies in Europe- we're on the whole other side of the world, and didn't directly need to be involved at all. We could have just stayed at home and ignored the war, but we didn't, and still don't, because we wanted to help. So the English posters need to appreciate that our men went and died for you, and are still serving on the front line for you in Iraq right now, and you need to be grateful.

Secondly, Australia's population was only 5 million at the time so whatever losses we sustained at Gallipoli, it was probably more than the British in terms of percentage of population. But even if it wasn't, this was our first war as a federated nation, and we weren't even fighting to save our own country.
Thirdly it has been shown time and time again that yes, there were some of those weirdo British commanders who thought Australian lives were more expendable than the British. If English posters want to dispute that fact, go ahead, but they and everyone else knows that this as at least to some degree the truth.

Maybe this film does bash the British a bit too much, but at the end of the day it's a movie, and there is at least a small bit of historical fact behind it.

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"I can't be bothered reading all of the previous posts, but... It seems like alot of English posters are arguing that because the British sustained heavier losses (something like 21,000 was mentioned, compared to 9,000 Australians) the Poms were braver and sacrificed more.

Nobody has ever said the "Poms" were braver than anyone else. However, many Australians seem to suggest the Anzacs were braver than the Brits. I suggest you read the posts before making any further comments.

BTW, people seem to forget that most of the "Aussies" were actually born in Britain, or were first or second generation British. There were actually few cultural differences between the "Aussies" and the Brits. To suggest that one lot was braver than the other is complete nonsense, seeing as there were so many similarities between the two. It would be like arguing soldiers from Queensland were braver than soldiers from Western Australia.

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"BTW, people seem to forget that most of the "Aussies" were actually born in Britain, "

SMDarby

You keep on posting the same old rubbish. You must know this is wrong why keep
saying it.

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Oh, Pootle! The full quote was:

"BTW, people seem to forget that most of the "Aussies" were actually born in Britain, OR were first or second generation British."

This is a fact. Please don't misquote me again.

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by SMDarby (Wed Apr 25 2007 12:41:00 )
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"Oh, Pootle! The full quote was:

"BTW, people seem to forget that most of the "Aussies" were actually born in Britain, OR were first or second generation British."

This is a fact. Please don't misquote me again."

Look I am not trying to miss quote you. I disagree with you completely.

I shortened it for brevity sake. Anyone remotely interested could have gone
back to your post. How ever I doubt anyone but you or I care.

To take your entire quote in context it is I believe still wrong.

Most means a great many or the majority. Australia had been settled for
over seven generations by the time the of the great war.

Added to that there was significant re migration from Australia to New Zealand Canada the US and back to Britain in the later period leading up to the war.

What you are saying may just be possible for some company size units from Western Australia but to apply it to all the originals at landing and to the formations at Gallipoli as a whole not possible.

Migrants between 1880 and the war would have to have been having ten sons
each or more.

Try most of the Aussies were originally of British ancestry
that I could agree with.

There is simply no factual basis for what you are saying.

You went on to say there were no cultural differences which I would
maintain is also miss spoke.

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Um, okay smdarby, I think you're a bit agro.
I never said that I thought the Australian's were braver than the British, I just said some of the other posters had been whinging about stuff like that, or that it seemed like that's what they were arguing. As I said before, I haven't read all the posts, probably not even most of them, because that would be a waste of my life and I'm a busy busy person. So go cry about somebody else, not me.
Secondly, just because back then most of the Australian's and their families had recently immigrated from Britain does not mean there were few cultural differences. That's such a short sighted comment. The majority of Australian settlers were from Ireland, and we had the Chinese immigration during the 1850s gold rush, and all the Californians coming in then, too. We were so different to Britain I don't know where to start. Our attitude is different, our soldiers were fighting for different reasons. A lot of our soldiers were just kids who'd grown up in towns and in the bush and were naive and thought they'd go for an adventure, and to say they were "so many similarities between the two" is uneducated.
And again, I'm not arguing that we were braver than you, or better than you, or sacreficed more than you, because we weren't. All I'm saying is it wasn't our war, but we came and fought anyway, and that's pretty good if you ask me.

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Most of the Australians were born in Britain yes, but at that time Britain encompassed Ireland aswell. Many, many sons of Scotland, Ireland and Wales are too often lumped in together as "Brits" although I am not denigrating our British heritage at all.

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[deleted]

During the campaign a reporter from austrialia toured the allied lines, he then wrote a letter to the austrialian prime minister (which was against the rules) he made the statement about the english soldiers being lazy, cowards and so on, and the aussie soldiers carrying the fight and being a fine example of austrialian manhood. The aussie prime minister sent the letter to the english prime minister and its release to the public caused quite a uproar. The reporter was Ken Murdoch, the father of Rubert Murdoch who financed the film.

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it was not my intention to belittle the british. im a big fan of the british beleive me. now that i know a bit more i see that the british were wrongly portrayed as drinking tea etc. so im sorry but just so you know my intention was to actually agree with you.

The Suvla and Anzac link-up was successfully made (see Source 7 ) but the main attack strategy failed. Only the New Zealanders and supporting British troops reached their objective of Chunuk Bair. They briefly gained the summit, but could not hold it. The force made little progress and was of no assistance to the men on Chunuk Bair.

This is the action shown in the 1981 film Gallipoli, which presents an inaccurate view of the strategic situation and distorts the role of the British (‘drinking tea on the beach while the Anzacs are being slaughtered at the Nek’).

-taken from the australian government war verterans page http://www.dva.gov.au/commem/commac/studies/anzacsk/aday4.htm#strat




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The reporter was Keith Murdoch(who was later knighted as Sir Keith), he was the father of Rupert Murdoch who financed the film along with Robert Stigwood.

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Hi folks,

Please read my post in 'international perception of the Anzacs' for the full story, but it was not Gallipoli, or any event in WWI that is the cause of (misplaced) Australian resentment of the British. Australia was a colonial member of the British Empire, and damn proud of it. Proud enough to defend it, where-ever was required. As much as every man on the battle field.

And if you want per capita tragedy then look no further than the Welsh 'contribution' in the Dardanelles.

Peter Weir's film did romance the truth for dramatic purposes. It was a film, not a doco. And a damn fine one. Loved it, which is paradoxical considering how bloody depressing it is. Laughed, laughed, then cried. Great cinema. And if you want to find blame, then blame Frank Dunne (Mel Gibson) for not being as fast a runner as Archy Hamilton (Mark Lee). Then get over it.

Who's soldiers bled the most? Nine pints per man, I believe is the figure, regardless of who their mother was.

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If that doesnt sound like propaganda then nothing does.

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This is mild compared to the many irish pro republican anti british films that are knocked out by the film studios. I believe the last one was even funded partly by the british lottery arts council.


The Wind That Shakes The Barley

http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0460989/

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Part of the shambles was that the British officers assigned to command the invasion were very 2nd class. The British top-brass would not release their "best" generals from the Western Front as they believed France/Belgium is where the war would be won. Consequently, the Dardanelles campaign ended up with old duffers like General Stopford - of Suvla bay fame, who had no command experience of formations, landings or even much fighting (if any) and who was pulled out of retirement as no one else was available (he was Constable of the Tower of London before being appointed to command troops for Gallipoli).




You wanna f * * k with me? Okay. Say hello to my little friend! (Tony Montana)

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If any one wants to see a more realistic portrayal of British officers during this period then watch some of the films like 'All The Kings Men'or 'The Shooting Party'as these are far more accurate and fair portrayals of British Officers of the time.
Anything but not this film as its got them no where near right.

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Its just one portray, is there really any point getting so worked up about it? I mean sure its not very nice, and wasnt very true to form, but Australians have always had a low perception of the English, its just the way we are, probably cause we have such strong Irish connections. Though you have to admit there was very poor handling of Australian Troops in WWI. Then again I am Australian, so I am naturally biased.

----------------------------
A revolution without dancing, is not a revolution worth having!

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"I personally don't think that Mel Gibson being an "Anglophobe" is an issue, seeing as how a majority of you Brit's come into other threads and start flaming the U.S., Aussies, and pretty much every Nationality known to man. "

When was this?
Okay, theres a certain number of people that do that sort of thing from every country but a "majority" of us Brits?

I personally am quite offended by you labelling a majority of "Brits" as racists

_____________

Tsk²

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I think there is some confusion about the origins of the negative side of Australian/English relationship.
There is what existed at Gallipoli nearly one hundred years ago and the legacy we have now.

I think they are very different.

A big proportion of Australian soldiers had a particular contempt for a particular class of English officer
any sign ......even a hint of the old world haughtiness, condescension or heaven forbid any expectation they should
tug the forelock and it would be "on".

Australian officers who tried it on came in for the most remorseless mocking.
I am not saying this was necessarily a good thing.....it just was.

Rank made no difference even General Birdwood himself the English division commander became used to not being
saluted and being told to get stuffed if he crossed the line. .
He recounts some classic incidences himself and even seemed amused if puzzled by it.
Even so Birdwood liked the Australians and even admitted to admiration.

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"A big proportion of Australian soldiers had a particular contempt for a particular class of English officer."

Same goes for British soldiers. In fact, officers in the Brit armed forces are still nicknamed "Ruperts" after the upper-class cartoon Rupert the Bear.

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I love to English bash.

The bludger should not be a National Icon.

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