MovieChat Forums > The Fan (1981) Discussion > As for all the 'gay fear and self loathi...

As for all the 'gay fear and self loathing'...


The character of "The Fan" was a cliched, self-hating murderous gay. Yes. Criticisms warranted. But what struck me was how matter of fact and unsensational the gay elements in this were. The gay bar scene was pretty realistic. The guy he picks up looked exactly like a gay guy from that period would of looked like. The bar was just a bar, not some harlequin themed demi-monde sin pit. The silent cruise and everything else was spot on. And the murder of the gay man is disturbing because it is so plausible and the psycho would've done just what he did. When you compare this to other depictions of LGBT life from films of the time it's kind of shocking how right they got it.

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Interesting! I've never seen this (but read the book), and the only bit I have seen was in 'The Celluloid Closet,' where they show some of that murder scene but none of the pickup that precedes it. I assumed it would be exactly what it wasn't, a ridiculous movie version of a gay bar. Glad they got one thing right at least, ha ha.

Do they make him a self-loathing gay guy in the movie? In the book you could get that interpretation out of his letters if you tried, but then you could get a lot of interpretations out of them; it's left pretty vague what his actual problem is.

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I've just reread the book and seen the movie. As a gay man I didn't see Douglas as gay at all--just a very disturbed homicidal str8 guy. Seriously, you're really reaching when you say he's gay. Yes he went to a gay bar and picked up a guy but that was to kill him and make everyone think that he was the psycho. That's all there is to it.

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But I didn't say he was gay. Did you mean to reply to the OP?

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Douglas could also have been bisexual

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Nope. The novel makes it clear that he's str8.

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I'd disagree. He certainly SAYS it a lot, but he's hardly a reliable narrator...plus, not to stereotype, but he's rather prissy and really interested in musical theater, heh. That he was fighting latent homosexuality definitely seemed like one possibility to me.

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They show him going to one musical. How is that being really interested in musical theatre? Breen was just an obsessed fan who watched everything she was in, collected her memorabilia and wrote her a crap-load of disturbing letters. Then proceeded to kill people she knew when he felt ignored and rejected (SPOILER COMING) and then her and himself (in the book). Do you think maybe you're thinking he's gay because of stereotypes? You have mentioned a couple. Just curious.

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Never seen the movie so I can't comment on how the character is portrayed there. In the book he spends a lot of time talking about what a great (heterosexual) lover he would be, to the point where it entered "methinks thou doth protest too much" territory for me. There's his dressing in drag as a disguise and admiring how well he does it—because of what an effective disguise it is, he says, but I had a raised eyebrow at that, and at the way he made a point of being all "it's not because I'm GAY or anything, I mean, jeez" about both that and picking up the dude at the gay bar. Meanwhile he has this obsessive crush on an older theater actress but it frankly sounds more like a gay man's interest than a straight one's, in my experience both with stereotypes in fiction and real life. Straight guys who think an actress is sexy would pretty much leave it at "you're sexy;" gay ones would give her detailed notes about how best to showcase her talent and improve her show in between the compliments about her beauty. He did the latter, so...

Seems like the point where I should mention I'm saying this as a gay guy who hasn't exactly avoided the NYC theater community. I've been closeted and overcompensating, I've met guys who were closeted and overcompensating. As you know the book never comes around to sitting down and explaining what makes him tick, so it could be several things and this isn't necessarily it, but it was ringing some bells for me.

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I read the book this past summer and don't remember Breen dressing in drag at all. I'll read it again tonight to refresh my memory.

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I read the book again and Breen clearly expresses his dislike for gays. He comes off as a believable extreme homophobe and in no way a closeted homosexual. Also the dressing in drag wasn't a drag disguise at all in the way you mentioned. He dressed in disguise as a pregnant woman so he could walk by Ross' apartment building without raising alarm. He actually seemed annoyed by the whole process but was pleased by how much he didn't look like himself. This guy gets sexually aroused many times in the book but not when he was in the pregnant woman disguise. If when he describes where he picks up the gay guy, he states he needed a body. He had no interest in this guy. On another note that might prove the point against him being gay, which I am not sure anyone picked up on, I've read the book twice now and if you read it again, really read it, you will see very cleverly placed clues that were obvious to me that Breen had been with Ross on personal level.

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It's really common for a closeted guy to "prove" he's not gay by going above and beyond in homophobia, though. Like I said, methought he maybe doth protested too much.

Also the dressing in drag wasn't a drag disguise at all in the way you mentioned. He dressed in disguise as a pregnant woman so he could walk by Ross' apartment building without raising alarm. He actually seemed annoyed by the whole process but was pleased by how much he didn't look like himself.


I don't get it, how does that contradict what I described?

This guy gets sexually aroused many times in the book but not when he was in the pregnant woman disguise. If when he describes where he picks up the gay guy, he states he needed a body. He had no interest in this guy.


Right, but as I've also said already, this is all according to him—not an omnipotent narrator describing his actual thoughts as they happen—and he's a delusional nutter, so you can hardly take his word for it. When he talks about his record store job and co-worker, it's easy to read between the lines and see who the real creep at that place is. Reading between the lines in general, "he's suppressing his homosexuality" seemed like a possibility to me.

(And anyway, getting sexually aroused by wearing women's clothing means you have a fetish about wearing women's clothing. It's not a gay thing and it would say nothing about that either way. But the circumstances of his doing it, and describing it, in the book seemed to me to be in line with someone desperately suppressing feminine aspects of themselves. I can go into boring detail about if you want but won't if you're not interested. A brief point about it: why'd he go through all the trouble of describing the disguise, and how he liked the effect but not for any fruity reasons or anything, really, instead of just writing "I disguised myself"?)

On another note that might prove the point against him being gay, which I am not sure anyone picked up on, I've read the book twice now and if you read it again, really read it, you will see very cleverly placed clues that were obvious to me that Breen had been with Ross on personal level.


So what are they?

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I don't want to spoil it for someone who might want to read the book.

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Well that shouldn't be a problem; nothing stopping you from using the spoiler tags. Like this!

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Hope this works since I don't usually do spoiler tags Sally writes in many of her letters about seeing a man named David. After one of Douglas Breen's letters where he talks about his young age, blue eyes and good looks Sally mentions David as being young, goodlooking with blue eyes. Belle talks about David seeming not to like her. After Belle is attacked she can't remember her attacker so she never connects David with Douglas. Sally mentions David pressuring her to go on a vacation with him after we already know that Douglas is planning a get away for the two of them. There also other subtle clues. The author does in pretty cleverly and doesn't spoon feed it to the reader.

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It worked!

Ah, that guy. Isn't he just a red herring though? My memory of the book isn't perfect, but as I recall we do get all those clues for a while (I don't know how to say it without seeming like a rude dick, but they aren't very subtle and I think the intention was that he be a suspect as soon as he shows up), but he turns out to be just a gigolo type sponging money from her, which doesn't seem very Douglas of him, and meanwhile Douglas still writes about meeting and sleeping with her at last, etc., after this guy already has.

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but he turns out to be just a gigolo type sponging money from her, which doesn't seem very Douglas of him


Remember Douglas gets fired from the record store and he writes his parents for some inheritance money his grandmother had left him. Parents say that money was already spent on the college troubles he had and they would not give him any money. Douglas needed money to live. Plus he had no job but was somehow sending depost money for a room and flowers for the getaway he was planning.

meanwhile Douglas still writes about meeting and sleeping with her at last, etc., after this guy already has.


When Douglas wrote that to Sally he was describing dreams he had of her the night before, and he does say dreams.

When I say "subtle clues" it's because even though the clues were obvious to me, based on some of the responses I see on this board, it seems like a lot of people didn't catch them.

You also said Douglas isn't a reliable narrator. Well there wasn't one narrator; they all were. Should we assume we can't trust the others either? Belle did seem to make a lot of jokes about Sally's new boyfriend. Belle talks about her dead husband and the possibility of dating. Maybe Belle was lying too and had an attraction to Sally, like Douglas implied. Yes Douglas stretched the truth but it was only when he felt victimized by someone or when he was bragging.

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Nah, I don't mean everyone is equally unreliable--Douglas is the one who thinks Sally's madly in love with him but being blocked from communicating, etc., so clearly we can't trust his perceptions of anything.

I really don't think he's that guy.

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I disagree. It's pretty obvious when he picks up that guy in the gay bar he's more than a little nervous--did you see how much his hand was shaking when he put down the drink? Also if he was really gay don't you think he would have killed the guy AFTER the bj had---ummm----been "completed" instead of during?

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I was talking about the book; never seen the movie I'm afraid. Considering the era it wouldn't surprise me at all if any hints of that were excised right out of the film version.

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I read the book too. Douglas makes it clear he's disgusted with what the guy does to him but he needs the body. Aside from that there is NOTHING in the book that suggests he's gay. I just reread it recently so I know what I'm talking about. In the movie he DOES pick up a guy at a gay bar. No dialogue is exchanged. They go to a roof in a building. The guy kisses Douglas on the neck (although it's pretty obvious the actor is faking it) then goes down in him (off camera). While he's doing this Douglas grabs a razor and cuts his neck. BTW they changed the ending of the book too.

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Yeah, I heard they changed it. The movie ending sounds horrendous, ha ha.

Sorry dude, I don't know what to tell you. I've been a closeted gay guy, I've known closeted gay guys and to me he sounded enough like a closeted gay guy for me to think that might have been one of his issues. Please remember this is as strongly as I was putting it out there: "you could get that interpretation out of his letters if you tried, but then you could get a lot of interpretations out of them." I'm not pretending I found proof that yes, that was absolutely the case.

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OK--guess we got to agree to disagree. I was a closeted gay guy for many years too but I never resorted to violence and I NEVER fell in love a woman or tried to convince myself I was str8. Me and other closeted guys were just pretty quiet on who we were dating. It turns out everybody knew and accepted it (I live in Massachusetts a VERY liberal state) so it was never a big deal. But the Fan was living in NY which is very accepting too. Ah well! Nice talking to you though :)

BTW--in the movie SPOILER!!! He attacks her while she's alone in the theatre. He beats her a little and professes his love for her. He hugs her. She grabs a knife and stabs him to death and stumbles out of the theatre. A much more positive ending than the book.

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Oh my, no, his acts of violence have nothing to do with it (geez, is THAT what people think I'm saying? No wonder it seems to be getting such a chilly response). Totally different category of behavior.

For the rest, though, surely you've known as many gay guys as I do who have major fandom going for glamorous actresses...just no actual sexual attraction, because of course there isn't. And it can't be news to you that there are, or were, guys who weren't merely in the closet but in full-on denial, even to themselves, and went through the motions or tried to force themselves to be attracted to women and/or pretend they already were. Hell, there are guys who went right ahead and got married and fathered children. If I were in that state of denial (which I was once, in Massachusetts in the 90s believe it or not) and was taken by a particular actress like some guys are with Judy Garland or Lady Gaga, I'd be working overtime to convince myself that was full-on attraction to a woman.

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Or he could have been bi

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I agree with Preppy-3... except that in the movie Douglas Breen killed the gay man and left the letter so people would think Breen was dead and Sally Ross would come out of hiding. They he could finish what he started.

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Interesting how none of you guys consider that he might have been bi

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He could have been bisexual.

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I want to know why you think he is bisexual? The book makes it pretty clear that he is not. He's just a guy with a twisted fantasy life. Are you thinking he is because of the bar scene? Think about it realistically. If a man goes into a straight bar and tries to pick up a man who may be straight, it's not going to happen. Plus the time it would take to maybe get lucky in that scenario would ruin his plans. Quickest option is he pretends he's gay and goes to a gay bar and picks somebody up to murder/burn body and make it look like it's him (Breen). Read the book and watch the movie and you will see that Breen is straight.

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I wonder why people keep saying that about the book. "Closeted gay guy" popped up as a possibility in my mind pretty fast when I read it, it's hardly clear that he isn't.

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