MovieChat Forums > Das Boot (1982) Discussion > Who pitied German crew and characters in...

Who pitied German crew and characters in this movie ?


It is impossible not to detest Nazis considering what they have done in six years of war and twelve years of Third Reich. I am not just talking about Holocaust. From invasion of almost every other Eastern and Western European country to looting of priceless artifacts , from shooting of innocent hostages to undimine resistance movements in occupied Europe to slave labour programme those guys were definition of modern barbarians.

At the other hand in this movie when you see remaining German crew of u-booat stark scared , injured , bleeding , in tatters , huddled together in u-boat pen under British bombs you could not feel anything but pity for them. Their boyish cocky naive attitude had gone. They have seen horror , experienced terror , lost their comrades instantly just like them....You realize that they are also victims of Nazis , boys who had no choice but to go war because they do not have any choice in which country they were born in and they do not (could not) know better. This is war and they are in recieving end now....It is impressive to see human face of other side

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The thing was I don't believe the swastika is even displayed in the movie, except on a ceremonial flag as they pull out of the port. Even that is taken down quickly. It's been a while since I saw the film, but I believe the only other allusion made to the nazis was one character's fierce loyalty to "the party" but he is mocked and shut down by the other crew members.

The film shows these soldiers as humans. There is no evidence that they display any fierce anti-semetism or other nazi beliefs. They're just caught up in the nationalistic upheaval of the time, and ultimately fall victim to it as well.

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They're just caught up in the nationalistic upheaval of the time, and ultimately fall victim to it as well.


This is correct. All German soldiers in WW2 were NOT Nazis. They were just soldiers. The real hateful Nazis were mostly in the SS and ofcourse, those around Hitler i.e. at the top of the party.

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____________________________________________
This is correct. All German soldiers in WW2 were NOT Nazis. They were just soldiers. The real hateful Nazis were mostly in the SS and ofcourse, those around Hitler i.e. at the top of the party.
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That's ridiculous. The Wehrmacht had an very important role in Nazi Germany and there is of course a possibility that a private wasn't a Nazi but certainly his superior officers were.

It's just naive to believe that Nazi Germany was run by a small fraction of evil Nazis with little hair and grim faces. It's a fact that the Nazi party and its politics were backed up by the majority of the germans at that time. And keep in mind that a war and especially an industrial genocide involves a lot of planning and manpower (sorry, it's cynical but you know what I mean).

FYI: I'm german and I'm sick of the attitude of some germans to ignore these facts and to proclaim that 'their grandfather was OF COURSE anti-Nazi'. In most cases it's untrue.

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Point taken.

Although I doubt that the common German soldier was fighting mostly because he believed in the facets of Nazi philosophy. It was probably more to do with being caught up in the nationalistic fervor that the propaganda machine brought about.

But yes, you're right otherwise in saying that Nazi Germany wouldn't have done what it did without the support of the majority of the population.

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Even though Wehrmacht did perform atrocities of its own during the war, SS were always the ideologically indoctrinated ones. Even Russians treated them differently, which is to say, the members of SS were, as a rule, not taken prisoner (and they didn`t expect to be, either).



"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan

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"That's ridiculous. The Wehrmacht had an very important role in Nazi Germany and there is of course a possibility that a private wasn't a Nazi but certainly his superior officers were."

Oh? Was Stauffenberg a Nazi? Von Witzleben? Ludwig Beck? Erwin Rommel? How about Hans Langdorff in the Kriegsmarine, who would even refuse to do the "heil hitler" salute, instead sticking to the old navy salute, not to mention sinking 9 allied ships without loss of life, if I remember correctly.

Generally, being German doesn't give you a more objective view, more the other way around. I'm an officer in my army, and have cooperated with german army on many occasions. I have the exact opposite impression of yours. My impression is that the germans are now so obsessed with denouncing their past that they often can't acknowledge that there were good people fighting for the Axis as well. No, not all Wehrmacht officers were Nazi. Actually, Hitler faced quite a bit of opposition from conservative circles of the Wehrmacht.

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Lordpz, let us not make heroes from Stauffenberg, Beck and Rommel. If they were somehow opposing to Hitler and his crew, that doesn't mean they weren't nazis from ideological point of view - they were with the regime and fighted for it. Rommel actually often praised Fuhrer as the true leader. It was just an inner game, the game for power on one side and secret peace talks on the other. I dislike the Discovery/History Channel/BBC image of Rommel who, according to the populi vox, was just a great army commander (no doubt about that actually) and didn't know anything about crimes and true face of the hitlerism. Yes, Stauffenberg felt ashamed of the Reich's racist policy but did Beck feel the same who supported the nazis throughout the 1930ies? Maybe they all did somehow feel that the regime has gone too far at some point and I don't deny their role in August, 22 assassination attempt, that they represented conservative circle as you say, but that doesn't really forgive their unwilling to act in the 1930ies when horrible things have happened in Germany and Central Europe. They were more or less conformist and decided to act only when it became obvious Hitler's people are losing it. Game for power, just as I said. It doesn't make them "good" people.

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Rommel actually often praised Fuhrer as the true leader.

At first, yes. And not because of Nazi ideology, but for the same reason even many Jews praised Hitler in the beginning: Hitler was seen as a man who got Germany back on its feet. In Rommel's case, Hitler was also the man who by conquest restored Germany's honour. Rommel's refusal to weed out Jews among POWs (and even his refusal to segregate black from white prisoners, on the grounds that everyone who fights in the same uniform are equals) should tell you just how much Rommel bought into this whole Nazi ideology thing. Quite the contrary, Rommel almost took pride in being apolitical. And his admiration for Hitler quickly faded not only with the fortunes of war, but also as he found out more about the internal processes and goals of Nazi bureaucracy. His thoughts of conspiracy against Hitler, though, had to do with the way Hitler was not only losing the war, but ruining Germany in the process with this "total war" business. He had no active part in the Stauffenberg plot, however, even though that is the reason he was forced to commit suicide. Of course, he did no about it beforehand, as Speidel had attempted to recruit him, but had kept silent.

As for their "conformist attitude" in the '30s, it is not really our place to judge. It is all good and well to say that "I would have done something", but those are just words. I guarantee you most of those who did not actively oppose Hitler would, at any other time, have said exactly the same thing: "I would not have been silent, I would have done something". It is truly the exceptional character that takes an active part in opposition, however, and such characters deserve praise of course. But it's a bit unfair to condemn people for not being exceptional in this regard. Also, remember that unless you were part of the minorities being persecuted, you wouldn't notice much of the persecution anyway. It's easy with the benefit of hindsight to say that they should have seen the warning flags everywhere, but no one could have predicted the Holocaust in the '30s, unless it was one of those whacky conspiracy theorists that people of any historical period (including the present) are used to ignoring.

Let me ask you this: how active have you been in opposing your government regarding policies you disagree with? Whatever excuse you have, that's the same excuse people in the '30s had for not wanting to stir up trouble for themselves. And as the Endlösung wasn't implemented until 1942 (and even then it wasn't exactly widely publicized), it didn't seem important enough to lose one's head for for most people.

In short, I don't think it is proper to condemn people for certain things unless we've been in their shoes and can honestly say we would have acted differently. It is easy to make moral choices when there are no negative consequences attached.

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amen, you are so right. take a look @valkyrie..great movie.

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Did this movie showed that Stauffenberg was a nationalist, whose opinion on Poland were similar to Hitler's, and that he wanted to turn all people living in Poland into slave labourers?

BTW When you people argue that not every German was a Nazi, don't you forget that Hitler was elected, supported and admired by Germans (Nazi or not - didn't matter). They admired him, because he gave them what they wanted - restored Germany to the status of major power, that Germany lost after WWI (and was humiliated by the treaty of Versailles). Germans thought that they are victims, and they loved Hitler because he made them feel powerful again (just watch documentary "How hitler lost the war" and see how they speak about Hitler).

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Hitler was elected..but even in the sham of an election in March 1933, in a nazi-controlled German state, he didn`t achieve more than 43% of the votes. That means 57% voted for non-nazi parties, and was seen as a dissappointing result by Hitler and leading nazis.

In the last free election in November 1932, the results were far lower for NSDAP (33%).

It is pretty hard to claim that the German people unisonly supported NSDAP, both before and after 1933.

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You point is well taken, but even if slightly less than the majority openly supported the government, well the minority didn't vehemently oppose it either. They just shrugged.

Regular German citizens who turned a blind eye to what was going on ("huh, that's weird, Mister Leibowitz has to wear a star on his coat now? What's for dinner?") are culpable. Same with the Japanese under Hirohito. They sent their sons to conquer the world and commit mass atrocities in China, they approved.

Think of it this way: say you voted for Gore in the 2000 election. Well you don't just get to disown your own responsibility for the invasion of Iraq. You're fair game for anyone looking to retaliate for that. You'd have to be doing absolutely everything in your power to oppose it (or emigrate and denounce your citizenship) in order to be clean of it, nothing short of attempting a coup. As it is, as a taxpayer and obedient citizen, you are tacitly approving of everything done there.

Let's take it further: say that Trump is elected president and actually manages to do what he has said he wants to do. Well even if you voted for his opponent in the election what he does is still on you. When armed INS agents are rounding up illegal immigrants in your neighborhood you don't just get to shrug and say "That sucks, but I didn't vote for him. I hope your kids adjust to their new schools down there okay"

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No german individual is guilty when another german individual does something unless he is helping.
Sippenhaft is a concept the Nazi's did like very much, in our modern world its highly illegal.
Self-protection measures always triump over morally obligation to help someone else.
Voting for somebody does not imply any transfer of rights, consent or liabilities, at the end of the day a politician is still an individual entity with free will, the voter has no right or ability to force this will, therefore there can be no liability.



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A German instructor of mine once put it this way. Of course the Wehrmacht fought in support of the regime running its nation, but to call a German soldier of the Second World War a Nazi is like calling an American soldier of the Viet Nam era a Democrat. Soldiers of both nations and times were called on to fight--they weren't requested to.

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Of course the Wehrmacht fought in support of the regime running its nation, but to call a German soldier of the Second World War a Nazi is like calling an American soldier of the Viet Nam era a Democrat.

Put a lower case "d" on "democrat" and that is an accurate description of both Wehrmacht and US soldiers.

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That's ridiculous. The Wehrmacht had an very important role in Nazi Germany and there is of course a possibility that a private wasn't a Nazi but certainly his superior officers were.


Tell me: does the fact that someone serves as a private or an officer in the US army imply that they agree with all the president's policies? The only policy relevant to their military role is foreign policy, no? So why is it somehow different for Germany 1933-1945?

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It's funny that you people think, that if someone wasn't a Nazi then it meant that he didn't support Hitler. NOT being a Nazi just meant, that you are not a memeber of NSDAP. Do you have to be a memeber of a party to support it? NO.
It seems that you people don't know that Hitler was elected, supported and admired by Germans (Nazi or not - didn't matter). They admired him, because he gave them what they wanted - restored Germany to the status of major power, which Germany lost after WWI (and was humiliated by the treaty of Versailles). Germans thought that they are victims, and they loved Hitler because he made them feel powerful again (just watch documentary "How hitler lost the war" and see how they speak about Hitler).

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Sure it started off like that, but then Hitler assassinated all his political opponents and instituted a quasi-police state.

The germans got men from all their occupied countries to fight british and american forces, how hard do you think it was to get german men, who had no refuge anywhere after the war to fight for them?

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I highly suggest you read this wonder book by William Shirer - "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich". I assure you it will clear up a lot of your misguided prejudices, and most of your ignorance of the politics of the time. That is, if you apply yourself to the material.

Hama cheez ba-Beer behtar meshawad!

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Absolutely right. If we look at the history of German armed forces, the Navy (it's officers and enlisted crewmen) were really a hold out in their allegiance to the new Nazi-fied Germany and Adolf Hitler. For years, navies of many countries obeyed maritime law, to be sure, but would also abide by an unofficial code of the seas where respect and admiration were earned. Hitler would not have understood this anyway; he was a sociopath. The submariners in this really powerful film would not have fought for the Reich, so much as performing their duties as obedient German seamen.

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Even though they are the enemy, you got to know them and feel for them. They were regular men caught up in the war fought by those in power.

Me fail English? But, that's unpossible.
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Let's not forget that any and every influential anti-nazi voice (journalists, educators, ect.) had been long silenced by the time the war started. From the very beginning of the movie, with the drunken Capt. Thompson's speech in the night club, the men expressed their views based on their experiences, not on what they were told to believe. Thompson had just won the Knight's Cross but was obviously ill from all the propaganda. He was beyond caring what would happen if he mocked Hitler. Willenbrock later rails against the higher-ups who did nothing but make speeches while they fought.

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You feel bad for them at the ending, until you remember that they are Nazis

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It's a tough one. You feel for them as men, but then again they are men fighting rather effectively for a bad cause, whether they truly realize it or not.

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I wouldn't have opposed the Nazis if I had lived in Germany during the Third Reich. I'm quite sure none of you would either. First of all, very few people knew about the true extent of the atrocities until the war was over, and the ones who did were probably brainwashed by the propaganda. Secondly, the ones who did oppose didn't live very long. If I had a family to take care of I'd prefer to stay alive, and if that meant going along with the Nazis I would do that.

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Difficult. I had tears in my eyes at the end of the movie and also felt sorry for the crew when they got attacked and when they sunk near Gibraltar. But there was something I disliked when they cheered as their torpedos hit the British convoy. But by the same token, when they resurface and see that lots of British people were still on the ship and have to jump off it, you can see how the U96-crew (well several people) are shocked... Well as I said, it's a hard decision for me what kind of attitude I should have.

My favorite movies...
http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=32690265

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Well trance, I must say as an American I had no problem being sympathetic to the crew. I mean they had a job to do and for the most part they did it honorably.

I think what I have learned most from Das Boot is that common humanity means more than politics!


"A real man would rather bow down to a strong woman than dominate a weak one"

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Yes, I pitied them. IMO they are victims and they are perpetrators. I feel pity for them in both "roles".

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Exactly. Many people in America still refuse to believe we are illegally incarcerating people in Guantanamo and torturing them, even in the face of photos and testimony by the people doing the torture. Waterboarding has even become a bit of a joke.

Considering the flow of information now verses then, we have access to it and still refuse to believe our own eyes and ears. Hard to blame the Germans, especially when even the Americans at the time didn't know the extent of what was happening until they actually found one of the concentration camps.

Anyway, fantastic film. Great soundtrack.

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"Exactly. Many people in America still refuse to believe we are illegally incarcerating people in Guantanamo and torturing them, even in the face of photos and testimony by the people doing the torture. Waterboarding has even become a bit of a joke."


Comparing what is going on in Guantanamo to what was happening to innocent people in Nazi Germany is ridiculous. Its apples and oranges. I am not naive enough to believe everything our government tells us concerning Guantanamo nor am I naive enough to listen to the spin of far left wing radicals who love nothing more than to bad mouth anything which concerns the military. The propaganda flows both ways.

"Anyway, fantastic film. Great soundtrack."

I agree.

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I was comparing the flow of information and how it gives us a completely different perspective, and how even in the face of it people still refuse to believe what's right in front of them. I was NOT comparing the two situations, merely the public's reaction. And considering that there are actual photos of people being tortured, I think NOT believing something that is actually happening is pretty naive.

I am ex-Navy and said nothing bad about the military at all. I appreciate the military and have lots of friends either still in or getting out. Nope, I support our military. That's why they should stop being told to do the wrong thing and be allowed to come home to the people who love them. I'm pretty far left, but I'd have a hard time thinking of myself being a radical. There are plenty of people farther left than I.

Anyway, yes, great soundtrack, great film, and good comment.

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Many people in America still refuse to believe we are illegally incarcerating people in Guantanamo

Probably because the incarceration is not illegal either under international or US law.

and torturing them

The only enhanced interrogation technique used by the US that could possibly be considered torture was waterboarding. It was only used on three people several years ago. No one at Guantanamo was waterboarded there.

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Well, you are demonstrably wrong, but since you apparently won't either believe me or go find out, there's nothing I can do for you.

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If I were wrong, it should be simple to disprove. Telling that you don;t try.

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OK, keeping the detainees without Habeus Corpus was illegal. The Supreme Court said so. Locking up people who were "sold" to us and keeping them without charges was legal, in the strictest sense I suppose, but unethical. So, there you go - illegal and unethical.

As far as torture goes, I guess you didn't hear about all the pictures that were shown to Congress. Look it up. Also, they did a news report on the torture (I don't know which network) - it wasn't just hitting or waterboarding - debasement is torture, too. They made Muslim's eat pork. That may sound funny to you, but if you were convinced your soul was going to Hell because you ate pork, you would be tortured by that. So, there you go - torture.

I know you are going to tell me that neither one of those things are true, so that's all I'm saying on this. Pick a trollish fight with someone else.

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OK, keeping the detainees without Habeus Corpus was illegal. The Supreme Court said so.

There have been a number of Supreme Court decisions regarding legal technicalities involved with the continued detention. One thing that has been consistent is that the Court has permitted the detention to continue.

As far as torture goes, I guess you didn't hear about all the pictures that were shown to Congress

You're right. I didn't. Are you sure you haven't conflated the photos of criminal activity at Abu Ghrab, activity that was investigated and punished by the US, with Guantanamo?

They did a news report on the torture (I don't know which network)

A vague recollections of some TV show is hardly a valid argument. If that's the best you can do, one wonders why you bothered top make a resonse at all to my 2 July 2009 14:55 hours post.

They made Muslim's eat pork.

This is categorically untrue.

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They made Muslim's eat pork.

This is categorically untrue.

From this article - http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/article.php3?id_article=2390: During the trial of Abu Ghraib’s Specialist Charles Graner, ex-detainee Amin al-Sheikh reported that he had been compelled to eat pork and curse Allah.

In fact, that pretty much sums up the whole debate. I did your research for you. You're welcome.

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During the trial of Abu Ghraib’s Specialist Charles Graner, ex-detainee Amin al-Sheikh reported that he had been compelled to eat pork and curse Allah.

So you've finally come up with a source for one claim - and it's from by one of the detainees at Abu Ghraib at the US Army court martial of one of the guards there. Another story here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4165627.stm

Graner was sentenced by the US Army to ten years in prison.

I did your research for you. You're welcome.

Pity I had to redo it to get it right.

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So I wasn't wrong.

Thank you, good night.

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Except for the bits about the US torturing people at Guantanamo (or anywhere else) and holding them there illegally.

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Well, you either believe it or you don't. You apparently don't. Good on you. I have other things to do, now, so go pester someone else.

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Haha, you're a joke. Run when your position gets questioned!

MOVIES BY THE MINUTE --> http://moviesbytheminute.blogspot.com

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HAHA - this conversation was almost a year ago, and I didn't stop posting, he did.

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I'd say if you didn't feel at least some pity for them, then you lost your humanity and aren't much better than any nazi. These men were mostly just soldiers that fought for their country. They weren't any different from soldiers of other nations. The very same mechanisms that turned germany into nazi germany back then are working now on other countries, most prominent example being american. If you are american and can't feel pity for these men, you should seriously ask youself how much the propaganda and nationalism of your conutry has worked on your mind and impaired your objectivity. Guantanamo is surely not on the grand scales of the KZs, but the principle is the same.

If your gouvernment labels someone or a country "terrorist", then no rules of civil apply anymore and the soldiers do whatever they are told to without asking questions because they think they are the good guys. Do they know if the country they are invading has those "weapons of mass destruction" or not? No, they don't, and they don't care. There is really no difference. The principle is the same.

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Guantanamo is surely not on the grand scales of the KZs, but the principle is the same.

You mean locking someone away for being a member of an undoubted terror organization, Al Qaeda, is the same as locking away someone for telling an anti-Nazi joke? That's ridiculous on the face of it, not even taking into consideration the routine brutality, arbitrary murder, overwork, and starvation normal in German concentration camps.

If your gouvernment labels someone or a country "terrorist", then no rules of civil apply anymore

Again, untrue. The United States has been reasonable scrupulous in applying the Geneva Conventions to Iraq and, with a few exceptions, even to people not actually covered by them in Afghanistan. There has been no noticeable reluctance to prosecute and punish soldiers under US military law who have committed war or civil crimes.

There really is no difference. The principle is the same.

Were terrorist attacks on Germany planned and carried out from Czechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark, Norway, the Netherlands, Belgium, or the Soviet Union with the consent of the their governments (or even without)? Were any of them in violation of a ceasefire agreement with Germany? Has the US rounded up millions of members of a religious or ethnic minority in those countries in order to murder them? Feel free to compare routine German anti-partisan actions like Oradour-sur-Glane to any US action in Iraq or Afghanistan. Compare Guantanamo with the Commando Order or the camps for Soviet POW's. Has the US annexed any part of Iraq or Afghanistan?

Once you answer those questions, get back to us.

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Why should I answer those questions? You are unable to understand the nature of comparisons and analogies. It's futile o discuss as long as you don't get that.

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Why should I answer those questions?

It's your argument that current US policy is similar to that of Nazi Germany. Don't you wish to support it?

You are unable to understand the nature of comparisons and analogies.

Oh I understand the nature of those things quite well. I understand, for instance, when two things that aren't really alike are being compared, as is the case here.

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I didn't compare US politics to nazi germany politics. I compared the mechanics that make both of them work. If you can't see similarities, then maybe it worked already on you far too well.

BTW, how did you react to my post so quickly after that big pause? Is it possible on IMDb to subscribe threads or to get email notification?

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I compared the mechanics that make both of them work. If you can't see similarities, then maybe it worked already on you far too well.

If you can see similarities based on what you posted, then you're not very well informed about either Nazi Germany or contemporary America - or you're invested in some ideological foolishness.

BTW, how did you react to my post so quickly after that big pause?

Just coincidence. I just happened to check this board and found your post.

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War is hell. And terror is terror on anyone's son's face. Foreign or otherwise.

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As I saw it, they were simply soldiers, as it turned out, very good ones, bound to do whatever is ordered, even when their logic does not agree at all. The task of passing Gibraltar, for example. They knew it was almost a suicide, but they still tried it.

I wouldn't hold any of soldiers in any war guilty of what's been ordered to do (except for individual misdeeds). They were human beings, mostly did not chose but ordered to fight, and I think they deserve our sympathies all the same.

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If war is hell then why was Cannon Fodder so much fun on the Amiga? I could play that game for hours, laughing maniclly all along. Sometimes I'd laugh so hard that a little pee would seep out.



With your feet in the air and your head on the ground, try this sig with spinach!

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I don't like to see anybody sink and drown but I'd rather it was them than our sailors and convoys. Also I have much less sympathy for the leaders that ordered unrestricted warfare than I do the men in the boats.

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