MovieChat Forums > Superman II (1981) Discussion > Lots of nonsense in this movie

Lots of nonsense in this movie

posted 5 years ago by MaximRecoil (4063)
41 replies | jump to latest

1. An old recording of his mother tells him that he has to give up his powers to be with a human woman? Why? And why wouldn't Superman just ignore that arbitrary "rule" from his long-dead mother? It is not as if it can be enforced, since he had to voluntarily step into the chamber.

2. Where did those random powers come from, such as the "finger beam", telekinesis, teleporting, and amnesia-inducing kisses?

3. So Kent, despite being 6' 4" and weighing 225 pounds, can get molly whopped by a shorter, lighter, older guy without being able to defend himself in the slightest?

4. The Kryptonians wouldn't be able to send each other flying with punches, kicks, etc., because they would all be on a similar playing field. Superman would be stronger than Zod, way stronger than Ursa, and perhaps a bit weaker than Non. If it were possible for Ursa to throw a manhole cover hard enough to send Superman flying backwards, it would have sent her flying backwards even more when she threw it; equal and opposite reaction and all that.

5. How is it that the Phantom Zone is anywhere near Earth? In the first movie, Jor-El said that thousands of years had passed since the destruction of Krypton, and since Kent didn't age much on his trip to Earth, that means he was traveling in his ship at close enough to light speed for time to slow down drastically for him. Zod and company were placed in that sheet of glass thing on Krypton and then just sort of set adrift in space. They should still be thousands of light years from Earth, which isn't even close to being close to being close to being close, etc., to being in range of a near-Earth explosion.

6. You can touch fire / fiery hot surfaces briefly without being [visibly] burned.

Those things are on top of the nonsense that applies to Superman in general, i.e., anyone who knows Clark Kent, upon meeting Superman face-to-face for the first time, would obviously recognize him as Clark Kent immediately.

[–] Truthtalker (1870) 5 years ago

What about the most obvious: speaking on the Moon

[–] MaximRecoil (4063) 5 years ago

Yeah, I forgot about that. Not only will sound not travel in a near vacuum, but without any air to breath, there would be no air in their lungs to vibrate their vocal cords to produce any sound in the first place.

[–] Truthtalker (1870) 5 years ago

And the worst I realized, totally destroy the climax: kryptonians have super-hearing, so they would hear what Supes whispered to Lex

[–] MaximRecoil (4063) 5 years ago

I noticed that too the last time I watched it. That's another one I forgot about.

[–] strntz (10819) 5 years ago

3. So Kent, despite being 6' 4" and weighing 225 pounds, can get molly whopped by a shorter, lighter, older guy without being able to defend himself in the slightest?

Lots of short, old, white dudes are tough as scrap iron.. LOL.

Supes wasn't used to being anything else but invincible until Rocky vinced him. Rocky was a dick who sucker punched and caught him off guard. Clark never felt pain in his life and certainly never saw himself bleed. He was just overwhelmed.

If Clark never regained his power, he could have spent a couple of months training in hand to hand fighting and kicked Rocky's ass anyway.

[–] MaximRecoil (4063) 5 years ago

Yes, Clark got sucker punched from behind at first, but then he got up with a determined look on his face and walked up to Rocky, and still failed to mount any sort of offense or defense.

Keep in mind that when Superman fought his fellow Kryptonians, their attacks hurt him because they were on the same power level as him, yet he continued to fight. The issue isn't that he lost the fight to Rocky, it's that he didn't put up any fight at all.

[–] strntz (10819) 5 years ago

See? He learned something from his beatdown with Rocky. Now that he had experienced pain, he knew what to expect!

[–] Moonglum9 (10713) 5 years ago

anyone who knows Clark Kent, upon meeting Superman face-to-face for the first time, would obviously recognize him as Clark Kent immediately.

I'd agree with you, if it was only that Kent wore glasses, but didn't you ever notice that his hair was parted on the opposite side that Soops was parted on! Who could penetrate that disguise? Nobody, that's who!

[–] AnubisRaydeen (7897) 5 years ago

1. There is a short story out there called Man of Steel, Woman of Tissue (or something like that) that addresses the problem. Clark's sperm are also super and potentially deadly to the initial host as they would disperse at superspeed once the available egg was fertilized. His seed would likely find the closest 100 women as the crow flies and that includes the damage done as they take that closest route through flesh.

2. I hate all the random powers. Sad thing is that that is common in older Superman comics. They would just cook up new powers for him as a substitute for a well thought out ending. The character has a long tradition of sucking.

3. I can accept Clark being completely unready for hth combat, even with the weight/size disparity.

4. Not entirely true. I do agree that the distance Supe flew from the attack is extravagant but he would be thrown back and without Ursa flying an equal amount backward. Doesn't quite work that way (in a world where people can fly and if they were in space, perhaps something like what you cite). I worked in a pizza joint decades ago and we would settle arguments by throwing the massive dough bag at each other in the walk-in freezer. It would always send the target flying backward.

5. I sorta hate this too. Few stories would be worth a shit were it not for coincidence but this was more old-comic-book dumb. Would have been fine if the Phantom Zone was treated as an entirely different plane of existence that had no actual location in our universe but rather required some portal that could be opened anywhere.

6. They sure screwed that scene up. A tiny bit of attention to the details of this scene could have saved it. But nope. Stupid.

7. Even as a child when I saw this, I was upset by them talking in vacuum. I would have accepted some other violation of science if they had only tried. Something.... anything!

High nostalgia value for me though. I still love their big fight but yeah, dumb movie.

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex by Larry Niven.

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

they also explore the story in "Mallrats"

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

Really? I've never seen the film but I'm utterly amazed that Niven has had any exposure outside of the sci-fi crowd. I've seen Clerks and I know there's a lot of popular sci-fi references but I always seen Niven as a (sadly) obscure writer outside of the genre. It's good to see his name out there. I hope he picked up a few fans from that.

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

kevin smith was an absolute fan-boy. still is. i like watching is yt channel occasionally. it's nice to see that he still gets excited over films.

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

It seems like most get excited over film but few over writings. That's what surprised me so much about this.

BTW; They make supplements for your vitamin C deficiency.

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

true, but smith seems like the type who would be very much into sci fi writing as well.

i actually have a few of niven's books, but i haven't read any of them yet. i always have a big queue of books on hold at the library, and his novels always get kicked to the back of the line while i work my way through what the library just got in.

(it took me about 30 seconds to figure out what the hell you were talking about, & i'm the one with the user name, lol).

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

You gotta make time for some of his stuff. He really puts it all together very well.

it took me about 30 seconds to figure out what the hell you were talking about, & i'm the one with the user name, lol

LOL. I'm a bit more of a TD/Berlin School fan but I have lots of Can and other Krautrock too.

[–] MaximRecoil (4063) 5 years ago

"1. There is a short story out there called Man of Steel, Woman of Tissue (or something like that) that addresses the problem. Clark's sperm are also super and potentially deadly to the initial host as they would disperse at superspeed once the available egg was fertilized. His seed would likely find the closest 100 women as the crow flies and that includes the damage done as they take that closest route through flesh."

Only information included in the movie, either explicitly or tacitly, can resolve issues in the movie. Also, that explanation doesn't make sense. If his automatic biological functions were amped up to super levels, then his heartbeat and blood circulation would be very noisy. Imagine a heart beating with millions of times the force of a standard human heart; it would sound like thunder. His normal breathing would cause windy conditions around him. Even blinking his eyes would send gushes of wind and would be loud like when you clap your hands together. Urinating would be like a waterjet cutter, which can cut through steel, let alone a toilet.

"3. I can accept Clark being completely unready for hth combat, even with the weight/size disparity."

Yet he was ready for hand-to-hand combat with his fellow Kryptonians, who, being as strong as him, could, and did, hit him hard enough to hurt him. And those were people with military training.

"4. Not entirely true. I do agree that the distance Supe flew from the attack is extravagant but he would be thrown back and without Ursa flying an equal amount backward. Doesn't quite work that way (in a world where people can fly and if they were in space, perhaps something like what you cite). I worked in a pizza joint decades ago and we would settle arguments by throwing the massive dough bag at each other in the walk-in freezer. It would always send the target flying backward."

When you throw something, it pushes against you with the exact same amount of force that you pushed against it with. If two people are equal, and the person on the receiving end is ready, they won't get sent flying backwards when they catch the bag of dough. In the case of Ursa, she was substantially smaller than Superman, and it follows that she was substantially weaker too.

Imagine Sarah Douglas throwing a bag of dough to Christopher Reeve, who outweighs her by probably 90 pounds and is probably 3 or 4 times as strong. He could obviously catch it without issue. And even if Superman were caught completely off guard, he wouldn't be forced back by any meaningful amount. He has extremely strong muscles to brace himself against the ground, and more importantly, he can propel himself through the air with extreme force (fly at outrageous speeds), and his flying force alone would allow him to way more than counteract the force of that manhole cover. He also has extremely fast reflexes (which is part and parcel of being able to move at extreme speeds), so fast that they would seem instantaneous compared to a human's reflexes.

"High nostalgia value for me though."

Same here. It was the first Superman movie I ever saw. When I was 7 in '82 I watched it on HBO at my neighbor's house quite a few times. I'll always associate that old metallic 3D flying HBO logo with Superman II, since it always played before the movie and it seemed so Superman-esque anyway:

https://youtu.be/M9N9AByVnZ4

[–] AnubisRaydeen (7897) 5 years ago

I think we could go back and forth with energy equals mass times s.o.l. squared examples without changing either's mind. The breakdown in both of our arguments is the inclusion of individuals outside of the reality of science. So there really isn't any empirically correct answer.

I too associate that old HBO logo with Superman. Fine memories. I think I saw it a 2nd time on "ON television."

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

If you can give Superman I a pass for going back in time by reversing the rotation of the Earth then you should find these complaint easy to forgive.

[–] AnubisRaydeen (7897) 5 years ago

I cannot. That part of S1 was among the worst things shown in a movie ever. Top 3 shitty. Worse even than Supe throwing his chest emblem. Outside of a few nuclear level stupid parts, S1 is great, though.

[–] Costumer (1786) 5 years ago

Of course, that is not what happened. He traveled backwards in time by flying faster than light in a counter clockwise direction. What we are seeing is a visual representation of that. From his perspective the earth would be rotating backwards. This is supported by the imagery on earth: the dam repairing itself, toothpaste flowing back into the tube, etc.

This is a power, and method, that has been employed in the comics since at least the 50's.

[–] AnubisRaydeen (7897) 5 years ago

I have read plenty of comics (for over 40 years) and yes, they time travel via super speed. There is a scientific link between speed and time. However, the "counter clockwise" thing you mention is not part of it. Clockwise being an arbitrary nature of our method of measuring duration.

I do respect your effort to excuse this lightweight moment in S1 though. Makes me think that there was a way they could have portrayed it to make it less silly.

[–] Costumer (1786) 5 years ago

I hate to contradict you, but that method of time travel is absolutely canon to the Superman character. Other comics and heroes may do it differently, but that is Superman's method. Does it make sense? No. Its a trope. Counter-clockwise = backwards. Clockwise = forwards. The trope starts when Superboy starts visiting the Legion of Super Heroes in the 30th Century

[–] AnubisRaydeen (7897) 5 years ago

I am familiar with some Supe TT and probably all of Flash's (not to mention others) but I will admit to not having been much of a Supe fan and thus light on exposure to his cannon. So, fair enough. My last salvo would be that his clockwise flight would be at the mercy of polar perspective. ie. only "counter" if viewed from the south pole.

[–] Costumer (1786) 5 years ago

I would have to rewatch to deny or verify. And you are correct, perspective matters.

[–] Martoto (4178) 5 years ago

Regardless of polar perspective, Superman was turning the counter to the direction it normally appears to be turning.

It's like stating that clock hands can't be said to be turning clockwise because you're looking at it from the back.

[–] AnubisRaydeen (7897) 5 years ago

The term "clockwise" is based on a mechanism that we created to measure duration. It isn't some elemental aspect of physics. Your defense only further outlines the problem.

Supes turning the Earth backward via his flying is absolutely idiotic. Costumer's take on it is MUCH better but I'm having fun debating him. It is still dumb but at least seems to link to cannon. I am adopting it for future conversations about it. Still a flaw but a flaw of source material rather than hair-brained film creative license.

[–] Martoto (4178) 5 years ago

Defense of what? I made no defense. Just participated in your chickenshit argument about the term "counter-clockwise". You sound seriously fucking paranoid.

Let me put it this way. If you were able to observe time, or history, running backwards, you would observe clock hands running counter to their usual direction. You would see the earth rotate in the opposite direction from usual, no matter what your perspective is.

Of course it makes no practical sense and it's fundamentally physically flawed in the way reversal of time is shown to be caused by Superman turning the world back. (The rotation of the earth reversing, and clocks running counter-wise, would be the result of time somehow running backwards. Not the other way round.) But it's surely a piece of artistic license intended to give the audience the impression of what Supe is doing.

[–] AnubisRaydeen (7897) 5 years ago

Your aggressive language makes it seem like you are reading hostility in my post where none is intended. I'd continue the conversation with you but since it's "chickenshit," I'll just leave you to your opinion and comfortably exit with mine.

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

#2 is in the spirit of the older Superman comics, in which his gamut of powers wasn't well-defined, and sometimes they would come up with random stuff out of the blue.

[–] Otter (24464) 5 years ago

A few points:

A Kryptonian may have to give up their powers in order to have sex with a human, or it'd be very dangerous for the human. My problem with the scene isn't that Superman desires to live as a human and have sex without worrying whether he'll tear his lady friend in half, it's the idea that he actually CAN give up powers he was born with! Could you or I give up our sense of touch? No! It's built into us, and so are Superman's superpowers!

Regarding the fight at the diner, IMHO Clark was undone by the fact that being punched actually hurt. He'd been invulnerable before, he didn't know how to fight like a human, which includes taking some punches and keeping on fighting anyway.

Some comics nerd might be able to explain the Phantom Zone, whether it has a geographical location, or whether it's another dimension that might be accessible from anywhere in time and space, whether people age while they're there.

Regarding the laws of physics: Beings who can fly and hover in mid-air aren't as subject to the laws of action and reaction like we are. If a Kryptonian can hover in mid-air and throw stuff, they don't necessarily have to fly backwards, because they can hold their position in mid-air as solidly as a human standing on the ground. They can do whatever they want in mid-air and we can't explain it, we can only say that a movie fight involving this power looks believable or goofy. I think it looked believable, for a fight that involves flying, hovering, and personal invulnerability.

[–] MaximRecoil (4063) 5 years ago

"A Kryptonian may have to give up their powers in order to have sex with a human, or it'd be very dangerous for the human."

Dangerous how?

"Regarding the fight at the diner, IMHO Clark was undone by the fact that being punched actually hurt. He'd been invulnerable before, he didn't know how to fight like a human, which includes taking some punches and keeping on fighting anyway."

I already addressed that in two previous posts:

1. "Keep in mind that when Superman fought his fellow Kryptonians, their attacks hurt him because they were on the same power level as him, yet he continued to fight."

2. "Yet he was ready for hand-to-hand combat with his fellow Kryptonians, who, being as strong as him, could, and did, hit him hard enough to hurt him. And those were people with military training."

"Some comics nerd might be able to explain the Phantom Zone, whether it has a geographical location, or whether it's another dimension that might be accessible from anywhere in time and space, whether people age while they're there."

If it's some other dimension, then a nuclear explosion in our dimension wouldn't have any effect on them. Nuclear explosions don't cross dimensions.

"Regarding the laws of physics: Beings who can fly and hover in mid-air aren't as subject to the laws of action and reaction like we are."

Of course they are.

"If a Kryptonian can hover in mid-air and throw stuff, they don't necessarily have to fly backwards, because they can hold their position in mid-air as solidly as a human standing on the ground."

Exactly, and the Kryptonian that got hit with the thing they threw wouldn't fly backwards either, because he can also hold his position in mid-air just as solidly as the Kryptonian that threw the thing, and that's the problem with the scene.

[–] R_Kane (15828) 5 years ago

How is sex with a Kryptonian on Earth dangerous? Try taking Supergirl’s virginity, stud. Invulnerable hymen.

Super-ouchie!

And then consider Superman’s ejaculations. Would it tear right through her body, or send her flying across the room and into a wall? Let’s not even discuss fellatio.

[–] GreenGoblinsOck8 (7402) 5 years ago

I agree R_Kane. Superman's whole body is extremely tough because of all the super strength the sun gives him. I don't know why Maxim Recoil thinks his body isn't that hard. Especially when you take the scene at the end where the bully trucker Rocky punches him and breaks his hand. If simply punching Superman can break your hand, then having sex with him would be like having sex with a concrete wall.

[–] MaximRecoil (4063) 5 years ago

"I don't know why Maxim Recoil thinks his body isn't that hard."

Yeah, except, I never said any such thing. How's the weather out there today in deep, deep left field?

"If simply punching Superman can break your hand, then having sex with him would be like having sex with a concrete wall."

More "words of wisdom" from deep, deep left field. A concrete wall is rough like sandpaper and doesn't have any features of human anatomy whatsoever. Superman's body simply being hard doesn't make sex dangerous in any way.

[–] GreenGoblinsOck8 (7402) 5 years ago

I think you're full of crap. And how is it out of left field? His whole body is so powerful machine gun bullets bounce off him. You're telling me his flesh which is hard and tough enough for bullets to bounce off him wouldn't pose any problem for Lois to have a sex with him? Really?

[–] MaximRecoil (4063) 5 years ago

"I think you're full of crap."

Comical Irony Alert.

"And how is it out of left field?"

Is that a joke? You said:

"I don't know why Maxim Recoil thinks his body isn't that hard."

Yet I never said anything about the hardness of his body, thus your statement is out of deep left field. Your invalid analogy to a concrete wall was out of left field too, because all invalid analogies are inherently out of left field.

"His whole body is so powerful machine gun bullets bounce off him."

So? He can also control his strength, which is why he can pick up a glass or egg without breaking it, or open a door without crushing the doorknob, etc.

"You're telling me his flesh which is hard and tough enough for bullets to bounce off him wouldn't pose any problem for Lois to have a sex with him?"

What does hard and tough have to do with anything? You know that you could easily find about a zillion porn videos online of women using a glass or steel dildo, right? Mere hardness isn't a problem.

"Really?"

Yes, really (obviously).

[–] MaximRecoil (4063) 5 years ago

"How is sex with a Kryptonian on Earth dangerous? Try taking Supergirl’s virginity, stud. Invulnerable hymen.

Super-ouchie!"

We're not talking about Supergirl, and an "invulnerable hymen" wouldn't be dangerous anyway.

"And then consider Superman’s ejaculations. Would it tear right through her body, or send her flying across the room and into a wall? Let’s not even discuss fellatio."

I've already explained why that's absurd in a previous post. Here it is again:

"If his automatic biological functions were amped up to super levels, then his heartbeat and blood circulation would be very noisy. Imagine a heart beating with millions of times the force of a standard human heart; it would sound like thunder. His normal breathing would cause windy conditions around him. Even blinking his eyes would send gushes of wind and would be loud like when you clap your hands together. Urinating would be like a waterjet cutter, which can cut through steel, let alone a toilet."

[–] GreenGoblinsOck8 (7402) 5 years ago

I apologize. I guess I didn't read your post right. Frankly though I wish you hadn't mentioned a woman using a metal dildo cause that sounds horribly painful.

[–] AndyKing1967 (33861) 3 years ago

"Invulnerable hymen"

Back door it is then!

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

You forget that Superman uses super logic. It goes beyond our comprehension. Every plot hole is Superman doing something that only makes us think it is illiogical, while actually making super sense.